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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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08-23-2011, 08:37 AM
  #1
Beendair Donedat
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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

Why no toughness added over the off season so far in our bottom 6 or defense? All other priorities were met and addressed, except the usual elephant in the Habs dressing room. The anti-fighting fairies will be out I'm sure to criticize but it's a legitimate concern, specifically when every other divisional rival in the North East is much tougher. Guys like Vandermeer (defense), Carkner, Clarkson, Rupp, Konopka, Winchester etc... All could be obtained and would add muscle to an extremely soft lineup. You guys ever watch Subban, Cole, or Pacioretty drop the gloves? It's like watching Christians vs Lions.

And please don't mention the Laraque experiment - he said numerous times he didn't want to fight and said specifically he wouldn't fight if he was traded (from his Oiler days).

So why no toughness? Ryan White will try bless his heart but he's an average middleweight at best. Moen isn't much better.

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08-23-2011, 08:42 AM
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I like your post. It means that the offseason is over and hockey starts tonight!

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08-23-2011, 08:42 AM
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Speculation: Please stop.

Toughness is not the same thing as fighting. Cole was # 8 in hits last season, drives the net and takes a beating every game. I'll take his "toughness" any day over some jerk who can only play 6 minutes a game then go lose a fight.

No toughness added on D, have you ever heard of Yemelin? Really?

Do we have to trot out the stupid "I wanna fighter!!!!" argument every other week? This is getting very lame.

If you're going to criticize management, at least suggest some alternatives, players they should have signed, who would fit the "toughness" criteria that you're looking for, etc. If not, it just comes off as whining.

I can do the same thing:

"How come managment didn't add any 50 goal scorers this off season? Don't they want to win?"

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08-23-2011, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Why no toughness added over the off season so far in our bottom 6 or defense? All other priorities were met and addressed, except the usual elephant in the Habs dressing room. The anti-fighting fairies will be out I'm sure to criticize but it's a legitimate concern, specifically when every other divisional rival in the North East is much tougher. Guys like Vandermeer (defense), Carkner, Clarkson, Rupp, Konopka, Winchester etc... All could be obtained and would add muscle to an extremely soft lineup. You guys ever watch Subban, Cole, or Pacioretty drop the gloves? It's like watching Christians vs Lions.

And please don't mention the Laraque experiment - he said numerous times he didn't want to fight and said specifically he wouldn't fight if he was traded (from his Oiler days).

So why no toughness? Ryan White will try bless his heart but he's an average middleweight at best. Moen isn't much better.
Emelin.

In terms of drafting? Tinordi, Beaulieu

If you ask me this is just habs fans grasping at straws at this point. The people who won't ever be happy never will be. Once we add some more toughness it will be too much or we'll lack that high end talent, and then once we add that people will say we don't have enough of this or that. Truth is addressing a weakness takes more than one UFA period. Maybe the guys they wanted weren't available and they didn't want to sign somebody else this year instead of waiting until next year. Who knows but honestly it's growing tiresome. We are addressing toughness. Moen, White, Emelin, all can play tough, Tinordi, Beaulieu, both projected to be tough guys to play against and both are our previous last two 1st round picks.

Not every team can be the Detroit Red Wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Speculation: Please stop.

Toughness is not the same thing as fighting. Cole was # 8 in hits last season, drives the net and takes a beating every game. I'll take his "toughness" any day over some jerk who can only play 6 minutes a game then go lose a fight.

No toughness added on D, have you ever heard of Yemelin? Really?

Do we have to trot out the stupid "I wanna fighter!!!!" argument every other week? This is getting very lame.

If you're going to criticize management, at least suggest some alternatives, players they should have signed, who would fit the "toughness" criteria that you're looking for, etc. If not, it just comes off as whining.

I can do the same thing:

"How come managment didn't add any 50 goal scorers this off season? Don't they want to win?"
This. You know Ottawa has a bunch of fighters if you like them so much they likely are looking for more fans

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08-23-2011, 08:44 AM
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whismer
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Is it the same problem we had in the last playoff... against the Big Bad Bruins and all their big tough guys

The toughness problem is a myth....

