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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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Old
08-23-2011, 02:13 PM
  #51
expos4ever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
...Here's the quick hater response for you so that you don't have to bother skimming through the rest of the thread :

Yemelin? He isn't proven! Our management couldn't know something we don't
White? He's a lower-middle weight ***** at best!
Cole? He doesn't fight <insert embarrassingly bad Cole fight video>
Konopka? But but but he played well for a team aiming to be in last place
Big bodies? None of those guys will ever make the NHL, Tinordi is a ***** who beats up on guys smaller than him and rarely wins a fight. Beaulieu? This isn't 2015 bro

That pretty much sums up all of their comments in response to your solid points.

PS: Hope to see more of you around here, we need more optimists to overshadow the pack of haters
Precisely why I rarely post! We have a nice team building up toward SC contention, and people don't see the forest for the trees. I for one will be enjoying the ride and not nitpicking the inevitable speed bumps along the way...

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Old
08-23-2011, 02:22 PM
  #52
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You'll notice there aren't any of these guys out there to sign. I mean the actual useful ones who can make a difference the shift before he arranges someones face.

The only way you're going to get any of these guys is if you draft one(which people will complain aren't skilled enough to waste a draft pick on, or he won't be ready for 2 years), or you find someone who wants to trade them. Except no one wants to trade these guys because they're actually useful.

Adding a fighter does nothing to improve our team imo. If you can find another John Ferguson out there, I'd love to have him.

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Old
08-23-2011, 02:23 PM
  #53
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Don't want subban? We'll give you Jay Rosehill for him, Rosehill can fight.

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Old
08-23-2011, 02:47 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
What a load of crap. Ever since Maxpac gave Chara a friendly little shove, Chara was going to do something stupid. If Moen or White ran Chara a few more times in between the two events do you really think that would have changed Chara's decision making process leading up to the stanchion?

Fighters are absolutely no deterrent to cheap shots. None whatsoever. If they were, then why do so many Bruins end up with concussions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I was going to bring this up but knew someone else would. Agree 100% it's very much speculation based on very little if anything. Pretty sure a 1st year psych student could even tell you this wouldn't change a thing.
Chara isn't a robot programmed to go after the last guy who pissed him off. He went after Max because Max was a cocky rookie and gave him a baby shove after pwning the game.
I knew mentionning maxpac was going to trigger a response. I want to point out that saying that ''it wouldn't have changed anything'' if others would have given chara other hits to remember is just as much speculation ... based on your opinions, which I respect.

and neofury, I went way passed my 1rst year in psychology, and I would never dare use that as an argument to justify anything...

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Old
08-23-2011, 03:18 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Speculation: Please stop.

Toughness is not the same thing as fighting. Cole was # 8 in hits last season, drives the net and takes a beating every game. I'll take his "toughness" any day over some jerk who can only play 6 minutes a game then go lose a fight.

No toughness added on D, have you ever heard of Yemelin? Really?

Do we have to trot out the stupid "I wanna fighter!!!!" argument every other week? This is getting very lame.

If you're going to criticize management, at least suggest some alternatives, players they should have signed, who would fit the "toughness" criteria that you're looking for, etc. If not, it just comes off as whining.

I can do the same thing:

"How come managment didn't add any 50 goal scorers this off season? Don't they want to win?"
This is not whining.

This is a subject that many Habs fan feel that HAS been ignored.

Team toughness comes in many forms; all you had to do was look at playoffs last year and see how Marchand runs guys like Spacek with no detterent from our team.

You can trace this back from the Chara hit on Max to McLean's hit on Zednik years ago. The perception that you can run at our team with little concequence is REAL!! It DOES have an impact on the game when you don't get your skill player the room they need to make plays because they are INITIMATED!

It's real, it's been happening for years, so really STOP calling it whining.

Nobody wants to send a tough guy over the boards with little skill except to be the intimidator. But there were tough guys with some skill available and we missed them this year.... Rupp, Kanopka.

Moen and White are middle weights, we do need a bigger tougher guy on the fourth line, personally I would take one to replace Moen.

Wade Belak was just on Team 990 and said that when you walked into Philly you knew that you were going to be in a hockey game. When his teams played in Montreal, he knew that the toughness dimension was not something to worry about and that they could then concentrate on other things.


Last edited by nyhabsfan: 08-23-2011 at 03:25 PM.
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Old
08-23-2011, 03:26 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
This is not whining.

This is a subject that many Habs fan feel that HAS been ignored.

Team toughness comes in many forms; all you had to do was look at playoffs last year and see how Marchand runs guys like Spacek with no detterent from our team.

