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MLD2011 - Sir Montagu Allan SF - (1) Eden Hall Warriors vs. (4) Thunder Bay Twins

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Old
08-22-2011, 01:01 PM
  #1
Velociraptor
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MLD2011 - Sir Montagu Allan SF - (1) Eden Hall Warriors vs. (4) Thunder Bay Twins

Eden Hall Warriors

GMs: vecens24 & TheDevilMadeMe

Head Coach: Claude Julien
Assistant Coach: John Muckler

Nick Mickoski - Billy McGimsie - Nikolai Drozdetsky
Ulf Dahlen - Mike Ribeiro - Marian Stastny
Sami Kapanen - Steve Sullivan - Roland Pettersson
Dave Tippett - Larry Patey - Randy McKay (A)

Jack Evans - Mike O'Connell
Walt Buswell (C) - Brian Campbell
Christian Ehrhoff - Garth Butcher (A)

Johnny Mowers
Bert Lindsay

Spares = Matt Cooke, Jeff Carter, Paul Martin

PP1: Ulf Dahlen - Billy McGimsie - Nikolai Drozdetsky - Mike O'Connell - Brian Campbell
PP2: Nick Mickoski - Mike Ribeiro - Marian Stastny - Steve Sullivan - Christian Ehrhoff

PK1: Larry Patey - Dave Tippett - Jack Evans - Garth Butcher
PK2: Sami Kapanen - Roland Pettersson - Walt Buswell - Mike O'Connell
PK3: Steve Sullivan - Nick Mickoski - D - D

vs.

Thunder Bay Twins



Coach: Dave Tippett
Asst: Floyd Smith

Jack McDonald - Ivan Boldirev - Mikael Renberg
Steve Payne - Dave Gagner (A) - Mark Napier
Dan Maloney (C) - Patrik Sundstrom - Scott Young
Scott Hartnell - Brendan Morrison - Colin Patterson
Tim Hunter, Jim McFadden

Al Hamilton (A) - Ted Graham
Mark Streit - Marcus Ragnarsson
Dave Hutchison - Randy Manery
Pierre Bouchard

Pelle Lindbergh
Roman Cechmanek

PP1: Jack McDonald - Ivan Boldirev - Mark Napier - Mark Streit - Al Hamilton
PP2: Steve Payne - Dave Gagner - Mikael Renberg - Randy Manery - Scott Young
PK1: Patrik Sundstrom - Colin Patterson - Marcus Ragnarsson - Ted Graham
PK2: Brendan Morrison - Scott Young - Dave Hutchison - Randy Manery


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08-22-2011, 01:08 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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raptor, please edit the original post to reflect the lineup we have posted in the Roster Thread.

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08-22-2011, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
raptor, please edit the original post to reflect the lineup we have posted in the Roster Thread.
Sure thing, thought the assassination thread would be the most accurate edition of your roster.

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08-22-2011, 01:46 PM
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I've modified my defensive pairings as well (as per roster thread).

Please use:

Hamilton - Graham
Streit - Ragnarsson
Hutchison - Manery

Thanks!

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08-22-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
raptor, please edit the original post to reflect the lineup we have posted in the Roster Thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJudge View Post
I've modified my defensive pairings as well (as per roster thread).

Please use:

Hamilton - Graham
Streit - Ragnarsson
Hutchison - Manery

Thanks!
Done and done.

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08-22-2011, 02:44 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Thanks for the edit, raptor.

Judge - congratulations on beating a very solid Warroad team in the first round.

I'll post opening thoughts on this series later today.

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08-22-2011, 04:49 PM
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Coaching

I'll start with coaching and goaltending since they are both easy comparisons between these teams.

Coaching

We're all very familiar with Dave Tippett and Claude Julien - both highly thought of modern coaches. Both have a Jack Adams, and both have excellent records in their short times in the league.

Tippett has a slightly better regular season winning percentage. Julien coached his team to the Cup last year and has received votes for the Adams trophy on more occasions.

Is there a point in comparing them further? I think they are of more or less equal quality.

Assistant coach is where Eden Hall has a big advantages. John Muckler won 5 Cups in his career - 2 as assistant coach, 2 has co-coach, and 1 as head coach. That's a record that's unmatched by other assistants in this draft. Floyd Smith had a short but great run in the mid-70s but isn't in Muckler's class here.

