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Old
08-22-2011, 02:03 PM
  #1
expatriated_texan
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AVs History

From time to time I like digging around and looking up stories and stats from the past. Not sure if there is enough people interested in this kind of stuff to request a history/legacy type of thread to be stickied but it would be nice to have one where we can post questions, comments, videos and comments based on the past though.

Anyways, I know most folks absolutely hate the +/- statistic but this really caught my eye today.

Joe Sakic
Joe's NHL regular season numbers 1378 Games, 625G, 1016A, 1641PTS, +30

Peter Forsberg
Peter's NHL regular season numbers 708 Games, 249G, 636A, 885PTS, +238

That seemed like a huge +/- differential between two guys that alternated between being #1A/#1B centers throughout their AVs history. What's caused that big of a difference? Is it as simple as Sakic played a helluva lot more games when the AVs weren't primed for domination or was Peter really a better defensive center than we sometimes give him credit for? What would be a good way to evaluate these two guys fairly as to who was the better player for the AVs...simply an aggregate score from say '96-the lockout?

Please don't make this into the something it isn't and give me the hogwash about +/- being a team stat...these guys where both on the ice during the AVs hey day pretty much equally in all situations with all defenders and the same goalies. Their talents and abilities do factor in here to some degree...I'm just trying to figure out how.

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Old
08-22-2011, 02:51 PM
  #2
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joe played on the terrible nordiques, and the bad avalanche for a couple years. Forsberg pretty much played on top teams his entire career.

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08-22-2011, 02:52 PM
  #3
Cypher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatriated_texan View Post
From time to time I like digging around and looking up stories and stats from the past. Not sure if there is enough people interested in this kind of stuff to request a history/legacy type of thread to be stickied but it would be nice to have one where we can post questions, comments, videos and comments based on the past though.

Anyways, I know most folks absolutely hate the +/- statistic but this really caught my eye today.

Joe Sakic
Joe's NHL regular season numbers 1378 Games, 625G, 1016A, 1641PTS, +30

Peter Forsberg
Peter's NHL regular season numbers 708 Games, 249G, 636A, 885PTS, +238

That seemed like a huge +/- differential between two guys that alternated between being #1A/#1B centers throughout their AVs history. What's caused that big of a difference? Is it as simple as Sakic played a helluva lot more games when the AVs weren't primed for domination or was Peter really a better defensive center than we sometimes give him credit for? What would be a good way to evaluate these two guys fairly as to who was the better player for the AVs...simply an aggregate score from say '96-the lockout?

Please don't make this into the something it isn't and give me the hogwash about +/- being a team stat...these guys where both on the ice during the AVs hey day pretty much equally in all situations with all defenders and the same goalies. Their talents and abilities do factor in here to some degree...I'm just trying to figure out how.
Sakic played 7 seasons with Quebec, while Forsberg only had to endure 1 on that awful team. Sakic was -102 in his first 3 years, even though he had 110G-163A-273P during that span.

Also helps that in 2002-2003, Forsberg was +52, playing on a line with Hejduk and Tanguay that like broke every line scoring record, while Sakic only played 58 games and was +4.

If you take +/- from start of Avs existence to the lockout year, Sakic was +129, while Forsberg was +190 .. Forsberg +61 better, and only +13 better during those years if you don't include the 2002-2003 season.

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Old
08-22-2011, 03:35 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
Sakic played 7 seasons with Quebec, while Forsberg only had to endure 1 on that awful team. Sakic was -102 in his first 3 years, even though he had 110G-163A-273P during that span.

Also helps that in 2002-2003, Forsberg was +52, playing on a line with Hejduk and Tanguay that like broke every line scoring record, while Sakic only played 58 games and was +4.

If you take +/- from start of Avs existence to the lockout year, Sakic was +129, while Forsberg was +190 .. Forsberg +61 better, and only +13 better during those years if you don't include the 2002-2003 season.
Joe also seemed to get stuck with the tougher assignment. I remember the 01 finals where it was almost always Joes line out there against the Devils Sykora-Arnott-Elias line while Peter got more favorable matchups that would let him focus on his incredible offensive gifts. I think they were a perfect compliment that way, Peter was there to use his marvelous offensive prowess while Joe was there to just out play other elite players leaving Peter those better oppurtunities to really make the most of them. That's why I'm excited that Staz and Radar are such focus defensive players. With a smart offense and cycling game those two lines could really hold down opponents toughest lines letting Duchene play with some more offensive players like Mueller and Hejduk/Hishon to go in for the kill. The sweet thing for us is Staz has that kind of intelligent offensive game where he can create chances even with less purely skilled guys like Jones, galiardi and hopefully soon Landeskog. Radar starting to get more comfortable with the puck is also a great thing, if he ends up excelling in between Galiardi and Kobasew, Lindstrom or Winnik I could see that line becoming extremely good at cycling the puck around the offensive end and maintaining possession to give our more potent lines more great chances.