You can trace this back from the Chara hit on Max to McLean's hit on Zednik years ago. The perception that you can run at our team with little concequence is REAL!! It DOES have an impact on the game when you don't get your skill player the room they need to make plays because they are INITIMATED!

It's real, it's been happening for years, so really STOP calling it whining.

Nobody wants to send a tough guy over the boards with little skill except to be the intimidator. But there were tough guys with some skill available and we missed them this year.... Rupp, Kanopka.

Moen and White are middle weights, we do need a bigger tougher guy on the fourth line, personally I would take one to replace Moen.
Don't try to convince the Nobel Peace's candidates here.

They don't understand the very basics of hockey and the overall NHL lack of judgement in penalties and suspensions distribution (or lack of)...

Habs will have again tons of injured players and will get kicked out by a more agressive team out of the playoffs next April.

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Old
08-23-2011, 03:49 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Don't try to convince the Nobel Peace's candidates here.

They don't understand the very basics of hockey and the overall NHL lack of judgement in penalties and suspensions distribution (or lack of)...

Habs will have again tons of injured players and will get kicked out by a more agressive team out of the playoffs next April.
Can we stop with the myth that the Habs had an abnormal amount of injuries when the numbers just don't back that up?

After 74 games last season, the Habs were 17th in the league wrt man games lost. Even if you factor in that we didn't have Gorges, Markov and Pacioretty for those remaining 8 games we wouldn't crack the top 10 on the list through March 24th.

The reason injuries became such a big story last year was because for the most part they were all at the same position. And because Habs fans like to think we're the only ones who have to put up with adversity.

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Old
08-23-2011, 03:59 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
This is not whining.

This is a subject that many Habs fan feel that HAS been ignored.

Team toughness comes in many forms; all you had to do was look at playoffs last year and see how Marchand runs guys like Spacek with no detterent from our team.

You can trace this back from the Chara hit on Max to McLean's hit on Zednik years ago. The perception that you can run at our team with little concequence is REAL!! It DOES have an impact on the game when you don't get your skill player the room they need to make plays because they are INITIMATED!

It's real, it's been happening for years, so really STOP calling it whining.

Nobody wants to send a tough guy over the boards with little skill except to be the intimidator. But there were tough guys with some skill available and we missed them this year.... Rupp, Kanopka.

Moen and White are middle weights, we do need a bigger tougher guy on the fourth line, personally I would take one to replace Moen.

Wade Belak was just on Team 990 and said that when you walked into Philly you knew that you were going to be in a hockey game. When his teams played in Montreal, he knew that the toughness dimension was not something to worry about and that they could then concentrate on other things.
When Belak walked into Montreal, he knew he probably would be a healthy scratch.

...

Rupp and Konopka don't intimidate a soul. Rupp's a pretty poor fighter and Konopka's small.

...

If Montreal players were intimidated and 'didn't have room to use their skill', then how were they able to be successful against tough teams? It doesn't add up.

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08-23-2011, 04:05 PM
  #59
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Ask the bruins, pens and caps if we're tough.
It's sad that some fans still don't understand how tough we are.

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Old
08-23-2011, 04:07 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Don't try to convince the Nobel Peace's candidates here.

They don't understand the very basics of hockey and the overall NHL lack of judgement in penalties and suspensions distribution (or lack of)...
I play hockey competitively and boxe in the amateurs... those that make me a Nobel Peace candidate? I mean, it does come with a 1 million dollars price

Quote:
Habs will have again tons of injured players and will get kicked out by a more agressive team out of the playoffs next April.
I wouldn't call losing in OT, in game 7, on a goal that was deflected 2 times kicked out but I guess

Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Mclean - coach of Ottawa and Stanley Cup Winner said intimidation is still part of the game. What does he know, though?
Link? I'm curious to see what he had to say. But it's good to see that we agree there is not only one way to assemble a hockey team.

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Old
08-23-2011, 04:10 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
This is not whining.

This is a subject that many Habs fan feel that HAS been ignored.

Team toughness comes in many forms; all you had to do was look at playoffs last year and see how Marchand runs guys like Spacek with no detterent from our team.

You can trace this back from the Chara hit on Max to McLean's hit on Zednik years ago. The perception that you can run at our team with little concequence is REAL!! It DOES have an impact on the game when you don't get your skill player the room they need to make plays because they are INITIMATED!

It's real, it's been happening for years, so really STOP calling it whining.

Nobody wants to send a tough guy over the boards with little skill except to be the intimidator. But there were tough guys with some skill available and we missed them this year.... Rupp, Kanopka.