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08-23-2011, 08:48 AM
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im still on the fence with this, but the only guy i would have signed was konopka.

The only team that bothers me in terms of "fighting" is the bruins. The other teams may be physical, but they dont start brawls with us. With our additions, as far as physical goes, we are fine. Toughness may be another story.

Some pointing out Emelin. He hasnt played 1 minute of NHL hockey, so im not gonna say yay or nay to him being physical.

If a forward is coming into our zone, the only guy right now, who would lay him out is subban. We chose skill/defense over size/toughness.

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08-23-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Why no toughness added over the off season so far in our bottom 6 or defense? All other priorities were met and addressed, except the usual elephant in the Habs dressing room. The anti-fighting fairies will be out I'm sure to criticize but it's a legitimate concern, specifically when every other divisional rival in the North East is much tougher. Guys like Vandermeer (defense), Carkner, Clarkson, Rupp, Konopka, Winchester etc... All could be obtained and would add muscle to an extremely soft lineup. You guys ever watch Subban, Cole, or Pacioretty drop the gloves? It's like watching Christians vs Lions.

And please don't mention the Laraque experiment - he said numerous times he didn't want to fight and said specifically he wouldn't fight if he was traded (from his Oiler days).

So why no toughness? Ryan White will try bless his heart but he's an average middleweight at best. Moen isn't much better.
Cole and Yemelin definitely add toughness, but moreso the hitting than fighting kind.

I would like to see us add Winchester though...

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08-23-2011, 08:52 AM
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Beendair Donedat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Speculation: Please stop.

Toughness is not the same thing as fighting. Cole was # 8 in hits last season, drives the net and takes a beating every game. I'll take his "toughness" any day over some jerk who can only play 6 minutes a game then go lose a fight.

No toughness added on D, have you ever heard of Yemelin? Really?

Do we have to trot out the stupid "I wanna fighter!!!!" argument every other week? This is getting very lame.

If you're going to criticize management, at least suggest some alternatives, players they should have signed, who would fit the "toughness" criteria that you're looking for, etc. If not, it just comes off as whining.
Cole was playing for a contract and got a massive overpayment.

No guarantees that Yemelin makes the team, or that his style translates well into the NHL level.

I suggested several players, maybe try reading it again.

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08-23-2011, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Cole was playing for a contract and got a massive overpayment.
...by putting up numbers generally consistent with the rest of his career to date?

And if you think that's a "massive" overpayment...not really sure what to say. Except that you might as well stay out of the UFA market altogether if you're not willing to overpay.

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08-23-2011, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whismer View Post
The toughness problem is a myth....
Talk about it.

I wonder why it always come back. Intimidation is a choice.

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08-23-2011, 09:09 AM
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Beendair Donedat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
...by putting up numbers generally consistent with the rest of his career to date?

And if you think that's a "massive" overpayment...not really sure what to say. Except that you might as well stay out of the UFA market altogether if you're not willing to overpay.
Look at his production levels. Puts up big numbers in 2005 - 2006 to get a big contract, almost doubling his career goal total from 18 to 30. Gets a huge raise and his production went from 29,22,16 and 11 goal seasons respectively before rediscovering his touch last year. Granted he had some major injuries but still his production in contract years is much higher, and I'd be shocked if his goals and point totals didn't drop off significantly this season.

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08-23-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whismer View Post
Is it the same problem we had in the last playoff... against the Big Bad Bruins and all their big tough guys

The toughness problem is a myth....
totally agree. Why would we want to spend more time in the box?

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08-23-2011, 09:21 AM
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Every good team has an identity. Ours is speed, skill, excellent special teams and a balanced attack that buys into a two-way system and constant puck support. Tough guys and goons stick out of a system like that like a sore thumb. A weak link in the chain if you will. Guys who can fit into a 3 line attack system AND can fight aren't exactly a dime a dozen. But then again maybe I'm just a fairy I don't know.

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08-23-2011, 09:23 AM
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totally agree. Why would we want to spend more time in the box?
No kidding. Not like we aren't taking enough penalties as is. I really would like to see a bit more disciplined Habs team this year. Seems we took a lot of really bad penalties last year.

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08-23-2011, 09:28 AM
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Talk about it.

