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MLD2011 - Mickey Ion SF - (1) Regina Capitals vs. (5) New New York Awesome Express

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Old
08-24-2011, 09:00 AM
  #26
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- your propensity to judge forwards strictly by goals is beginning to trouble me. saleski was really not much better at putting up points than erixon.
Erixon top 5 seasons: 30,29,26,26,25
Salesk top 5 seasonsi: 47,45,40,38,28.

Erixon career high goals: 8
Saleski career high goals: 27

Erixon career high assists: 25
Saleski career high assists: 26

I know you keep going with per game rates trying to prop up a guy who was so brittle he couldn't finish a single season, but come on.. give it up. He missed so many games that doing per game rates is pretty disingenuous.

Erixon is pretty much a non-factor offensively.

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08-24-2011, 09:58 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Erixon top 5 seasons: 30,29,26,26,25
Salesk top 5 seasonsi: 47,45,40,38,28.

Erixon career high goals: 8
Saleski career high goals: 27

Erixon career high assists: 25
Saleski career high assists: 26

I know you keep going with per game rates trying to prop up a guy who was so brittle he couldn't finish a single season, but come on.. give it up. He missed so many games that doing per game rates is pretty disingenuous.

Erixon is pretty much a non-factor offensively.
Thank you BC, Saleski is much better offensively than Erixon. Sure he's a "goon that can play" but that goon is much better than your coveted Erixon, who is the best defensive player of the six third liners, but far and away the least effective offensively.

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08-24-2011, 10:03 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
Fair enough.
Barber - Clarke - Leach was the go-to line for offense, and of course they were a good defensive line, but Shero obviously didn't overplay that line to shutdown, and to rely on for offensive production. Enter Schultz - Kindrachuk - Saleski, who were very well an effective shutdown line. They were often pitted against the likes of Shutt - Mahovlich - Lafleur, and some of the most lethal lines of the 70's. And it certainly helped that this line had some offensive upside.

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08-24-2011, 10:49 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- ok, let me clarify. assists were legitimately (officially) recorded, they just werent issued as commonly as later on in history. i am sure that many of things were done that would count as assists today. but what makes you think it was all Riley doing those things?

- the pcha had about 0.5 assists per goal in its history, and we have used similar assist totals from the early nhl and reconstructed nha stats to conclude many people are good playmakers or otherwise. dont pretend that these numbers dont indicate that riley was very one-dimensional offensively.

- dont forget that your line's ability to generate offense is going to come from the TOTAL offensive ability of all players, not just the sum of one players' goalscoring and another's playmaking. riley could score some goals but as an overall offensive threat he was not dominant. those percentages i quoted are with pcha assists "normalized", which hurts him but they are versus the #2 scorer of a "half league" which helps him greatly. those figures are nowhere near Gracie, and that is before you consider linemates.

the one expplanation that youre not considering is that maybe riley was just a mediocre player who benefitted from playing with a hhofer and another who should be. yes he kept up with them in that one season but the larger six-season sample size i provided clearly shows he usually didnt.

- your quote says Riley once practiced at defense. forgive me for not being convinced by that one.



- a training camp quote? come on, you have to do better than that.

- i realize toughness and pims dont perfectly correlate. see mike grier. i am just saying he doesnt appear to have the same chip on his shoulder that the other sutters did. i could be wrong, but if i am, there should be info out there.

- i already showed you that mccourt's production doesnt even match stumpel's, and stumpel is mediocre. lets not get caught up in the terminology. if you dont like the "bargain basement" term, that is fine. but he's very lacking in demonstrated production. only tim young jumps to mind as a guy with less.



- ok, i guess i dont really get the point of bringing up warwick's oshl year, but ok.

- sinisalo's strength is goalscoring, and his record as a goalscorer is not remotely close to warwick's by any measure. his record as a point producer is even further away. when a post expansion player cant post the percentages that a pre-expansion guy did, that's what we call a slam dunk.

- how do you know he was better than warwick on the pp? and arent we comparing 2nd lines and not pp units? pp goals dont make a player clutch, and gwg goals are a weak indicator, at best.



- first, lets get one thing straight. Bobby Clarke says hi. that was the shutdown line, the one that got the tough assignments.

- i stand by what i said about Erixon having more *defensive* ability than your whole line. this guy had selke votes in 5 seasons. kindrachuk never did (or did he once?) saleski was a goon playing with a better player.

