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What if Tlusty wasn't a bust?

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Old
08-19-2011, 08:55 PM
  #51
FrozenJagrt
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Hypothetical postulates bare keen resemblance vis vis cerebral expectorations. Perchance borne from true intellectual merit, alas they lack suitability to common discourse due to lack of practicality.
Being pedantic is just pretentious amirite?

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08-20-2011, 10:21 PM
  #52
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by: hockeyfanz

Excellent points...who is to say that Stewart or Giroux would have been the players that they are today under the Leafs farm system. I have been to a few Marlie games and honestly..Tlusty was easily the best player on the ice in the games I witnessed. But we know that a good AHLer doesn't always translate into a good NHLer....I wouldn't write him off just yet however. He definitely has a great skillset to draw from....[/QUOTE]

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08-21-2011, 05:29 PM
  #53
Johny Drama
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Originally Posted by JoeParez View Post
You don't know that.
The minute you decide to use hindsight as a way of proving things, you have to take into account the altered history/future from it. If the Leafs had selected Giroux, then the outcome stops there. You can't say; "oh, then everything happened exactly as is from that point on"; it doesn't -- it changes the course!!!

Who's to say if the Leafs drafted Giroux, that he would've succeeded as a Leaf prospect? If he succeeded and made an impact on the roster; does JFJ remain as GM thus cancelling all the Burke roster moves.

Stop using hindsight to prove a point.
Noboby can predict the future, but arent allowed to use past history to ask "What if"? Its just a post to generate discussion, nothing more. If you dont agree with it or dont like it, lots of other posts on here.

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08-21-2011, 08:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by mpleafan View Post
You could honestly ask this question about any failed leafs players in history. What if Jeff Ware hadnt busted? What if Justin Pogge hadnt Busted? What if Jonas Frogren hadnt busted? all questions dont really matter because they DID bust.
Tlusty, can still become a NHL full-time player and likely will with the Canes. my guess 35-60PTS

The difference between Ware and Tlusty is very easy. Tlusty was highly rated and Jeff Ware is a product of a crappy farm team and poor drafting.

Pogge, remember when he was deemed the future. What happened?

As for Frogren, how is he a bust? he was 27 when he signed with the Leafs. Lack for team defence on the main roster put in the NHL 20-30 games to early. Frogren, basically had a job well Cliff was the GM. but once Brukie took over his chance was over. I remember reading a interview with Burkie and talking about how Frogren was not given a chance to really make the team in his 2nd year but of other defencemen on the team that made the roster because Brukie did not want to pass them though waivers. Frogren, did bring a good fit for 3 paring or 7th dman. Blocked shots, Hits, good know how of the defence zone. only thing that hurt him was the foot speed. In the year he was sent to the marlies it was filled with injs. but he did help gunnarsson and others on the team. After his contract with the Leafs was done he was offered contracts from Detroit and Chicago but turned them down to sign with Farjestads. Where injs last year limited his time for the start of the season and European Championships and was able to win a SEL championship last year. I liked Frogren for what he could bring the team to bad he was not given the chance he should gotten. Plus Forogren was a 6th round pick so the bust label doesn't fit.

Any 1st rounder that failers to become a full time NHLer and at the age of 27 can be labeled a bust. 2nd rounders also fit this. 3rd rounders maybe, but anything past the 3rd round is not a bust no matter what since most of them don't make it....

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08-21-2011, 10:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Kulemin - Giroux - Kessel
Lupul - Grabovski - MacArhur
Kadri - Steen - Armstrong
Brown - Dupuis - Orr

Phaneuf - Aulie
Schenn - Liles
2 of Gunnar/Frason/Coliacovo

Would have looked better
I love Steen. What a real bad trade. Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak. Thanks Fletcher. Miss both of those guys but Steen more so. Colaiacovo was never gonna have a chance to make it here.

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08-22-2011, 07:04 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Landeskog View Post
Tlusty, can still become a NHL full-time player and likely will with the Canes. my guess 35-60PTS
...