I wonder why it always come back. Intimidation is a choice.
Funny, most teams don't agree.

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08-23-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Cole was playing for a contract and got a massive overpayment.

No guarantees that Yemelin makes the team, or that his style translates well into the NHL level.

I suggested several players, maybe try reading it again.
Reason nobody mentions the players you named is because all of them are bad options at best. Even Konopka is heavily overrated by the toughness crowd. The guy would be lucky to play 10 minutes without being a liability let alone 5.

Most of them would be #14 behind Palushaj. When one of your AHL prospects is better than most of the guys you name then it becomes pretty apparent why we didn't got that way. I'd rather Aaron Palushaj who actually has talent get some ice time than Konopka being a liability for 5 minutes beating up a Bruins player which won't stop the eventual cheap shot on Pacioretty, Cammy, Subban, etc anyways. The Bruins are a cheap shot artist team. Getting Konopka won't change that it will just give us one instigator penalty, give him a 5 minute major and play will commence. Probably Horton goes and scores a goal on that powerplay. It doesn't do anything for us and he wouldn't play more than 15 games a season because JM would bench his scrub ass. Talent wise he doesn't even come close to touching a team like ours. Why do you think Philly, Boston, all these typical "Konopka" type teams don't take him. Because they rely on skill not just wasted roster spots who fight once a game. Those teams have management that aren't stupid and realize a fighter with no hockey talent doesn't win you games. Skilled players do and if they're tough/physical it's a bonus. You don't sacrifice talent for fighting ability plain and simple. This is why Konopka can only play for a bottom feeder. Big shock a team trying to end up last took him.


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08-23-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Why no toughness added over the off season so far in our bottom 6 or defense? All other priorities were met and addressed, except the usual elephant in the Habs dressing room. The anti-fighting fairies will be out I'm sure to criticize but it's a legitimate concern, specifically when every other divisional rival in the North East is much tougher. Guys like Vandermeer (defense), Carkner, Clarkson, Rupp, Konopka, Winchester etc... All could be obtained and would add muscle to an extremely soft lineup. You guys ever watch Subban, Cole, or Pacioretty drop the gloves? It's like watching Christians vs Lions.

And please don't mention the Laraque experiment - he said numerous times he didn't want to fight and said specifically he wouldn't fight if he was traded (from his Oiler days).

So why no toughness? Ryan White will try bless his heart but he's an average middleweight at best. Moen isn't much better.
If drop-the-gloves toughness is the only unaddressed need, I would be interested to hear your views on how Gauthier addressed the team's 22nd ranked offense.

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08-23-2011, 09:35 AM
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I wouldn't have made toughness a priority per se. But at the same time, I think we've had a lengthy stretch of off-season with an opening up front and on D, and I've thought players like Winchester and O'Brien (before he signed) would have been decent candidates to slot into those openings. I have no idea if management looked at them or thought of them or not; maybe they did but the players just didn't want to sign with us. Who knows.

If the team picked out other solid choices for those depth openings instead of the tougher options, I'd be pretty content. The toughness isn't the most important thing. Just having quality depth is. Toughness is kind of a minor bonus on top. So far we've got Woywitka in the D slot, and nobody up front (default assumption until proven otherwise, therefore, is that we're letting young players battle in camp for that spot).

I'm thinking I'd rather have had Winchester and O'Brien than, say, Blunden or Engqvist and Woywitka. Relatively minor concern, but hey, that's what we're down to. The rest of the summer must have gone pretty well if that's what's left.

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08-23-2011, 09:59 AM
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I wouldn't have made toughness a priority per se. But at the same time, I think we've had a lengthy stretch of off-season with an opening up front and on D, and I've thought players like Winchester and O'Brien (before he signed) would have been decent candidates to slot into those openings. I have no idea if management looked at them or thought of them or not; maybe they did but the players just didn't want to sign with us. Who knows.

If the team picked out other solid choices for those depth openings instead of the tougher options, I'd be pretty content. The toughness isn't the most important thing. Just having quality depth is. Toughness is kind of a minor bonus on top. So far we've got Woywitka in the D slot, and nobody up front (default assumption until proven otherwise, therefore, is that we're letting young players battle in camp for that spot).

