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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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Old
08-23-2011, 10:31 AM
  #26
Goldthorpe
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Management brought Cole - a clear need - and drafted an entire class seriously skewed toward size, but somehow they "don't get it" because they failed to sign a bottom-6 guy with size. Oh noooes.

LOL.

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08-23-2011, 10:37 AM
  #27
Nails Jenkins
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Originally Posted by windycity View Post
I'm all for adding a fighter . . . if he can play hockey

Chris Neil circa 2006 would be perfect. But guys like that are tough to find
Totally agree. I would take Neil v.2006 but wouldn't take the 2011 version. The current team is built on skill and signing players who can't keep pace would be a hindrance, not a help. If they can fight AND play then I'm all for it.

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08-23-2011, 10:42 AM
  #28
THE HOFF
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Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
Or maybe it's you that don't get it. I mean, it's clear by now that we are a solid team who fights for each others. What would a goon do to really help the team? We now have 4 balanced line. A goon wouldn't help us in our puck possession game that's for sure.

And the important thing is during the playoffs and we proved that we were a great playoff team...
the season is long, and there were some liberties taken against the habs...no one can deny that ... I will go on and say Maxpac was the victim of a lack of sandpaper. Have white/moen ... taking a good run or two at Chara every game we play the bruins and he would have forgot about maxpac's shove. that simple. Doesn't make chara's actions right, but its the sad truth imho.

the season is 82 games, and we seriously underestimate the work of blue collars in the process of getting in the playoffs. Once you get there, your best players have to bite in the lemon, and skills has to prevail, and will. But guys in the ''Kaleta mold'' need their attention diverted away from our top players as much as possible.

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Old
08-23-2011, 10:50 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Every good team has an identity. Ours is speed, skill, excellent special teams and a balanced attack that buys into a two-way system and constant puck support. Tough guys and goons stick out of a system like that like a sore thumb. A weak link in the chain if you will. Guys who can fit into a 3 line attack system AND can fight aren't exactly a dime a dozen. But then again maybe I'm just a fairy I don't know.
Yes yes yes. This answers the posters question about management. This is management's philosophy on how to build a team in Montreal.
Some people like it some don't.
Hopefull at some point it translates into a Stanley Cup.

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Old
08-23-2011, 10:51 AM
  #30
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Sam Pollock, one of the all time great GMs, saw his Canadiens intimidated one year in the playoffs by the leafs and promised that would never happen again. Went to get John Ferguson. Added Terry Harper, Ted Harris & Jacques Laperriere. They weren't all great fighters but they added grit.

When Bowman came in, they had Chartraw, Robinson, Lapointe, Reisborough, Tremblay, Lambert and even Savard could deliver a knock out.

When Bowman left we had Knuckles Nilan, McPhee, Ludwig, Nyrop, Odelein.

This team lacks these sort of players. White is a poor man's Reisborough and Moen is at the end of his career.

I agree you win by creating a team's identity and sticking to it. But all those Flying Frenchmen teams had hard nosed gritty players who could respond in kind to a Thornton or his sort. Jeeze, even the Rocket made his name by knocking out players.

And for all those that claim that we're a speed, skilled team, how much speedier and skillful are we when compared to the Bruins, the Black Hawks, The Canucks, the Sharks, the Flyers, the Lightning, the Sabres, the Red Wings? Not much, if at all.

I'm not saying this is a disaster but I'd love to have a Thornton or a McQuaid on this team. It would add a whole new dimension to the mix.

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Old
08-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by whismer View Post
Is it the same problem we had in the last playoff... against the Big Bad Bruins and all their big tough guys

The toughness problem is a myth....
Well said, this team will be a yougher team to play against this season...would still be nice to see one of our guys put a beating on one of the B's...

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08-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #32
Bieber fever
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Moen at the end of his career ? Lol


I actually believe we are only 1 player away from not being a soft team ....

Cole
Pac
Moen
AK
White
Gill
Subban
Yemelin
Eller

If only we can add another piece to this mix

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Old
08-23-2011, 11:23 AM
  #33
Ollie Williams
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Why no toughness added over the off season so far in our bottom 6 or defense? All other priorities were met and addressed, except the usual elephant in the Habs dressing room. The anti-fighting fairies will be out I'm sure to criticize but it's a legitimate concern, specifically when every other divisional rival in the North East is much tougher. Guys like Vandermeer (defense), Carkner, Clarkson, Rupp, Konopka, Winchester etc... All could be obtained and would add muscle to an extremely soft lineup. You guys ever watch Subban, Cole, or Pacioretty drop the gloves? It's like watching Christians vs Lions.