- your propensity to judge forwards strictly by goals is beginning to trouble me. saleski was really not much better at putting up points than erixon. yes, look at goals exclusively, and it looks worse than it was. the difference in point totals between kindrachuk and saleski tell you all you need to know. kindrachuk participated in a lot of goals that saleski didnt have a part in.



- WOW. you have a lot of information to provide, in order to legitimately claim that the "exuberant" Ruuttu is anywhere near boutette, tucker, grier, or even irvine in intangibles. until you do, that claim is dubious if not laughable. i politely declined the quote pissing match; would you like me to chamge my mind?

- you have to understand that bubnik will get limited minuted with limited players, he is not enough to rise the line above the vanilla offensive wasteland that is the mld 4th line.

- re: bubnik and golonka, that comparison is deeply flawed for two very important reasons. one, there is no good reason to just compare olympic records when they played as many games in the worlds, which were the same tournaments with the same competition. they have basically the same ppg average based on that, with golonka playing more games. which brings me to number two. competition. bubnik's international career was from 52 to 63. golonka's was from 59 to 69. that is a major difference! bubnik's career total is hugely padded by a couple of big tournaments such as 1955, when the only player present confirmed to have nhl ability was bill warwick. he played two tournaments before the soviets even sent a team! golonka was playing firsov, starshinov, loktev, alexandrov, ragulin, davydov, ivanov, and canadian amateurs that actually played in the nhl, even if they didnt star. your comparison was an offense to statistics and to golonka.

do me a favour and pay attention to all-star voting when comparing second and third pairings at least, alright?
Well still if Riley isn't as good as a playmaker as he could've been (no harm in suggesting he's possibly effective in an era where assists weren't recorded accordingly, the PCHA seems to be the one league in which assists were recorded officially (according to you) 39 assists for 100 goals just doesn't seem right, I just don't see how you can conclude or justify that Riley is missing assists that were recorded when there isn't even 50% assists than there were goals.

He's still a pretty lethal goal scorer to have on a first line.

I'm not telling you I'm moving him to defense or telling you he was the original power forward? I'm just saying they were comfortable with having a guy of his stature and potential defensive ability. Unfortunately there's extremely scarce information on Riley. I don't know what more maybe SIHR has to say about him, but we know Riley is at the very least an average first line goal scorer, and I'm willing to say he's above average. We don't know he's even an average playmaker, but there's legitimate reason to believe perhaps he isn't getting all the playmaking credit he possibly had, you can't excuse the fact that because the assists aren't there makes him an inept playmaker, the fact that it's from the 1920's and close to no providing evidence on the matter.

Well it's a quote that provides evidence that Sutter had some degree of toughness. Clearly Magnuson wasn't going to beat him senseless right there and then, but wanted to see if he had any toughness at all, which Magnuson and the coaching staff claimed they were impressed by. Sure he wasn't as two-way as some of his siblings, but it's not a long shot to say he had some defensive ability. He was renowned as a very hard-working player, who gave it his all for the Blackhawks.

Besides your percentage theory how is Stumpel is more productive than McCourt? Stumpel played on half-decent teams contrary to his contemporary, McCourt was a strong offensive player on a bottom-feeding team, he was very consistent, it's not that I don't like the term, I just don't think McCourt deserves to be classified under it, especially where he was a strong first line center and put up good numbers.

Warwick's best season in goals: 22
Sinisalo's best season in goals: 39

Huh?

Sinisalo had a career GPG of 0.48, Warwick had a career GPG of 0.51. That's not far off, nor does it imply Sinisalo is "not even remotely close" to Warwick, that's a pretty brutal and unfair statement to make.

Sinisalo has some great finishes on the power play, including 19 goals one year, respectable percentages like 55%, 50%. What evidence do we have that Warwick is "even remotely close" to that?

My reasoning for my third line is in response to Stoneberg's comment, and your comment about Erixon being superior defensively than my entire line is still grossly absurd and laughable, your overrating of him is sick.

Pelletier's bio of Ruuttu explains he has intangibles? did you ignore that? He is not lacking in that department. And the fact Bubnik is on the line, he will produce offense, not much because of his limited minutes, you can't ignore his offense prowess. He stilled played against players like Sologubov, Bobrov and Tregubov who definitely aren't pushovers, so it's not like he was competing against total amateurs, Golonka had better competition, but 10 points difference in one game is a little flattering.

