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Old
08-22-2011, 03:20 PM
  #126
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Bob is another factor here. What he did last season is being underrated by a lot. It was worth a shot to give him a year or two to win the job based on what he was able to show in his first year of NA hockey ever.

If it didnt work out, then theres UFA again in a few years. Not every problem has to be solved for eternity immediately.

People are underrating flexibility under the cap here, as well.

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08-22-2011, 03:24 PM
  #127
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The real point, however, is that it was easily predicted (and not just by me) that Vokoun was going to get a far more modest contract, both in term and money... and that was something of great value to the Flyers given everything else. Spongolium's ridiculous assertion that this is all hindsight complaints is laughable largely because he was here when all these conversations were going on, and is well aware (should be) that many folks predicted Vokoun to come in a far lower contract. The "zing" that he's attempting ("you didn't predict he'd be that cheap!" the petulant child cried out) is comical because the predictions were based on the following assumptions.

1) Supply and demand drives markets.
2) Vokoun was going to be in demand ahead of (Roloson, etc.)

The 2nd assumption is where the "failure" occurred, not in the former. Of course, I think TB may come to regret not going after Vokoun after they have to deal with the Caps in their division backstopped by him this year... but we'll see. However, if you'd told me (or any of the others) in the spring that TB and the Avs wouldn't be in on Bryz or Vokoun, it would have been clear that Vokoun was going to get the shaft.
Colorado
Washington
Philladelphia

Two other markets looking for goaltenders. Flyers traded for bryz rights so we effectively took him off the market. Colorado didn't want Vokoun so they trade. Washington is the only market left so they get a great goaltender at a cheap price.

What happens if Bryz doesn't agree to terms with Philly. It's highly unlikely that he signs here in free agency then. So we are effectively looking at the market again, in which only vokoun is available. Maybe Colorado throws the check book at Bryz. Washington gettings into a bidding war with us then. What happens if we lose.

Oh wait, there's no possible way that we could of been left without a goaltender right?

Whats this zing thing you keep talking about. Are people not allowed to argue opinions. You keep stating what could of happened as fact. Whats laughable is your complete in-aptitude to believe that the situation could of gone a different way from that of which you predicted.

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08-22-2011, 03:28 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Whats laughable is your complete in-aptitude to believe that the situation could of gone a different way from that of which you predicted.
You mean other than explicitly stating in this thread that the situation DIDN'T play out as expected other than Vokoun not being expensive?

Work on the reading buddy, cuz the snarky writing is just complete fail after complete fail.

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08-22-2011, 03:32 PM
  #129
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Colorado
Washington
Philladelphia

Two other markets looking for goaltenders. Flyers traded for bryz rights so we effectively took him off the market. Colorado didn't want Vokoun so they trade. Washington is the only market left so they get a great goaltender at a cheap price.

What happens if Bryz doesn't agree to terms with Philly. It's highly unlikely that he signs here in free agency then. So we are effectively looking at the market again, in which only vokoun is available. Maybe Colorado throws the check book at Bryz. Washington gettings into a bidding war with us then. What happens if we lose.

Oh wait, there's no possible way that we could of been left without a goaltender right?

Whats this zing thing you keep talking about. Are people not allowed to argue opinions. You keep stating what could of happened as fact. Whats laughable is your complete in-aptitude to believe that the situation could of gone a different way from that of which you predicted.
It wasn't known that Washington was even in the market. They surprised a lot of people by trading Varly (thus eliminating COL) and grabbing Vokoun. It was subtly done, and good GMing...as opposed to the flamboyant way Philly chased Bryz and essentially gave up all negotiating leverage in the process...leading to a 9 year deal with a NMC that pays very good salary until he's freaking 38.

Washington has done what we should have...gotten Vokoun for a short deal that allows them to assess where Neuvirth and Holtby are at the end of it.

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08-22-2011, 03:35 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It wasn't known that Washington was even in the market. They surprised a lot of people by trading Varly (thus eliminating COL) and grabbing Vokoun. It was subtly done, and good GMing...as opposed to the flamboyant way Philly chased Bryz and essentially gave up all negotiating leverage in the process...leading to a 9 year deal with a NMC that pays very good salary until he's freaking 38.

Washington has done what we should have...gotten Vokoun for a short deal that allows them to assess where Neuvirth and Holtby are at the end of it.
Yeah, that whole thing was a friggin coup.