And please don't mention the Laraque experiment - he said numerous times he didn't want to fight and said specifically he wouldn't fight if he was traded (from his Oiler days).

So why no toughness? Ryan White will try bless his heart but he's an average middleweight at best. Moen isn't much better.
I think management got it pretty well to be honest... Sounds like you didn't.

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08-23-2011, 11:26 AM
  #34
Boris Le Tigre
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I think it was dumb not to acquire some serviceable toughness. This is a problem that has been an ongoing issue. What are we going to do... acquire some during the season with one of our other assets going in exchange.

It's completely against conventional wisdome that we would dress two young blue chippers - one a goalie - and the other an agitator - without someone on-ice to protect them.

Subban was in like 5 fights last year. That's too many. Some buddy wants to fight Subban they should have to go throw some meat head door man first.

This doesn't include Emelin, who is reputed to be an agitator nor Markov who vanishes due to injury when the going gets tough.

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Old
08-23-2011, 11:40 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Funny, most teams don't agree.
Funny, Guy Boucher seems to disagree:

"[Guy Boucher] soutient qu'il ne se laisse jamais intimider: «L'intimidation, c'est un choix. C'est un pouvoir qu'on donne à l'autre. C'est nous qui en sommes la cause. Dans la vie, je ne suis jamais intimidé», dit-il.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chroniqueu...ur-dhommes.php

But what does he know loll...

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Old
08-23-2011, 11:59 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
Or maybe it's you that don't get it. I mean, it's clear by now that we are a solid team who fights for each others. What would a goon do to really help the team? We now have 4 balanced line. A goon wouldn't help us in our puck possession game that's for sure.

And the important thing is during the playoffs and we proved that we were a great playoff team...
Bingo, I think we are a team that has the ability to role 4 lines and not have liabilites. Pouliot was our liability last year taking stupid penalties and causing turnovers more than scoring chances.

I think this year is going to be a most solid forward group in awhile. Could it get better obviously yes, as we have a decent amount of cap left and could use 1 more rugged player(who doesn't necessarily have to fight, but be able to crash the nets, dig the corners and lay the body.) Our problem is not intimidation, it was our lack of discipline that cost us games, causing our players to be shorthanded and tired near the end of some games. The other is health.

Discipline, good ice smarts, skill, will be our weapon. We've have seen what we are capable of when healthy and disciplined. The sky can be the limit as we have only added to the good team we have since the overhaul.

A lineup of grit, scoring, passing, shutdown, PP, PK, great goaltending. We are only going up from hear. We are moving our way up to cup contenders surely enough. Not by adding unwanted pieces like goons, but by adding pieces that will further us and actually bring us qualities we need with that specific player and give us a role for the Habs.

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Old
08-23-2011, 12:02 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ra View Post
Funny, Guy Boucher seems to disagree:

"[Guy Boucher] soutient qu'il ne se laisse jamais intimider: «L'intimidation, c'est un choix. C'est un pouvoir qu'on donne à l'autre. C'est nous qui en sommes la cause. Dans la vie, je ne suis jamais intimidé», dit-il.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chroniqueu...ur-dhommes.php

But what does he know loll...
Stan Bowman, Joe Newindyke and Lou Lamoriello disagree with you and Guy Boucher. You guys like to pretend it's not a need because you know management won't do anything about it. And please, calm down before putting Emelin and toughness together, we still have no idea how it will translate from the KHL to a league 100x tougher. We have a bunch of players that fan bring a physical edge now, but we're still in need of that 1 player that will lead them, that will let his teammates play their game 100% of the time, not when they're sure they won't get punched or threatened back.

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Old
08-23-2011, 12:03 PM
  #38
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Ferguson and Nilan are not dime a dozen players
Nilan was an integral part of one of the best shutdown lines in Habs history and was regarded as one of the best fighters.
Konopka is not Nilan or Ferguson - even though I wouldn't have minded adding him (FO% + fighting)
I agree with the Boucher response; you only get intimidated if you let them get to you
Now this year Pouliot is on the Bruins-so if he's coming from a "softer" team does that mean that the Bruins are softer than last year?
Find me a fergie or knuckles and I'm in! even happy to overpay.
If you want strictly pugilistic talents, i'm not so sure that will impact winning in any way

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Old
08-23-2011, 12:17 PM
  #39
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As long as Spacek doesn't ever drop the mitts again

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Old
08-23-2011, 12:36 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Stan Bowman, Joe Newindyke and Lou Lamoriello disagree with you and Guy Boucher. You guys like to pretend it's not a need because you know management won't do anything about it. And please, calm down before putting Emelin and toughness together, we still have no idea how it will translate from the KHL to a league 100x tougher. We have a bunch of players that fan bring a physical edge now, but we're still in need of that 1 player that will lead them, that will let his teammates play their game 100% of the time, not when they're sure they won't get punched or threatened back.
This would be great, but if that player is a guy who can only manage to play on the 4th line what good is he going to do? he won't be going against other team's top 9 just for the matchups. All he would be good for is fighting the other teams 4th line pugilist, which isn't really what creates an intimidation factor.