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Old
08-22-2011, 03:47 PM
  #5
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Joe also seemed to get stuck with the tougher assignment. I remember the 01 finals where it was almost always Joes line out there against the Devils Sykora-Arnott-Elias line while Peter got more favorable matchups that would let him focus on his incredible offensive gifts. I think they were a perfect compliment that way, Peter was there to use his marvelous offensive prowess while Joe was there to just out play other elite players leaving Peter those better oppurtunities to really make the most of them. That's why I'm excited that Staz and Radar are such focus defensive players. With a smart offense and cycling game those two lines could really hold down opponents toughest lines letting Duchene play with some more offensive players like Mueller and Hejduk/Hishon to go in for the kill. The sweet thing for us is Staz has that kind of intelligent offensive game where he can create chances even with less purely skilled guys like Jones, galiardi and hopefully soon Landeskog. Radar starting to get more comfortable with the puck is also a great thing, if he ends up excelling in between Galiardi and Kobasew, Lindstrom or Winnik I could see that line becoming extremely good at cycling the puck around the offensive end and maintaining possession to give our more potent lines more great chances.
peter didnt play in the 01 finals.

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Old
08-22-2011, 07:47 PM
  #6
HF007
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Sakic played against the top lines while forsberg played against the shutdown lines

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Old
08-23-2011, 02:25 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Joe also seemed to get stuck with the tougher assignment. I remember the 01 finals where it was almost always Joes line out there against the Devils Sykora-Arnott-Elias line while Peter got more favorable matchups that would let him focus on his incredible offensive gifts. I think they were a perfect compliment that way, Peter was there to use his marvelous offensive prowess while Joe was there to just out play other elite players leaving Peter those better oppurtunities to really make the most of them. That's why I'm excited that Staz and Radar are such focus defensive players. With a smart offense and cycling game those two lines could really hold down opponents toughest lines letting Duchene play with some more offensive players like Mueller and Hejduk/Hishon to go in for the kill. The sweet thing for us is Staz has that kind of intelligent offensive game where he can create chances even with less purely skilled guys like Jones, galiardi and hopefully soon Landeskog. Radar starting to get more comfortable with the puck is also a great thing, if he ends up excelling in between Galiardi and Kobasew, Lindstrom or Winnik I could see that line becoming extremely good at cycling the puck around the offensive end and maintaining possession to give our more potent lines more great chances.
Your Avalanche history needs refreshing

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Old
08-23-2011, 03:03 AM
  #8
WarriorOfGandhi
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Man, I remember so many shifts that Forsberg took against the soft underbelly of the 2001 Devils in that Cup Final

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Old
08-23-2011, 03:57 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
Man, I remember so many shifts that Forsberg took against the soft underbelly of the 2001 Devils in that Cup Final
Yeah, he completely disappeared that year, didn't he?

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Old
08-23-2011, 05:01 AM
  #10
WayneBruce
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Although i loved Sakic, I think Forsberg was the overall better player. He was very underrated defensively. I always thought he played against better lines as well, but i might be wrong.

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Old
08-23-2011, 06:51 AM
  #11
ManOnTheMoon
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Yeah, he completely disappeared that year, didn't he?
Tell me about it. That Kamensky- Forsberg- Deadmarsh line was absolutely invisible against NJ.

To give a simple answer to a complex question, Forsberg was better defensively, was only on strong or really strong teams, and was more of a focal point on a given line. Forsberg was a puck carrier, moreso than Sakic. If you stuck two bum wingers with either of them, Forsberg would have the puck 90% of the time, Sakic only 60% or so. So Sakic's +/- is more affected if he had any lousey linemates, compared to Forsberg.

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Old
08-23-2011, 09:00 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Axiom720 View Post
peter didnt play in the 01 finals.
Well I guess I'll take that dunce cap now. Where's the nearest corner?

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Old
08-23-2011, 09:59 AM
  #13
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Man I miss those days.

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Old
08-23-2011, 01:17 PM
  #14
WarriorOfGandhi
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Man I miss those days.
You miss the days when the Avalanche won rings instead of high draft picks? What's wrong with you?

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Old
08-23-2011, 03:05 PM
  #15
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Well..

The difference is still huge (especially in the playoffs) if you ONLY count the years Forsberg & Sakic played on the same team.


Forsberg's +/- Per Game

Regular Season +214 (589 games) | +0.363/game
Playoffs +50 (140 games) | +0.357/game


Sakic's +/- Per Game

Regular Season +136 (694 games) | +0.195/game
Playoffs +2 (157 games) | +0,012/game



Also, i believe that Forsberg is 6th all-time in +/- in the playoffs, behind only players like Gretzky, Kurri, Gregg, Anderson and Huddy (all of them linemates in the 80's Oilers dynasty years).

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Old
02-01-2013, 03:03 PM
  #16
Elever
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Enjoy:




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Old
02-01-2013, 03:49 PM
  #17
The Kingslayer
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Enjoy:



Was that Enrico Cicone at like 30 seconds? Dude looked cray haha. Great find btw

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Old
02-01-2013, 05:23 PM
  #18
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Holy necro!

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Old
02-01-2013, 05:49 PM
  #19
expatriated_texan
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Great vid's...but dude, that's like a 500 day old bump on the thread. Awesome!

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Old
02-01-2013, 08:52 PM
  #20
Elever
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^ I just bumped it because I wanted to post in a history related thread. I end up doing that rather than making a new one sometimes if I don't feel it's "thread-worthy."

Now Joe Sacco won't be forgotten but what saddens me is that Nordiques history sorta is. It's not like it was a great franchise but what do people ever really mention about it other than the massacre.

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