Muckler will have a similar role under Claude Julien as he did under Glen Sather - he'll run the practices and help devise tactics that Julien will then implement in game. Muckler was more defensive-minded than Sather - famously refusing to play Ruzicka in the playoffs in 1990 because of his lack of defense - so he should have no problems working with Julien.

Conclusion: Head coaches are close, but if you think having a strong assistant coach helps, then Eden Hall has to have the advantage behind the bench.

Goaltending

This is actually a very easy comparison, since both goalies had very short but brilliant peaks before their careers ended - Lindbergh because he tragically died, Mowers because he went off to serve in World War 2 for three years (a year longer than Turk Broda and Frank Brimsek served) and when he returned, future HHOF Harry Lumley was firmly entrenched in the starter's role.

Both goalies were expected to be stars for years to come (an article on Mowers said the author would be highly disappointed if he didn't end up one of the greatest goalies of all time). And both were denied the opportunity for reasons that weren't their faults. Comparing either guy to a full career guy is tricky, but since each man had 3 full seasons, a straight up comparison of their accomplishments is possible.

Regular season:

Mowers finished 1st and 3rd in All-Star voting. Lindbergh finished 1st and 6th in All Star voting (1st and 7th in Vezina voting).

Mowers competed against Broda and Brimsek; Lindbergh played during goaltending's dark ages in the mid 80s but competed against a greater quantity of goaltenders.

Slight advantage Mowers.

Playoffs:

Lindbergh was fantastic in the 1985 playoffs, a key player as his team made a surprising run to the finals. Mowers, on the other hand, was a key player in three straight trips to the finals, including a Cup in the 3rd year.

When Mowers signed a new contract after his second season, he was credited with "carrying" Detroit to the finals in his first two seasons:
Quote:
Fast moving Johnny Mowers, whose agility in the nets has twice carried Detroit to the Stanley Cup finals, is equally quick at the cashier's cage
The Calgary Herald, Oct 19, 1942
I find that it is usually hyberbole when a goalie is talked about "carrying" a team, but it does indicate great performances in both seasons.

After Mowers won the Cup in his third season (his third straight trip to the finals, at least one writers considered him the star of the playoffs:
Quote:
Star of the playdowns was goalie Johnny Mowers who climaxed a season in which he won the Vezina Trophy (for lowest goals scored on him) by blanking Boston with two shutouts on successive nights and these action pictures from Boston demonstrate how Mowers dominated the finals games.
-The Calgary Herald, Apr 13, 1943

As great as Lindbergh was in 1985, it can't compete with a guy who was great on three occasions.

Advantage Mowers.

Conclusion: Both goalies had short but brilliant careers in the NHL, but Mowers accomplished more during his peak than Lindbergh did and has to be considered the better goalie here.

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08-22-2011, 10:06 PM
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Good post TDMM. Here's to a good series.

I'm not going to post who I feel has the advantage; everyone is inherently biased towards their own team. Instead, I'll present my take, hope people read it, and let them come to their own conclusions.

So, in response, a bit of food for thought:

Coaches

When comparing the coaches, it is important to consider the quality of competition, and the quality of their rosters. Specifically Tippett in Phoenix was able to take a rather mediocre roster and turn the team into a playoff threat (in the highly competitive Western Conference and Pacific division). He has done nothing but win everywhere he's gone, and made teams play above the sum of their parts.

Julien has a Stanley Cup on Tippett, but he accomplished this with a much stronger roster than anything Tippett has had access to. Infact, it can be argued his strong teams often underachieved - especially when the chips were down.

For example, Julien was fired heading into the playoffs when he failed to prepare a stacked New Jersey team:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Lamoriello
"I don't think we're at a point of being ready both mentally and [physically] to play the way that is necessary going into the playoffs," said Lamoriello on the Julien firing.
Julien gets his teams to play well defensively, but often at the expense of offense. Tippetts system is frustrating to opponents, but allows the players to be effective in all three zones.

Goaltenders

When comparing any player through different eras, you need to be aware of the circumstances each player played in. Playoff success in the original 6 was significantly easier to achieve than it was (is) in the modern game. It's a simple game of numbers: 33.3% of NHL goaltenders made the stanley cup final each year in the original six; 16.7% of NHL goaltenders won the cup each year in the O6. When you factor in the greater propensity for dynasties with less teams, a few good playoff runs in a row becomes even more common.