Any 1st rounder that failers to become a full time NHLer and at the age of 27 can be labeled a bust. 2nd rounders also fit this. 3rd rounders maybe, but anything past the 3rd round is not a bust no matter what since most of them don't make it....
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players...28/jiri-tlusty

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Tlusty, who signed a one-year, $525,000 contract with the 'Canes on July 1, has something in common with Kaberle, as they both were drafted by the Maple Leafs -- Tlusty was selected a decade after Kaberle -- in 2006. Of course, the Hurricanes have been awfully patient with Tlusty, as the winger has sustained several injuries in his young career, including a shoulder malady that required surgery following the 2010-11 season. Health permitting, Tlusty figures to be an energetic cog on Carolina's lower lines in the next season.
(Updated 07/06/2011).
Jiri just turned 23, and went through a horrible season health wise.

In Toronto his early years he looked like he has some good skills and can skate. Decent shot, but I think he needs a situation where he's playing with smart players. I wouldn't expect to see him carrying the puck, more a give and go player.

I think if he regains confidence he could become a better than energy line player. Few players hit their peak at 22.

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08-22-2011, 08:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by catgoldfish View Post
I love Steen. What a real bad trade. Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak. Thanks Fletcher. Miss both of those guys but Steen more so. Colaiacovo was never gonna have a chance to make it here.
Face it, Steen was not living up to expectations at all. He needed a change of scenery. That kid got EVERY opportunity to succeed in Toronto and never pulled it off. Hell, Mats Sundin turned Hoglund into a 30 goal scorer (please do not nitpick that number), and Steen was absolutely underwhelming with Mats. I like Steen, I think he is a fanastic two way player, but I was not sad to see him go. He needed to flourish elsewhere.

Colaiacovo... Ugh. He would have been a very good player, but he apparently has a fetish for nurses or something. How else do you explain all those injuries?

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Old
08-22-2011, 08:35 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
Face it, Steen was not living up to expectations at all. He needed a change of scenery. That kid got EVERY opportunity to succeed in Toronto and never pulled it off. Hell, Mats Sundin turned Hoglund into a 30 goal scorer (please do not nitpick that number), and Steen was absolutely underwhelming with Mats. I like Steen, I think he is a fanastic two way player, but I was not sad to see him go. He needed to flourish elsewhere.

Colaiacovo... Ugh. He would have been a very good player, but he apparently has a fetish for nurses or something. How else do you explain all those injuries?
Clearing the slate by signing Finger and dealing youngsters?

Obviously, there have been several mistakes by the veteran GM's who replaced the rookie GM.

There also have been some good decisions, but you couldn't tell by the results on the ice can you?

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08-22-2011, 09:09 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Team First View Post
by: hockeyfanz

Excellent points...who is to say that Stewart or Giroux would have been the players that they are today under the Leafs farm system. I have been to a few Marlie games and honestly..Tlusty was easily the best player on the ice in the games I witnessed. But we know that a good AHLer doesn't always translate into a good NHLer....I wouldn't write him off just yet however. He definitely has a great skillset to draw from....
My stock reply to all the "What if?" questions.....
IF my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Actually, just like your Avatar:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Thanks....I thought it was pretty cool too...The original DOUGIE!

Doug Favell of course.

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08-22-2011, 09:13 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TML1988 View Post
He had promise, but it's unclear whether anyone else we would've drafted would react in a different way. If we took Stewart, Giroux, Berglund or even Varlamov, would they have developed as they have? We don't know. Not enough credit goes to the teams that drafted them for developing them into legitimate players.
The developing part is so true. Other teams have the patience and the personnel to bring their talent along...the Leafs in the past have rushed their talent only to see them fail.

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08-22-2011, 09:14 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
Face it, Steen was not living up to expectations at all. He needed a change of scenery. That kid got EVERY opportunity to succeed in Toronto and never pulled it off. Hell, Mats Sundin turned Hoglund into a 30 goal scorer (please do not nitpick that number), and Steen was absolutely underwhelming with Mats. I like Steen, I think he is a fanastic two way player, but I was not sad to see him go. He needed to flourish elsewhere.