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08-22-2011, 04:10 PM
  #131
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a) It helps us for 1 year... and you can also offer him more years if you like. You don't think Vokoun would have liked a bit more certainty (and guaranteed money)? Very much doubt Vokoun is thrilled with the contract he signed.

b) He was an UFA, he was available to anyone.

It would help if your arguments began from a departure point that existed within the realm of logic.
i never said he wasnt, I said that contract wasnt...how is that not clear?

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08-22-2011, 04:12 PM
  #132
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i never said he wasnt, I said that contract wasnt...how is that not clear?
Until the moment he signed... he had no contract. So, yes, that contract was available to us. Especially if, say, Washington signs Bryz instead of Vokoun leaving us as the only team standing.

See how that works?

What made Vokoun cheap as hell had nothing to do with us, and everything to do with TB and Colorado opting for other options first.

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08-22-2011, 04:14 PM
  #133
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Nobody ever argued we would get that exact contract. The argument is that Vokoun could have been had for cheaper and for less years.

The simple fact remains: we predicted that Bryz would make more. Vokoun would make less.

That happened. It wasn't hard to see coming, if anything just because of their ages...teams would be less eager to offer Vokoun big money and years, and he'd have less leverage to demand those things.

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08-22-2011, 04:25 PM
  #134
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Until the moment he signed... he had no contract. So, yes, that contract was available to us. Especially if, say, Washington signs Bryz instead of Vokoun leaving us as the only team standing.

See how that works?

What made Vokoun cheap as hell had nothing to do with us, and everything to do with TB and Colorado opting for other options first.
thats not true. Vokoun was available to us. BUT Vokoun 1 year at 1.5 says **** YOU philadelphia! he'd never sign with us for that amount

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Nobody ever argued we would get that exact contract. The argument is that Vokoun could have been had for cheaper and for less years.

The simple fact remains: we predicted that Bryz would make more. Vokoun would make less.
ok, the sky is blue. go on...
Quote:
That happened. It wasn't hard to see coming, if anything just because of their ages...teams would be less eager to offer Vokoun big money and years, and he'd have less leverage to demand those things.
ok, i dont see what we are fighting about.

vokoun @ 3-4 mil is just risky, and is the way we've been handling goaltending for way to long.

I like BOB a lot. I also like Niko Hovinen a lot. But im not going to stake our organization on the premise that BOB will be a legit top 10 goalie in 3 years. Bryz will.

thats the difference in thinking, its not stupid or moronic by Holmgren...its just less risk and less reward.


side note: The Bryz contract is similar to the briere signing (which now is really paying off...believe me i'd be the last to admit briere is worth it. But the little guy is earning his money)

so lets wait and see before we go raging on Homer (i know its fun)

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08-22-2011, 04:39 PM
  #135
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thats not true. Vokoun was available to us. BUT Vokoun 1 year at 1.5 says **** YOU philadelphia! he'd never sign with us for that amount



ok, the sky is blue. go on...


ok, i dont see what we are fighting about.

vokoun @ 3-4 mil is just risky, and is the way we've been handling goaltending for way to long.

I like BOB a lot. I also like Niko Hovinen a lot. But im not going to stake our organization on the premise that BOB will be a legit top 10 goalie in 3 years. Bryz will.

thats the difference in thinking, its not stupid or moronic by Holmgren...its just less risk and less reward.


side note: The Bryz contract is similar to the briere signing (which now is really paying off...believe me i'd be the last to admit briere is worth it. But the little guy is earning his money)

so lets wait and see before we go raging on Homer (i know its fun)

Vokoun at 4 mil for 2-3 years isn't nearly as risky as giving a guy a contract until he's 40 that pays him over 5 mil a year until he's 38, when we have no way to get rid of him unless he wants to allow us to. We could have gone with the safe signing that would allow us to ease Bob into position. Instead, we went with the risky one who was aching for his big pay day, and we definitely fulfilled his wish in that regard.

The Briere contract still has potential to be a huge pain in the ass if his production drops when he's 36 or 37, if not earlier. We aren't out of the water on that one yet. I also prefer to avoid the "well, his contract will improve as the cap goes up!" line of reasoning, because there is a possibility that the cap will stagnate. Hopefully it takes one more big leap before it does, if that happens.

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08-22-2011, 04:45 PM
  #136
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thats not true. Vokoun was available to us. BUT Vokoun 1 year at 1.5 says **** YOU philadelphia! he'd never sign with us for that amount
Why not? Is there something magical about Washington being the only seat left and not the case with Philly?