Prior to his time in North America, Lindbergh was strong enough to lead his nation in the 1980 Olympics. Lindbergh needed to overcome the European stigma as one of the first to make the leap to North America. In response to the challenge, he dominated the AHL leaderboard and awards ceremony (AHL First All-Star Team, Harry "Hap" Holmes Memorial Award (fewest goals against - AHL), Dudley "Red" Garrett Memorial Award (Rookie of the Year - AHL), Les Cunningham Award (MVP - AHL) (1981)). His NHL exploits have been discussed already.

More to follow..


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08-23-2011, 01:08 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJudge View Post
Good post TDMM. Here's to a good series.

I'm not going to post who I feel has the advantage; everyone is inherently biased towards their own team. Instead, I'll present my take, hope people read it, and let them come to their own conclusions.

So, in response, a bit of food for thought:

Coaches

When comparing the coaches, it is important to consider the quality of competition, and the quality of their rosters. Specifically Tippett in Phoenix was able to take a rather mediocre roster and turn the team into a playoff threat (in the highly competitive Western Conference and Pacific division). He has done nothing but win everywhere he's gone, and made teams play above the sum of their parts.

Julien has a Stanley Cup on Tippett, but he accomplished this with a much stronger roster than anything Tippett has had access to. Infact, it can be argued his strong teams often underachieved - especially when the chips were down.

For example, Julien was fired heading into the playoffs when he failed to prepare a stacked New Jersey team:
Lou L fired Julien because the veteran Devils players had lost their respect for him. Given how Julien's career went in Boston and what happened to NJ in the 3 seasons afterwards - I donno, maybe coaching wasn't the team's biggest problem?

Also, how exactly was NJ "stacked" after the lockout, yet Tippett's teams in Dallas were "mediocre?" Tippett only coached in Phoenix for 2 seasons; he spent most of his career coaching a very solid Dallas team.

Speaking of underachieving, that very good Dallas Stars team had a 21-26 record in the playoffs under Tippett.

Again, it's not necessarily Tippett's fault they lost, but the idea that Julien's team in NJ was stronger than any team Tippett ever had in Dallas is ridiculous.

Quote:
Julien gets his teams to play well defensively, but often at the expense of offense. Tippetts system is frustrating to opponents, but allows the players to be effective in all three zones.
Considering Boston had the second best even strength goal differential in the regular season last year (after Vancouver), I'm not concerned.

Julien's teams in Montreal and NJ did regularly finish in the bottom half in offense, but those teams weren't exactly stacked full of good offensive players. Regardless, I'm well aware of Julien's weakness. This line is in the profile I made of him: "Julien was sometimes considered "too defensive" in Montreal and New Jersey and a guy who hurt his own team's offense. I think he learned and became a more rounded coach in Boston."

Despite that criticism, his overall record is no worse than Dave Tippett's record behind the bench. Julien didn't finish 1st, 6th, 7th, 10th, 11th in Jack Adams voting for no reason. True, he wasn't as well-rounded a coach in Montreal and NJ as he's been the last 3 years in Boston. But you know what? If he had been as good his entire career as he is in Boston now, he'd be a decent ATD-calibre coach (especially in a 40 team draft). As is, he's a solid MLD coach, close enough to Dave Tippett in quality where neither team has an advantage at head coach. I mean, I could play the "my guy has a Cup and yours doesn't hahaha" game but I don't feel like it.

Eden Hall's advantage behind the bench lies in John Muckler. Muckler has a lot of experience as either assistant or co-coach of the high flying Oilers. As indicated above, he won 5 Cups in various coaching capacities with the team.

Muckler will handle changing the forwards in-game, while Julien will handle the defensemen. Both men will work on coaching strategies between games.

Quote:
Goaltenders

When comparing any player through different eras, you need to be aware of the circumstances each player played in. Playoff success in the original 6 was significantly easier to achieve than it was (is) in the modern game. It's a simple game of numbers: 33.3% of NHL goaltenders made the stanley cup final each year in the original six; 16.7% of NHL goaltenders won the cup each year in the O6. When you factor in the greater propensity for dynasties with less teams, a few good playoff runs in a row becomes even more common.
Small correction: There were 7 teams in the league for Mowers' first two trips to the finals.