The only fighters that this team needs are ones that can play on the top 3 lines, and there are not many of them in this league.

Also enough with this Konopka BS! He takes the worst penalties in the world and we are already an undisciplined team, why would we want to be penalized even more!?

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Old
08-23-2011, 12:42 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Ra View Post
Funny, Guy Boucher seems to disagree:

"[Guy Boucher] soutient qu'il ne se laisse jamais intimider: «L'intimidation, c'est un choix. C'est un pouvoir qu'on donne à l'autre. C'est nous qui en sommes la cause. Dans la vie, je ne suis jamais intimidé», dit-il.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chroniqueu...ur-dhommes.php

But what does he know loll...
Mclean - coach of Ottawa and Stanley Cup Winner said intimidation is still part of the game. What does he know, though?

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Old
08-23-2011, 12:51 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
what irritates me is having to watch our players getting it in mid november from other teams' goons (players that don't even feature in the playoffs sometimes). If pronger rips into one of our players, or lucic ... its not the same thing than if its Powe or Carcillo, thornton, winchester ect ... They don't get suspended for their cheap shots, and even if they did, the problem isn't what we do once they've attacked our players, its all about preventing it as much as possible.
This. Over and over again.

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08-23-2011, 01:05 PM
  #43
Joe Cole
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The fact that even if this topic has been beaten into the ground, some guys just cannot seem to understand the difference between being tough and fighting, is completely frustrating.

Tough is getting hit, and getting up instantly and continuing to be focused on getting the puck into the net.
Tough is hitting someone on the forecheck, stealing the puck and making a play.
Tough is going to the net without slowing down, even if you are being hacked.
Tough is being able to overpower and outwit a defender in front of the net.
Tough is stepping between a vunerable team mate and an opponent, not backing down, and not taking a penalty.
Tough is dropping it against a guy who just seems to force the issue too much against you, when your team will not be hurt by a potential penalty.

One heavy weight tapping on another heavyweight's shin pad and asking "you wanna go" at a faceoff.... well, that is fighting.

That type of staged fight does nothing to intimidate, protect your players, or get respect. That is to amuse a specific % of the fan base.

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Old
08-23-2011, 01:21 PM
  #44
CGG
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
the season is long, and there were some liberties taken against the habs...no one can deny that ... I will go on and say Maxpac was the victim of a lack of sandpaper. Have white/moen ... taking a good run or two at Chara every game we play the bruins and he would have forgot about maxpac's shove. that simple. Doesn't make chara's actions right, but its the sad truth imho.
What a load of crap. Ever since Maxpac gave Chara a friendly little shove, Chara was going to do something stupid. If Moen or White ran Chara a few more times in between the two events do you really think that would have changed Chara's decision making process leading up to the stanchion?

Fighters are absolutely no deterrent to cheap shots. None whatsoever. If they were, then why do so many Bruins end up with concussions?

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Old
08-23-2011, 01:29 PM
  #45
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I had to laugh reading the title of this thread!
On the contrary, the Habs management very much seems 'to get it', as evidenced by several off-season moves:

- The brought in Yemelin who could possibly be the best NHL rookie defenseman this year primarily because of his defense and toughness;
- White is graduating into a full-time role on 3rd/4th line (he had a crazy number of hits in his limited icetime last season, and clearly demonstrated his ability to stick up for a teammate...)
- Cole is a big bodied goal scorer who goes to the net...
- In case you havn't noticed, there is no place on a winning NHL roster for a goon - no thanks Mssrs. Winchester, Konopka, Carker, et.al...
- The Habs' 2011 draft picks were primarily big-bodies (6 out of 7 are listed at 6'1" or more) and other depth acquisitions made by Gauthier and staff (Blunden, Woywitka, Mitera, Willsie, Trotter, Berger), with few exceptions (Brodeur?)...

I havn't been as happy with my GM since the days of Mr. Pollock! Keep up the good work M. Gauthier...

(p.s. I suppose the whiners will always whine...)

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Old
08-23-2011, 01:30 PM
  #46
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What a load of crap. Ever since Maxpac gave Chara a friendly little shove, Chara was going to do something stupid. If Moen or White ran Chara a few more times in between the two events do you really think that would have changed Chara's decision making process leading up to the stanchion?