Moen and White are middle weights, we do need a bigger tougher guy on the fourth line, personally I would take one to replace Moen.

Wade Belak was just on Team 990 and said that when you walked into Philly you knew that you were going to be in a hockey game. When his teams played in Montreal, he knew that the toughness dimension was not something to worry about and that they could then concentrate on other things.
no offense, but that part is BS, when you put names like these you're not interested in a tough guy with some skills, you just want a fighter, period...

I mean, for a fighter with (some) skills, Konopka sure spent a lot of time on the 4th line of one of the worst team in the league...

and for such a useful guy, it's kinda strange that he signed for league minimum (or close) for one of the, arguably, worst teams of the league... again

and dont tell me about Rupp, the guy is 31 years old, never reached the 20 pts mark, is in the minus (+/-) for his whole career, doesnt play on the PK... so yeah, that's how useful he is...

would I take him on my team ? well, depends, do we have a Crosby or Malkin to protect ? or any other 100/120 pts player that we need to make room for him/them to do their thing ?


reality is, guys like this are no Nilan or Ferguson... guys like these two are on a league of their own, I mean Nilan got 15+ goals 3X, 30+ pts 2X, even got 21 goals once... Ferguson got under 30 pts only once in his career, got 40+ pts 4X, scored over 15 7X, even got a 29 goals season and a 50+ pts season...

and while Nilan was good enough to play on the best shutdown line of his era, Ferguson was good enough to play on any top 6...

people need to wake up, fighters with skills are almost non-existant, 99% of them play a few shifts a night and that's all... if these guy (the 99%) had enough skills to survive in this league without the fighting, they simply wouldnt fight... they fight cause that's the only thing they're good enough at to get them a job on a NHL team...

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Old
08-23-2011, 04:13 PM
  #62
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How haven't we had a thread like this before?

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Old
08-23-2011, 04:21 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Don't try to convince the Nobel Peace's candidates here.

They don't understand the very basics of hockey and the overall NHL lack of judgement in penalties and suspensions distribution (or lack of)...

Habs will have again tons of injured players and will get kicked out by a more agressive team out of the playoffs next April.
So us, Nobel Peace's candidates, that believe our management has done a good job don't understand the very basics of hockey, but you, someone just like us, except you have a lust for blood, understands it?

I wonder who's right here, the people who are running a BILLION dollar hockey team, or you who thinks he knows everything about hockey.

BTW, I've played hockey for 17 years, I know very much the basics of hockey. Mordern hockey might I add. Don't worry, I wasn't a peace nobel's candidate on the ice.

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Old
08-23-2011, 04:30 PM
  #64
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We need to:

- Forecheck and backcheck intelligently
- Play a sound speed game when on the offense
- Get a player who can take right-handed faceoffs and win enough of them

among other things someone else listed before me.

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08-23-2011, 05:39 PM
  #65
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Let's see how the big bad bruins fare this year in the toughness dept when campbell isn't there any more in the front office handing out the suspensions and fines.
I may be wrong(but i doubt it) Shanny is going to do a much better job - he strikes me as a guy who gets it.
For years the guys handing out the suspensions were career block heads/ cement heads and plumbers, lets see how it goes now with a little skill finding its way into discipline

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08-23-2011, 05:58 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcv View Post
So us, Nobel Peace's candidates, that believe our management has done a good job don't understand the very basics of hockey, but you, someone just like us, except you have a lust for blood, understands it?

I wonder who's right here, the people who are running a BILLION dollar hockey team, or you who thinks he knows everything about hockey.

BTW, I've played hockey for 17 years, I know very much the basics of hockey. Mordern hockey might I add. Don't worry, I wasn't a peace nobel's candidate on the ice.
I have no lust for blood and useless staged fights between goons. pÍrsonnally, I would eject fighters from the game as it is done in soccer, baseball, football and any other sport. i would do the same with playres who are trying to injure other players by using their stick or hitting them from behind or over the shoulders.

But as long as this league doesn't protect its players better and doesn't apply the rules properly, **** gonna happen. And the Habs are not equiped to face it.

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Old
08-23-2011, 06:13 PM
  #67
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Moot point and pointless thread.

PG has spoken and he said No Thanks to having a tougher team. The rest of this is an exercise in futility.

The only thing that we can do is sit back and watch the Canadiens play and if having a markedly softer team than the rest of the divisional teams makes a difference. (each camp has their own thoughts but game in and game out will be the reality)

We will get a sneak peak when the Bruins and the Habs play each other in preseason.