Anyway, I am well aware of the circumstances. If both goalies had been to the finals once, I would have given the advantage to the goalie in the much larger league, assuming they were both major parts of the run. But that's not the case - Mowers went to the finals 3 straight years, and actually won the whole thing once. Like Lindbergh, he was considered a major reason the team did as well as it did in the playoffs. 3 great playoff performances is significantly more than what Lindbergh did in the playoffs, so much so that it transcends era.

Mowers has the best playoff record of any goalie in this draft, I think. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be the best goalie in the playoffs here. I don't believe in throwing out regular season records for the ATD/MLD playoffs.

But when Mowers already had a slightly better regular season record than Lindbergh, the fact that he is also more accomplished in the playoffs serves to widen the gap between them.

Quote:
Prior to his time in North America, Lindbergh was strong enough to lead his nation in the 1980 Olympics. Lindbergh needed to overcome the European stigma as one of the first to make the leap to North America. In response to the challenge, he dominated the AHL leaderboard and awards ceremony (AHL First All-Star Team, Harry "Hap" Holmes Memorial Award (fewest goals against - AHL), Dudley "Red" Garrett Memorial Award (Rookie of the Year - AHL), Les Cunningham Award (MVP - AHL) (1981)). His NHL exploits have been discussed already.

More to follow..
Lindbergh was 22 by the time he made his NHL debut and 23 when he became a full-time starter. Mowers was 24 when he made his NHL debut - a normal age for players in the smaller league. I really don't see how Lindbergh was held back by the circumstances compared to Mowers.

Doing well in the AHL in the 1980s when all the best players were in the NHL is pretty meaningless. Johnny Mowers "had a fine amateur career" according to Joe Pelletier for people care about such things.

How important was Lindbergh to Sweden's bronze medal in the 1980 Olympics? It appears that Sweden played 8 games, and Lindbergh saw minutes in 5 of them.

We have the complete Golden Stick voting for the "best player in Europe" for Lindbergh's entire career in Europe before he came to the NHL and he only ranked once - finishing 9th in 79-80. Pretty good but not great. Interestingly enough, Eden Hall's own Marian Stastny finished 8th in Golden Stick voting that season. (Source) Your guess is as good as mine as to what that adds to Lindbergh's legacy.


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08-23-2011, 03:36 AM
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Your post about Lindbergh's accomplishments before he came to the NHL made me think.

I still don't put into stock into what he did in the AHL, as the modern AHL is just a league of guys who aren't in the NHL yet or never will be.

But what he did at a high level in Europe before the age of 22 does mean something, and I think I underrated him just a tad.

He does have the one significant season in Europe - 78-79 - when he finished 9th in Golden Stick voting. You guess is as good as mine as to where that places him in the world that year. But I think it's enough to make his "regular season" record basically equal to Johnny Mowers.

Mowers still has the advantage in the playoffs, however. You can give Lindbergh some credit for the bronze medal in the 1980 Olympics if you like (though how much is uncertain as I'm not sure he was Sweden's undisputed starter). But even so, playing 5 games in the Olympics is definitely not as impressive as any of Mowers' three good playoff runs.

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08-23-2011, 12:55 PM
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I mean, I could play the "my guy has a Cup and yours doesn't hahaha" game but I don't feel like it.
doesn't that really count as playing it?

also - WOW. TheJudge is a keeper.

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08-23-2011, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lou L fired Julien because the veteran Devils players had lost their respect for him.
The team you've put together isn't exactly a group of rookies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Given how Julien's career went in Boston and what happened to NJ in the 3 seasons afterwards - I donno, maybe coaching wasn't the team's biggest problem?
Undoubtedly coaching can only do so much. Yet Lou is among the most respected hockey minds in the NHL. If he feels that his coach did not prepare his team for the playoffs, then that's whose opinion I will take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Also, how exactly was NJ "stacked" after the lockout, yet Tippett's teams in Dallas were "mediocre?" Tippett only coached in Phoenix for 2 seasons; he spent most of his career coaching a very solid Dallas team.
I did not say that Dallas had a mediocre team. I said Phoenix was (is) a mediocre team, and he caused them to play above the sum of their roster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Again, it's not necessarily Tippett's fault they lost, but the idea that Julien's team in NJ was stronger than any team Tippett ever had in Dallas is ridiculous.
Once again, I did not say that NJ was stronger than Dallas. I said Julien achieved a Cup with a stronger roster (Boston of this year) than anything Tippett has had (and I stand behind that).