Fighters are absolutely no deterrent to cheap shots. None whatsoever. If they were, then why do so many Bruins end up with concussions?
I was going to bring this up but knew someone else would. Agree 100% it's very much speculation based on very little if anything. Pretty sure a 1st year psych student could even tell you this wouldn't change a thing.

Chara isn't a robot programmed to go after the last guy who pissed him off. He went after Max because Max was a cocky rookie and gave him a baby shove after pwning the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by expos4ever View Post
I had to laugh reading the title of this thread!
On the contrary, the Habs management very much seems 'to get it', as evidenced by several off-season moves:

- The brought in Yemelin who could possibly be the best NHL rookie defenseman this year primarily because of his defense and toughness;
- White is graduating into a full-time role on 3rd/4th line (he had a crazy number of hits in his limited icetime last season, and clearly demonstrated his ability to stick up for a teammate...)
- Cole is a big bodied goal scorer who goes to the net...
- In case you havn't noticed, there is no place on a winning NHL roster for a goon - no thanks Mssrs. Winchester, Konopka, Carker, et.al...
- The Habs' 2011 draft picks were primarily big-bodies (6 out of 7 are listed at 6'1" or more) and other depth acquisitions made by Gauthier and staff (Blunden, Woywitka, Mitera, Willsie, Trotter, Berger), with few exceptions (Brodeur?)...

I havn't been as happy with my GM since the days of Mr. Pollock! Keep up the good work M. Gauthier...

(p.s. I suppose the whiners will always whine...)
Here's the quick hater response for you so that you don't have to bother skimming through the rest of the thread :

Yemelin? He isn't proven! Our management couldn't know something we don't
White? He's a lower-middle weight ***** at best!
Cole? He doesn't fight <insert embarrassingly bad Cole fight video>
Konopka? But but but he played well for a team aiming to be in last place
Big bodies? None of those guys will ever make the NHL, Tinordi is a ***** who beats up on guys smaller than him and rarely wins a fight. Beaulieu? This isn't 2015 bro

That pretty much sums up all of their comments in response to your solid points.

PS: Hope to see more of you around here, we need more optimists to overshadow the pack of haters

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Old
08-23-2011, 01:31 PM
  #47
Andy
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I found a solution to this problem'

http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

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Old
08-23-2011, 01:33 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Why no toughness added over the off season so far in our bottom 6 or defense? All other priorities were met and addressed, except the usual elephant in the Habs dressing room. The anti-fighting fairies will be out I'm sure to criticize but it's a legitimate concern, specifically when every other divisional rival in the North East is much tougher. Guys like Vandermeer (defense), Carkner, Clarkson, Rupp, Konopka, Winchester etc... All could be obtained and would add muscle to an extremely soft lineup. You guys ever watch Subban, Cole, or Pacioretty drop the gloves? It's like watching Christians vs Lions.

And please don't mention the Laraque experiment - he said numerous times he didn't want to fight and said specifically he wouldn't fight if he was traded (from his Oiler days).

So why no toughness? Ryan White will try bless his heart but he's an average middleweight at best. Moen isn't much better.
I don't think you get. Habs management does NOT want to build a team based on bruisers. Despite you and other fans calling for us to sign a fighter to make you're blood lust a reality, fact is that's not what the Habs are about.

The Habs are a team based on speed and skill, not fighting. As for the lack of size/toughness, we did do something about that and solidified our top 6 with the signing of Cole and same for our D with Yemelin. Both of these additions add depth, size and toughness without sacrificing skill or speed.

I'd much rather add toughness with players who can play a regular role than sign Laraque type players ANY day of the week.

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Old
08-23-2011, 01:40 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I found a solution to this problem'

http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15
Have been saying this for weeks. If people are so upset with how the team is run go follow a team that is run the way you like. Nobody has a gun to your head. The real fans who know this team can win on skill and speed will stay here and laugh it up when we do win the cup.

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08-23-2011, 01:42 PM
  #50
LePoche69
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Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
Why don't you go follow the Bruins if all you want is toughness. If you want to follow a fast team with skill then you can follow the Canadiens.
That is a very strange comment.

Boston is a fast team with skills too. And they won the cup.

I find it boring to read many posters stating that toughness is dramatically lacking on the Habs team, and others stating that it is a myth.

I think that, as always, the truth may lie in the middle. Winning 4 rounds of playoffs hockey do ask for more toughness than the Habs have, I think. But it probably can be achieve with many resistant and big players, not necessarily tough. Do Habs have enough big and resistant players? I'm not sure.

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