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Old
08-23-2011, 06:18 PM
  #68
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When will be the day when this topic goes to rest...


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08-23-2011, 06:37 PM
  #69
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Hmm,...the toughness thread, I prefer seeing the Habs win on the scoreboard than in the allies, but having said that, the rematch game with the Bruins after the Pacioretty incident was an absolute embarrassment.

What this team lacks and has lacked for quite sometime is a loose cannon....someone that is not afraid to stir it up and then back it up.

Anyone who says intimidation is not part of the game, are dead wrong.....just ask Henrik and Daniel.

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08-23-2011, 08:32 PM
  #70
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I bet if the Bruins stopped being girlie men and actually hired some tough guys for a change, guys like Savard and Horton wouldn't be recovering from concussions at this moment.

When a guy like Benoit Pouliout knocks someone out on your team it's time to look into the mirror and stop being a Nobel Peacer.

Quote:
We will get a sneak peak when the Bruins and the Habs play each other in preseason.
Yes because the preseason is always such an accurate representation of the rest of the year correct?

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Old
08-23-2011, 08:45 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Moot point and pointless thread.

PG has spoken and he said No Thanks to having a tougher team. The rest of this is an exercise in futility.

The only thing that we can do is sit back and watch the Canadiens play and if having a markedly softer team than the rest of the divisional teams makes a difference. (each camp has their own thoughts but game in and game out will be the reality)

We will get a sneak peak when the Bruins and the Habs play each other in preseason.
meh, vets going in slo-mo, youngsters doing stuff they dont normally do (like fighting for example) to impress the Org isnt much of what we'll see this season from each teams.

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Old
08-23-2011, 10:00 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Moot point and pointless thread.

PG has spoken and he said No Thanks to having a tougher team. The rest of this is an exercise in futility.

The only thing that we can do is sit back and watch the Canadiens play and if having a markedly softer team than the rest of the divisional teams makes a difference. (each camp has their own thoughts but game in and game out will be the reality)

We will get a sneak peak when the Bruins and the Habs play each other in preseason.
I have great seats for the Sept.25th game here in Halifax.I also have lots of mixed emotions about witnessing what might happen in person.

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Old
08-23-2011, 10:04 PM
  #73
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Our team is built on speed...no problem

We do not need a goon who plays 4 minutes per game...no problem

However, we do need somone who plays a regular shift and can take on other teams heavyweights. This is certain.

Why? Because we are a small team, teams have no fear of any of our players, and I don`t care what any of you say, intimidation is still a huge part of this game. And I don`t care how gritty we play, Cammy biting at Chara`s ankles just won`t cut it. A heavyweight demands respect, makes opposing players think twice before they goon up one of our players. Plus our players would play 3 inches taller, its just 1 player, surely we can do that.

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08-23-2011, 10:17 PM
  #74
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The 'fairy' comment aside (that comment should be stricken from the post) we do need more toughness in the lineup. Management tried to somewhat address this with Cole but we've needed toughness for a while.

People keep saying we're built on skill... Only problem with that is that we really aren't that skilled either. We have one legit first liner (Cammy) and we try to make up for it with depth of guys who might be able to score 20 goals. Probably good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to contend.

No, toughness is not the be all and end all, but if you ignore it to the extent that we have over the years, it's going to hurt you. The biggest team might not always win but the smallest/weakest team never does. And I suspect if we were more of a size oriented team vs. speed, a lot more people here would be preaching how it's all about size and not speed that wins cups. We aren't though, so folks downplay it's importance.

It's both. You need balance and we don't have enough of grit right now. Emelin might be able to help in that area and hopefully Cole helps to change the culture of the team but in my opinion we're still a long ways a way from where we need to be. The Habs of the 70s were the most skilled team of all time but they could step into the ring. The 80s and 90s cup winners could certainly hold their own too.
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When will be the day when this topic goes to rest...
When management does something about it.

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Old
08-23-2011, 10:32 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Less Habitats View Post
I bet if the Bruins stopped being girlie men and actually hired some tough guys for a change, guys like Savard and Horton wouldn't be recovering from concussions at this moment.

When a guy like Benoit Pouliout knocks someone out on your team it's time to look into the mirror and stop being a Nobel Peacer.



Yes because the preseason is always such an accurate representation of the rest of the year correct?
Actually, I think that the Habs will fare pretty well against the Bruins in the preseason fights. Hamilton has some really good tough guys.

I am referring though to the "interactions" between Pacioretty and the Bruins and what the response from the Habs will be.

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