In regards to New Jersey, what I did say is that Julien failed to prepare a strong NJ team for the playoffs, and was fired for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Considering Boston had the second best even strength goal differential in the regular season last year (after Vancouver), I'm not concerned.

Julien's teams in Montreal and NJ did regularly finish in the bottom half in offense
Bit of an understatement. His teams boast such finishes as 20th, 16th, 20th, 27th, 24th, and 30th in GPG. Good offensive seasons are an anomaly.

I will agree that he's become a better rounded coach the last few years. However, that 30th place finish was with Boston.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Anyway, I am well aware of the circumstances. If both goalies had been to the finals once, I would have given the advantage to the goalie in the much larger league, assuming they were both major parts of the run. But that's not the case - Mowers went to the finals 3 straight years, and actually won the whole thing once. Like Lindbergh, he was considered a major reason the team did as well as it did in the playoffs. 3 great playoff performances is significantly more than what Lindbergh did in the playoffs, so much so that it transcends era.
Mowers boasts 19 playoff wins in his three playoff performances. Lindbergh put up 12 in one playoff performance. Mowers sample size is small, the playoffs he played in were short, and the number of opposing teams was lacking. It is a fallacy to say that 3 runs must be better than 1, when the three runs were significantly easier to achieve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Mowers has the best playoff record of any goalie in this draft, I think. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be the best goalie in the playoffs here. I don't believe in throwing out regular season records for the ATD/MLD playoffs.

But when Mowers already had a slightly better regular season record than Lindbergh, the fact that he is also more accomplished in the playoffs serves to widen the gap between them.
65 wins in 152 starts is better than 87 wins in 157?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lindbergh was 22 by the time he made his NHL debut and 23 when he became a full-time starter. Mowers was 24 when he made his NHL debut - a normal age for players in the smaller league. I really don't see how Lindbergh was held back by the circumstances compared to Mowers.

Doing well in the AHL in the 1980s when all the best players were in the NHL is pretty meaningless. Johnny Mowers "had a fine amateur career" according to Joe Pelletier for people care about such things.
My point about his domination of the AHL primarily relates to his reliency and compete-level. He came over to the NHL as one of the first European goalies. Despite being more talented than Philly's other goalies, he was relegated to the minors - in a foreign country were he barely spoke the language. Infact, no European goalie prior to Lindbergh had held down an NHL starting job for any notable length of time. While many people would (and did) fold and head home, he proceeded to destroy the minor leagues and force his way into NHL stardom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How important was Lindbergh to Sweden's bronze medal in the 1980 Olympics? It appears that Sweden played 8 games, and Lindbergh saw minutes in 5 of them.
He started and played the entire game in those 5 (300 minutes). That would be the team's number 1 by most definitions.


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08-23-2011, 01:28 PM
  #13
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I hold Lindbergh ahead of Mowers and that isn't a dig at Mowers at all.

Pelle Lindbergh was the best goalie in during TV-pucken, while this is a U-16 tournament it is very big and tough tournament. I could go into detail but I won't as it's pre junior and is a minor accomplishment.

He made the Tre Kronors roster without playing a game in the SEL. This was and is still very rare.

Lindbergh is also the only goaltender not to lose against Team USA in 1980. Pelle made such a memorable performance that when asking people who was on the 1980 roster most would tell you Pelle Lindbergh. Only a few would say any other name. Lindbergh was rested during the games vs Norway.

There is no doubt in my mind that if it wasn't for his death we would be discussing him in the ATD.

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08-23-2011, 02:39 PM
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The team you've put together isn't exactly a group of rookies.
Neither are the current Boston Bruins.

Quote:
Undoubtedly coaching can only do so much. Yet Lou is among the most respected hockey minds in the NHL. If he feels that his coach did not prepare his team for the playoffs, then that's whose opinion I will take.
The NJ Devils developed a locker room clique of entitled veterans, possibly the result of so much pre-lockout success while losing their pre-lockout leadership (mostly Stevens but also Niedermayer). Lou didn't want to fire the entire team, so he fired Julien. The team didn't get any better and eventually Lou ended up being forced to "fire" the leadership of the team - notice that John Madden, Jamie Langenbrunner, and Colin White were all let go for nothing in subsequent years.

You're acting like Dave Tippett never got fired himself.