Colaiacovo... Ugh. He would have been a very good player, but he apparently has a fetish for nurses or something. How else do you explain all those injuries?
I agree...everyone talks about hindsight here when it applies to a GM or coach they like but when they are looking to rip someone (JFJ or Fletcher etc..) hindsight being 20/20 is not mentioned. I seem to recall Steen not being anything great in Toronto...pretty mediocre actually, although he is a pretty good player now....and Carlo was injured more often than he wasn't....the trade at the time didn't appear to be a bad one as Stempniak was a skilled 25+ goal scorer. Obviously it didn't work out for Fletcher but let me say this on his behalf....

Hindsight is 20/20

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08-22-2011, 09:19 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
Face it, Steen was not living up to expectations at all. He needed a change of scenery. That kid got EVERY opportunity to succeed in Toronto and never pulled it off. Hell, Mats Sundin turned Hoglund into a 30 goal scorer (please do not nitpick that number), and Steen was absolutely underwhelming with Mats. I like Steen, I think he is a fanastic two way player, but I was not sad to see him go. He needed to flourish elsewhere.

Colaiacovo... Ugh. He would have been a very good player, but he apparently has a fetish for nurses or something. How else do you explain all those injuries?
Steen had a very good rookie season alongside Sundin. The next year they put him in a checking role because he was a strong 2-way player and he never got a fair look at a top 6 role afterwards. He'd be a great addition to our team, a solid 2-way centre who can play any role in the top 9 and can play the point on the PP. He's not an all-star, he's simply a good NHL player.

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08-22-2011, 09:28 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
I agree...everyone talks about hindsight here when it applies to a GM or coach they like but when they are looking to rip someone (JFJ or Fletcher etc..) hindsight being 20/20 is not mentioned. I seem to recall Steen not being anything great in Toronto...pretty mediocre actually, although he is a pretty good player now....and Carlo was injured more often than he wasn't....the trade at the time didn't appear to be a bad one as Stempniak was a skilled 25+ goal scorer. Obviously it didn't work out for Fletcher but let me say this on his behalf....

Hindsight is 20/20
Steen had a big drop when RW showed up.

He was traded at age 24 and at the lowest point of his career, and rebounded with St. Louis, and has become one of their best two-way players.

Stempniak is a streaky player, and he'll have to get back to that 25+ goals per year to get another good contract. Phoenix must not have felt his hot streak to end the season was indicative of his game, otherwise he'd have re-signed for more than a 1.9 cap hit over two years. If he could have handled the pressure in Toronto he'd have been a decent replacement for Steen, but not good enough for the top 6 I'm not sure he's tough enough for the bottom 6.

Perhaps like Versteeg, just a bad fit chemistry wise.

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08-22-2011, 10:05 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Steen had a very good rookie season alongside Sundin. The next year they put him in a checking role because he was a strong 2-way player and he never got a fair look at a top 6 role afterwards. He'd be a great addition to our team, a solid 2-way centre who can play any role in the top 9 and can play the point on the PP. He's not an all-star, he's simply a good NHL player.
Good, not great. I agree that Steen was somewhat underwhelming in Toronto, but management put way too much pressure on him way too fast. Unlike a bunch of other young guys the Leafs were bringing along at that time, Steen was literally thrown from the SEL to the NHL with no prep time; I remember thinking in 2006 that he could probably have benefitted from a year in the AHL, getting accustomed to the North American game, rather than being on Sundin's wing pretty much from minute one. But that was Quinn for you; he seemed to have obsessions with certain players...

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08-22-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Lightsol View Post
Good, not great. I agree that Steen was somewhat underwhelming in Toronto, but management put way too much pressure on him way too fast. Unlike a bunch of other young guys the Leafs were bringing along at that time, Steen was literally thrown from the SEL to the NHL with no prep time; I remember thinking in 2006 that he could probably have benefitted from a year in the AHL, getting accustomed to the North American game, rather than being on Sundin's wing pretty much from minute one. But that was Quinn for you; he seemed to have obsessions with certain players...
It seems like the fans expected more than the team. He was a solid rookie, outproducing guys like Vanek, Carter, Richards, etc.. but then the team threw him in to a defensive role and never really gave him the chance to escape. He'd fill-in when other guys were injured, look good, then be thrown back in to a checking role once the other player was healthy.