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08-22-2011, 04:49 PM
  #137
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Why not? Is there something magical about Washington being the only seat left and not the case with Philly?
Maybe Carter ****ed his wife

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08-22-2011, 04:54 PM
  #138
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Why not? Is there something magical about Washington being the only seat left and not the case with Philly?
do you know what a prisoners dilemma is?
if the other guy is going to deny, you can't get off for free.

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08-22-2011, 04:59 PM
  #139
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Vokoun at 4 mil for 2-3 years isn't nearly as risky as giving a guy a contract until he's 40 that pays him over 5 mil a year until he's 38, when we have no way to get rid of him unless he wants to allow us to. We could have gone with the safe signing that would allow us to ease Bob into position. Instead, we went with the risky one who was aching for his big pay day, and we definitely fulfilled his wish in that regard.

The Briere contract still has potential to be a huge pain in the ass if his production drops when he's 36 or 37, if not earlier. We aren't out of the water on that one yet. I also prefer to avoid the "well, his contract will improve as the cap goes up!" line of reasoning, because there is a possibility that the cap will stagnate. Hopefully it takes one more big leap before it does, if that happens.
locking up a top 10 goalie now long-term isnt risky in that you know you will have talent in that position for the foreseeable future.

we don't know if BOB will pan out as a top 10 or even top 15 goalie...Its reasonable to not want to take that risk, when a top 10 goalie is on the market NOW. Tough to pass up on something which is safer and more immediate.

if BOB emerges as a superstar, its a good problem to have. I'd rather be stuck with two great goalies fighting for ice time, than a flop and an expiring Vokoun.


(you'd think that cluster-**** of a goalie situation this year would've shifted peoples views on the crease...)

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08-22-2011, 05:01 PM
  #140
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locking up a top 10 goalie now long-term isnt risky in that you know you will have talent in that position for the foreseeable future.

we don't know if BOB will pan out as a top 10 or even top 15 goalie...Its reasonable to not want to take that risk, when a top 10 goalie is on the market NOW. Tough to pass up on something which is safer and more immediate.

if BOB emerges as a superstar, its a good problem to have. I'd rather be stuck with two great goalies fighting for ice time, than a flop and an expiring Vokoun.


(you'd think that cluster-**** of a goalie situation this year would've shifted peoples views on the crease...)
It's risky when you take him 5 years past the age of 35. How many goalies remain at the top of their game after that? It's unlikely that Bryz will be worth 5.6 million dollars at that point. Do you also think the Luongo contract is good?

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08-22-2011, 05:04 PM
  #141
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It's risky when you take him 5 years past the age of 35. How many goalies remain at the top of their game after that? It's unlikely that Bryz will be worth 5.6 million dollars at that point. Do you also think the Luongo contract is good?
He might not even want to play that long Beef. He can pretty much just end it whenever he wants to. I expect him to be a force for 6 of those 9 years minimum. Taking him to 37? Thats not that old for a goaltender. If he starts declining to the point where he no longer thinks he's competative then he can retire, He loses one year of 5.5, one of 2.25 and one of 1.25. Hardly breaking the bank for him.

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08-22-2011, 05:13 PM
  #142
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He might not even want to play that long Beef. He can pretty much just end it whenever he wants to. I expect him to be a force for 6 of those 9 years minimum. Taking him to 37? Thats not that old for a goaltender. If he starts declining to the point where he no longer thinks he's competative then he can retire, He loses one year of 5.5, one of 2.25 and one of 1.25. Hardly breaking the bank for him.
It's old for a goaltender who has a 5.6 million dollar cap hit. As for ending it whenever he wants, I have trouble believing he'd just leave 9 million dollars behind. At the minimum he'd probably force a buyout. I just see a lot more ways his contract will bite us in the ass down the road than I see ways it will all turn out OK.

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08-22-2011, 06:16 PM
  #143
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It's old for a goaltender who has a 5.6 million dollar cap hit. As for ending it whenever he wants, I have trouble believing he'd just leave 9 million dollars behind. At the minimum he'd probably force a buyout. I just see a lot more ways his contract will bite us in the ass down the road than I see ways it will all turn out OK.
The contract isnt that bad. Its obviously structured to make us competitive for the next 6 years.
Would we be competitive without it? (maybe. but maybe not! who knows if BOB will mature well)

after those 6 years, its up in the air. Im not going to lose sleep over it. 6 years is a long freakin time to be sweating a 5.6mil contract...