Quote:
I did not say that Dallas had a mediocre team. I said Phoenix was (is) a mediocre team, and he caused them to play above the sum of their roster.
So Tippett coached a mediocre Phoenix team into the playoffs and a first round loss. Julien coached a better (but really, not stacked) Boston team to the Cup. Seems to me that both men have helped make their teams greater than the sum of their parts in the last few years.

Quote:
Once again, I did not say that NJ was stronger than Dallas. I said Julien achieved a Cup with a stronger roster (Boston of this year) than anything Tippett has had (and I stand behind that).
Boston isn't exactly the most stacked team, but yes, they had a good roster.

Quote:
In regards to New Jersey, what I did say is that Julien failed to prepare a strong NJ team for the playoffs, and was fired for it.
Again, you're acting like Dave Tippett has never been fired. He was, in fact, fired from a Dallas team that was just as strong as NJ on paper - a Dallas team that accomplished nothing in the playoffs itself. And if we're cherrypicking the the year these coaches got fired, Tippett's Stars failed to make the playoffs that one year.

Quote:
Bit of an understatement. His teams boast such finishes as 20th, 16th, 20th, 27th, 24th, and 30th in GPG. Good offensive seasons are an anomaly.
Congratulations, you're a true ATD GM - dishonestly selecting your statistics to suit your purpose. I like how your use of the phrase "such finishes" allows you to claim "I never said these were all the finishes" when called out on it.

You're just going to ignore the fact that Boston boasted finishes of 2nd and 8th in scoring.* The year they finished 2nd was really the only year Julien had a strong offensive roster with Savard, Kessel, and Bergeron healthy all season.

*Boston actually finished 2nd, 29th, and 8th in scoring under Julien, but hey, if we're selectively omitting seasons. It's a small issue, but that 30th you listed above should be 29th.

Quote:
I will agree that he's become a better rounded coach the last few years. However, that 30th place finish was with Boston.
It was actually a 29th place finish, and largely influenced by Kessel leaving and injuries to Bergeron and Savard. What was Julien supposed to do, put on the skates himself to make up for the fact that his first line from the year before disappeared?

Now that you've harped on the offensive finishes, why don't you talk about the defensive finishes of Julien's teams, their winning percentages, or his Jack Adams record?

Anyway, Julien is definitely a defense-first coach. It's not like you can't win with guys like that. The majority of coaches who won Cups in recent years were defense-first guys: Scottie Bowman, Jacques Lemaire, Ken Hitchcock, Pat Burns, Randy Carlyle, Mike Babcock, and Claude Julien himself.

I'm really not sure what we are arguing about anymore - do you think Tippett is a more effective head coach than Julien? Then I strongly disagree.

Do you want to say Tippett is more rounded? I guess I would agree, but despite Julien not necessarily being the most well-rounded coach, he still has had at least as much success as Tippett. And we gave Julien an extremely strong assistant coach in John Muckler, a guy who can run the offensive side of things.

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08-23-2011, 02:44 PM
  #15
TheDevilMadeMe
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Mowers boasts 19 playoff wins in his three playoff performances. Lindbergh put up 12 in one playoff performance. Mowers sample size is small, the playoffs he played in were short, and the number of opposing teams was lacking. It is a fallacy to say that 3 runs must be better than 1, when the three runs were significantly easier to achieve.
You're getting awfully close to saying that everything was easier before expansion.

Each individual run was easier to achieve than Lindbergh's 1, but you really think 3 such runs in a row was easier?

You talked about context before, what about the fact that 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs in 1985 and Lindbergh got to add 3 free wins versus 0 losses against a pathetic Rangers team in the first round?

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65 wins in 152 starts is better than 87 wins in 157?
We're counting regular season wins now between players who played in completely different eras? It wasn't exactly a difficult to rack up wins for the 80s Flyerrs - the season after Lindbergh died, Bob Froese tied for the league lead in wins playing for the Flyers.

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My point about his domination of the AHL primarily relates to his reliency and compete-level. He came over to the NHL as one of the first European goalies. Despite being more talented than Philly's other goalies, he was relegated to the minors - in a foreign country were he barely spoke the language. Infact, no European goalie prior to Lindbergh had held down an NHL starting job for any notable length of time. While many people would (and did) fold and head home, he proceeded to destroy the minor leagues and force his way into NHL stardom.
Okay. It's a great story and makes him more historically significant. I'm not sure if it really affects the comparison with Mowers at all, but it is interesting.