I don't see how AHL time would've helped him, he was a good defensive player who could produce when asked.

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08-22-2011, 10:43 AM
  #66
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Noboby can predict the future, but arent allowed to use past history to ask "What if"? Its just a post to generate discussion, nothing more. If you dont agree with it or dont like it, lots of other posts on here.
He posted a "future" line up using the moves that were made after the Tlusty draft; so he "predicted the future" per se. If he stayed on the topic of "What if Tlusty wasn't a bust?" then you'd be correct.

Hindsight is every Leaf fans worst nightmare. We still talk about the "Scott Niedermayer" draft; when there was no proof that the Leafs would've selected him; the same with the freak 2003 draft where the Leafs traded their first rounder and everyone is up in arms "We could've had Ryan Kesler!" -- or we could've had Mark Stuart who was selected in our spot (hardly a stud) or Jeff Tambellini, or Marc-Andre Pouliot.

People use hindsight to prove their point as correct but often fail to realize the other factors when using hindsight.

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08-22-2011, 11:52 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
Face it, Steen was not living up to expectations at all. He needed a change of scenery. That kid got EVERY opportunity to succeed in Toronto and never pulled it off. Hell, Mats Sundin turned Hoglund into a 30 goal scorer (please do not nitpick that number), and Steen was absolutely underwhelming with Mats. I like Steen, I think he is a fanastic two way player, but I was not sad to see him go. He needed to flourish elsewhere.

Colaiacovo... Ugh. He would have been a very good player, but he apparently has a fetish for nurses or something. How else do you explain all those injuries?
Steen looked really good when he first arrived, but definitely struggled when Wilson first arrived. I dont agree he needed a change of scenary, this wasnt a guy who'd beein around for serveral years and gone stale. A little more patience was required, but he was probably victim of the change in managment at MLSE. Either way, we still should have received a lot more in return than we did.

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08-22-2011, 02:53 PM
  #68
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Tlusty was a foreign kid rushed into development. He really needed more AHL seasoning. IIRC, he was brought in because of an injury. I know he scored one goal off his butt his first game and think he got a tip in or lucky goal his second game. After that he just looked like he sputtered around and was mostly ineffective. He was never a 3-4 line player, and not really suited to play full-time in the top 6.

On top of that there was his other issues..with the pics, and being put into a media spotlight.

He was the Leafs player who was never meant to be from the start, Bryan Little was the guy the Leafs were hoping for all along and thanks to the Thrashers he was never a Leaf. But my guess is, if Little was a Leaf, he's just be another Stajan or Bozak.

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08-23-2011, 07:11 AM
  #69
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Steen looked really good when he first arrived, but definitely struggled when Wilson first arrived. I dont agree he needed a change of scenary, this wasnt a guy who'd beein around for serveral years and gone stale. A little more patience was required, but he was probably victim of the change in managment at MLSE. Either way, we still should have received a lot more in return than we did.
He might have been too close to Sundin for RW's liking.

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08-23-2011, 10:41 PM
  #70
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Tlusty was a foreign kid rushed into development. He really needed more AHL seasoning. IIRC, he was brought in because of an injury. I know he scored one goal off his butt his first game and think he got a tip in or lucky goal his second game. After that he just looked like he sputtered around and was mostly ineffective. He was never a 3-4 line player, and not really suited to play full-time in the top 6.

On top of that there was his other issues..with the pics, and being put into a media spotlight.

He was the Leafs player who was never meant to be from the start, Bryan Little was the guy the Leafs were hoping for all along and thanks to the Thrashers he was never a Leaf. But my guess is, if Little was a Leaf, he's just be another Stajan or Bozak.

I remember reading the Leafs really liked Little. If I remember right, we won the last game of the regular season, which allowed Atlanta to move in the draft and grab Little. There was a bit of a debate on here from OHL followers, suggesting we should have taken a look at Chris Stewart, rather than drafting Tlusty.

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