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08-22-2011, 06:18 PM
  #144
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It's old for a goaltender who has a 5.6 million dollar cap hit. As for ending it whenever he wants, I have trouble believing he'd just leave 9 million dollars behind. At the minimum he'd probably force a buyout. I just see a lot more ways his contract will bite us in the ass down the road than I see ways it will all turn out OK.
every contract has points when it is good and when it is bad. I think the bottom line is im not as concerned with the bad as you are...and im more excited for the good as well.

when it gets bad, i expect it to go away...thats the great thing of rooting for a team with a rich owner.

(i know its not that easy, but its also not as hard as these boards like to make you think.)

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08-22-2011, 06:24 PM
  #145
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every contract has points when it is good and when it is bad. I think the bottom line is im not as concerned with the bad as you are...and im more excited for the good as well.

when it gets bad, i expect it to go away...thats the great thing of rooting for a team with a rich owner.

(i know its not that easy, but its also not as hard as these boards like to make you think.)
It doesn't matter how rich the owner is, it doesn't erase cap hits or dead space from buyouts.

You truly shouldn't just expect it to go away.

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08-22-2011, 06:26 PM
  #146
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The contract isnt that bad. Its obviously structured to make us competitive for the next 6 years.
Would we be competitive without it? (maybe. but maybe not! who knows if BOB will mature well)

after those 6 years, its up in the air. Im not going to lose sleep over it. 6 years is a long freakin time to be sweating a 5.6mil contract...
We most certainly could be competitive without it. We could have signed Vokoun for less and to a far more flexible contract. That's the thing with this Bryz deal...if it goes wrong, there's no way out of it for a long time.

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08-22-2011, 06:32 PM
  #147
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We most certainly could be competitive without it. We could have signed Vokoun for less and to a far more flexible contract. That's the thing with this Bryz deal...if it goes wrong, there's no way out of it for a long time.
there are a lot of ways to "sneakily" make it happen...thats what our club does well!

don't be surprised if he goes to the KHL when (if) **** hits the fan.

im just saying, leave a little room for optimism.


(we're way too focused on the last 3 years of the deal. And ignoring the first 6 which are a big step over BOB)

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08-22-2011, 06:39 PM
  #148
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there are a lot of ways to "sneakily" make it happen...thats what our club does well!

don't be surprised if he goes to the KHL when (if) **** hits the fan.

im just saying, leave a little room for optimism.


(we're way too focused on the last 3 years of the deal. And ignoring the first 6 which are a big step over BOB)
If the **** hits the fan, what incentive does he have to NOT force a buyout? He holds all the cards. There isn't much sneaky **** that can be done that is compliant with the CBA. Again...name goalies over the age of 35 who are worth 5.6 million dollars of cap hit. Thomas comes to mind. After that, there aren't many. Bryz's contract is simply far too long.

It's more likely that we will only have about 4 years of good, quality play before he begins to slide. After that...who knows. It depends on how fast he slides. I'm tired of this team's "deal with it later" attitude towards contracts and the salary cap.

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08-22-2011, 06:52 PM
  #149
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Until the moment he signed... he had no contract. So, yes, that contract was available to us. Especially if, say, Washington signs Bryz instead of Vokoun leaving us as the only team standing.

See how that works?

What made Vokoun cheap as hell had nothing to do with us, and everything to do with TB and Colorado opting for other options first.
I don't think Washington signing Bryzgalov was likely to happen unless Bryzgalov really wanted to stay in the NHL. I may be incorrect but, I'm pretty sure the team was close to the cap and Bryzgalov likely wanted big money though not necessarily as much as he demanded from Phoenix.

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08-22-2011, 07:06 PM
  #150
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If the **** hits the fan, what incentive does he have to NOT force a buyout? He holds all the cards. There isn't much sneaky **** that can be done that is compliant with the CBA. Again...name goalies over the age of 35 who are worth 5.6 million dollars of cap hit. Thomas comes to mind. After that, there aren't many. Bryz's contract is simply far too long.

It's more likely that we will only have about 4 years of good, quality play before he begins to slide. After that...who knows. It depends on how fast he slides. I'm tired of this team's "deal with it later" attitude towards contracts and the salary cap.
if BOB emerges as a superstar and takes the #1 spot in net, Bryz will go to the KHL for icetime/similar pay.

he holds cards, not all of them.

It was painful to move gagne, but they got it done...Bryz is no different.

4 years of good play and then he will slide?! and you think vokoun is good for the next 3 years??? double standard big time.

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