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He started and played the entire game in those 5 (300 minutes). That would be the team's number 1 by most definitions.
Where did you find information on the 1980 Olympics? What games did Lindbergh start? The 1980 Olympics featured a round-robin pool of 5 games, then 3 games in the medal round. If Lindbergh played all 3 games in the medal round, I'd consider him Sweden's #1.

If so, his 1980 Olympics would definitely add something to his resume - not as much as any of Mowers' playoff runs, but it would bridge the gap somewhat.

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08-23-2011, 02:54 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I hold Lindbergh ahead of Mowers and that isn't a dig at Mowers at all.
I'm sure you're not the only one.

I mean, you're wrong. But you're not crazy wrong.

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Pelle Lindbergh was the best goalie in during TV-pucken, while this is a U-16 tournament it is very big and tough tournament. I could go into detail but I won't as it's pre junior and is a minor accomplishment.
Rick Dipietro was a great junior goalie too. Some GMs might care about what these guys did as juniors, but I don't think most of us do.

Again, I don't feel like researching Mowers' junior career because I don't think junior careers matter, but Pelletier did say that Mowers was very impressive in the minors before coming to the NHL.

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He made the Tre Kronors roster without playing a game in the SEL. This was and is still very rare.
What year was this? Can you give a time frame please?

Also, this sounds impressive, but did he actually have to beat anyone out for the job? Who else did Sweden have in goal at the time? Holmqvist was out of the picture by then.

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Lindbergh is also the only goaltender not to lose against Team USA in 1980. Pelle made such a memorable performance that when asking people who was on the 1980 roster most would tell you Pelle Lindbergh. Only a few would say any other name. Lindbergh was rested during the games vs Norway.
Do you have a list of all the games he was rested for? He missed 3 games according to my records. Again, the 1980 Olympics is a nice feather in his cap, but still worth less than a playoff run in the pre-expansion era, I would have to think.

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There is no doubt in my mind that if it wasn't for his death we would be discussing him in the ATD.
I could easily say that if it wasn't for World War 2, there is no doubt in my mind that we'd be discussing Johnny Mowers in the ATD. He was considered one of the "big 3" with Frank Brimsek and Turk Broda before all 3 went off to fight in the war. Unlike the other two, Mowers never recovered his form.

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08-23-2011, 03:03 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Where did you find information on the 1980 Olympics? What games did Lindbergh start? The 1980 Olympics featured a round-robin pool of 5 games, then 3 games in the medal round. If Lindbergh played all 3 games in the medal round, I'd consider him Sweden's #1.

If so, his 1980 Olympics would definitely add something to his resume - not as much as any of Mowers' playoff runs, but it would bridge the gap somewhat.

Its a statstical error. Lindbergh played all medal games but I believe he was pulled when Sweden lost to the Soviets (9-2) to try to shake things up. This is not counted as game in either his or Löfqvists stats.

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08-23-2011, 03:06 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm sure you're not the only one.

I mean, you're wrong. But you're not crazy wrong.



Rick Dipietro was a great junior goalie too. Some GMs might care about what these guys did as juniors, but I don't think most of us do.

Again, I don't feel like researching Mowers' junior career because I don't think junior careers matter, but Pelletier did say that Mowers was very impressive in the minors before coming to the NHL.



What year was this? Can you give a time frame please?

Also, this sounds impressive, but did he actually have to beat anyone out for the job? Who else did Sweden have in goal at the time? Holmqvist was out of the picture by then.



Do you have a list of all the games he was rested for? He missed 3 games according to my records. Again, the 1980 Olympics is a nice feather in his cap, but still worth less than a playoff run in the pre-expansion era, I would have to think.



I could easily say that if it wasn't for World War 2, there is no doubt in my mind that we'd be discussing Johnny Mowers in the ATD. He was considered one of the "big 3" with Frank Brimsek and Turk Broda before all 3 went off to fight in the war. Unlike the other two, Mowers never recovered his form.
Yes, I should have included this. I simply forgot my arguments wasn't made to weaken your goalie against Lindbergh. My opinion of him being ranked higher should have been seperate for the rest of my arguments. I apologize.

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08-23-2011, 03:07 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Its a statstical error. Lindbergh played all medal games but I believe he was pulled when Sweden lost to the Soviets (9-2) to try to shake things up. This is not counted as game in either his or Löfqvists stats.
Huh, that's really strange. I guess neither of them would want a game like that to count in their stats.