I'm thinking I'd rather have had Winchester and O'Brien than, say, Blunden or Engqvist and Woywitka. Relatively minor concern, but hey, that's what we're down to. The rest of the summer must have gone pretty well if that's what's left.
I'd probably have taken a look at O'Brien too, doesn't mean we'll be dead in the water because we didn't go after him. I'm fairly confident that if they didn't sign him it either had to do with him not wanting to play here or more to do with future UFA's they'd prefer to target. Not every player is going to want to be our stop gap and people need to realize PG might not want to sign Konopka or O'Brien for 3 years when 1 year down the line another better fit UFA will become available. I'd have definitely looked at O'Brien but people make it seem like not getting him or Konopka is the end of the world. We don't need either player, both would be a luxury and frankly could easily be replaced this coming UFA period.

Plus there is always deadline. I don't think Konopka is too important to his team though like plenty of others seem to think. O'Brien is another story but let's give Emelin a chance first before we sign his replacement

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08-23-2011, 10:07 AM
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I'm all for adding a fighter . . . if he can play hockey

Chris Neil circa 2006 would be perfect. But guys like that are tough to find

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08-23-2011, 10:08 AM
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Why don't you go follow the Bruins if all you want is toughness. If you want to follow a fast team with skill then you can follow the Canadiens.

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08-23-2011, 10:18 AM
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I want this team to sign another John Ferguson, why haven't they done it yet!!!?

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08-23-2011, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whismer View Post
Is it the same problem we had in the last playoff... against the Big Bad Bruins and all their big tough guys

The toughness problem is a myth....
I'm with you 100% here , when comes playoff time ...

what irritates me is having to watch our players getting it in mid november from other teams' goons (players that don't even feature in the playoffs sometimes). If pronger rips into one of our players, or lucic ... its not the same thing than if its Powe or Carcillo, thornton, winchester ect ... They don't get suspended for their cheap shots, and even if they did, the problem isn't what we do once they've attacked our players, its all about preventing it as much as possible.

I do believe we could be healthier comes playoff times if some of our guys can keep the goons busy and away from plek, gio, cammy, markov ...ect in Some of the games, say 20 . I do believe Yemelin, Moen, Cole, subban and White can be those guys, but we shouldn't be affraid to throw in a guy like henry instead of spacek every now and then. (gives us a little more sandpaper, and it rests spacek) Keep playing hockey while having an ace or two in your pocket in case things get out of hand... just make sure teams know it won't go unanswered ... like it has this year.

Our players go in the playoff with their bodies feeling like they played 100 games ... and that's part of the reason why our tank will be empty in round 2 and that the bruins can keep doing 7 games series all the way to the end, in my humble opinion. I prefer our style and I think we are the better team, but if we are not fresh comes playoff time every single year, its a problem.


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08-23-2011, 10:25 AM
  #24
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Guess you have never seen Yemelin the dude drops them from what I have seen and can really rage. That being said worrying about 6-7th dmen dropping the gloves is far from my mind.

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08-23-2011, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Why no toughness added over the off season so far in our bottom 6 or defense? All other priorities were met and addressed, except the usual elephant in the Habs dressing room. The anti-fighting fairies will be out I'm sure to criticize but it's a legitimate concern, specifically when every other divisional rival in the North East is much tougher. Guys like Vandermeer (defense), Carkner, Clarkson, Rupp, Konopka, Winchester etc... All could be obtained and would add muscle to an extremely soft lineup. You guys ever watch Subban, Cole, or Pacioretty drop the gloves? It's like watching Christians vs Lions.

And please don't mention the Laraque experiment - he said numerous times he didn't want to fight and said specifically he wouldn't fight if he was traded (from his Oiler days).

So why no toughness? Ryan White will try bless his heart but he's an average middleweight at best. Moen isn't much better.
Or maybe it's you that don't get it. I mean, it's clear by now that we are a solid team who fights for each others. What would a goon do to really help the team? We now have 4 balanced line. A goon wouldn't help us in our puck possession game that's for sure.

And the important thing is during the playoffs and we proved that we were a great playoff team...

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