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yes, I should have included this. I simply forgot my arguments wasn't made to weaken your goalie against Lindbergh. My opinion of him being ranked higher should have been seperate for the rest of my arguments. I apologize.
No need to apologize. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify things.

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08-23-2011, 03:17 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Huh, that's really strange. I guess neither of them would want a game like that to count in their stats.
I agree that no goaltender would want that plump in their stats but sadly enough both of them were Swedens strongest players that game. That whole team just fell apart before the Soviets attempt to restore some honor after the loss to Team USA.

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08-23-2011, 03:26 PM
  #21
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I admit, Lindbergh/Mowers is intriguing.

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08-23-2011, 04:19 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I admit, Lindbergh/Mowers is intriguing.
Agree. I probably should have started off with one of the areas where Eden Hall's advantage is more clearcut, but I couldn't resist the goaltender comparison. I was actually really happy to face off against TheJudge, because it's a actually possible to compare these two goalies as short, dominant career guys.

Much more interesting than talking about our modern head coaches who everyone is already familiar with. Heh.

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08-23-2011, 04:56 PM
  #23
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I'd say overall we've probably both said enough on the coaches

However, there's a couple things I'd like to address:

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Congratulations, you're a true ATD GM - dishonestly selecting your statistics to suit your purpose. I like how your use of the phrase "such finishes" allows you to claim "I never said these were all the finishes" when called out on it.
To be fair, you used "Boston finished 2nd so I'm not worried about scoring" as an argument. I didn't see you post his other finishes either.

I felt (feel) you should be somewhat concerned about his teams ability to score. Accordingly I used several of Julien's other finishes as a mark against his teams offense, in the same way you used an isolated finish as a mark for him.


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*Boston actually finished 2nd, 29th, and 8th in scoring under Julien, but hey, if we're selectively omitting seasons. It's a small issue, but that 30th you listed above should be 29th.
According to NHL.com, Julien's Bruins finished 30th in the NHL in 09/10:

...
27th Edmonton 2.51 GPG
28th Florida 2.46 GPG
29th Calgary 2.45 GPG
30th Boston 2.39 GPG

I did not bring up Julien's defensive finishes because I already agreed he is a strong defensive coach.

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08-23-2011, 05:09 PM
  #24
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I'd say overall we've probably both said enough on the coaches
Absolutely. And yet we can't stop.

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However, there's a couple things I'd like to address:



To be fair, you used "Boston finished 2nd so I'm not worried about scoring" as an argument. I didn't see you post his other finishes either.
I guess that was cherrypicking a finish, though it was more out of laziness than anything. It was basically to point out that neither offense nor defense alone matters as much as goal differential, something Julien's teams have always been good at. Using hockey-reference's stats, Julien's Boston team was +6 even in the year they finished 29th in scoring. (And that was by far his worst season in Boston).

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I felt (feel) you should be somewhat concerned about his teams ability to score. Accordingly I used some of Julien's other finishes as a mark against his teams offense, in the same way you used an isolated finish as a mark for him.
Julien's teams scored fine on those few occasions when they actually had offensive talent.

I feel that you should be the one worried about your team scoring, given then fact that Eden Hall's first line is far more explosive offensively than anything Thunder Bay has. (This is the single biggest difference between the teams and one I'll go into in more detail later).

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According to NHL.com, Julien's Bruins finished 30th in the NHL in 09/10:

...
27th Edmonton 2.51 GPG
28th Florida 2.46 GPG
29th Calgary 2.45 GPG
30th Boston 2.39 GPG
According to hockey-reference, they finished 29th (206 goals vs Calgary's 204). Weird. Anyway...

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I did not bring up Julien's defensive finishes because I already agreed he is a strong defensive coach.
Okay. Anyway, I don't think it will be a problem. Julien, as head coach, will be in charge of the bench during games. Muckler (a much more offensive coach) and Julien will likely have equal say in terms of devising strategies. I think this partnership will work really well - it's exactly the role Muckler had under Sather in Edmonton. And Julien has always been a laid back guy who doesn't really spend much time in the spotlight, so I don't think he'd mind sharing responsibility.

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08-23-2011, 05:15 PM
  #25
seventieslord
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I feel like using GF for coaches can be used either way depending on how one prefers.

i.e. "Julien's team finished 29th in goals so he is not a good offensive coach", or "Julien clearly had no one to work with - look at his team, they finished just 29th in goals!"

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