I don't know where to find those records, if you could supply me with the source I'll probably pay attention to them.

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08-24-2011, 11:59 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

- first, lets get one thing straight. Bobby Clarke says hi. that was the shutdown line, the one that got the tough assignments.
I was wondering when someone would finally call this out. The Flyers were absolutely loaded with defensively responsibly centers. They had MacLeish who was okay in his own end, but other than him, they had Bobby Clarke, Terry Crisp, Orest Kindrachuk, and an undrafted ESPN commentator - all known to be good to great defensively players.

It means Kindrachuk wasn't matched in a shut down role, but I'm more interested in what it means for Clarke. We're all away of Clarke's ridiculously low GA, and obviously it's great regardless, but the composition of his team sure helped share the defensive burden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Barber - Clarke - Leach was the go-to line for offense, and of course they were a good defensive line, but Shero obviously didn't overplay that line to shutdown, and to rely on for offensive production. Enter Schultz - Kindrachuk - Saleski, who were very well an effective shutdown line. They were often pitted against the likes of Shutt - Mahovlich - Lafleur, and some of the most lethal lines of the 70's. And it certainly helped that this line had some offensive upside.
I'm not even convinced Kindrachuk got tougher defensive assignements than Terry Crisp or Bill Clement.

The Flyers had 5 centers on their roster (Clark, MacLeish, Kindrachuk, Clement, and Crisp). Only MacLeish doesn't have a strong defensive reputation. All 5 centers appeared to be regulars in the lineup, at least in 74-75 (obviously one of them had to be taking significant shifts on wing).


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08-24-2011, 12:04 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Erixon top 5 seasons: 30,29,26,26,25
Salesk top 5 seasonsi: 47,45,40,38,28.

Erixon career high goals: 8

Saleski career high goals: 27

Erixon career high assists: 25
Saleski career high assists: 26

I know you keep going with per game rates trying to prop up a guy who was so brittle he couldn't finish a single season, but come on.. give it up. He missed so many games that doing per game rates is pretty disingenuous.

Erixon is pretty much a non-factor offensively.
Holy crap, career high 8 goals? That's pathetic. Even Jay Pandolfo, my gold standard for "hands of stone" broke 10 goals 5 times (in a lower scoring era)!

The counter argument is that Saleski was a goon propped up by playing with Kindrachuk, but I can't see how that can account for the huge difference.

I mean, Saleski wasn't exactly a scoring force himself - but he's more likely to chip in a point or two in this series than Erixon.

Erixon is obviously the much better defensive player.

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08-24-2011, 12:07 PM
  #32
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repeat post - 70s, be a dear and delete please.

(since only mods can delete posts)


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08-24-2011, 12:14 PM
  #33
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Well still if Riley isn't as good as a playmaker as he could've been (no harm in suggesting he's possibly effective in an era where assists weren't recorded accordingly, the PCHA seems to be the one league in which assists were recorded officially (according to you) 39 assists for 100 goals just doesn't seem right, I just don't see how you can conclude or justify that Riley is missing assists that were recorded when there isn't even 50% assists than there were goals.
The PCHA did record assists officially, it's not just "according to seventies." Props to you for not just taking his word for everything though.

I have mixed feelings on what the assist totals from early eras mean.

To answer your question, back then, a much larger percentage of goals were scored on individual rushes than today, so there were fewer legitimate assists to hand out.

But also, I'm pretty sure the only assists they handed out were on what we would today call something like "nice assists," passes that led directly to a goal. Secondary assists and rebound assists didn't count, nor did passing the puck to a guy who then did the work to deke the goal and score. The assist had to actually lead directly to a goal. Someone like Iain can correct me on this one, but I think I'm correct.

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08-24-2011, 12:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Holy crap, career high 8 goals? That's pathetic. Even Jay Pandolfo, my gold standard for "hands of stone" broke 10 goals 5 times (in a lower scoring era)!

The counter argument is that Saleski was a goon propped up by playing with Kindrachuk, but I can't see how that can account for the huge difference.

I mean, Saleski wasn't exactly a scoring force himself - but he's more likely to chip in a point or two in this series than Erixon.

Erixon is obviously the much better defensive player.
Haha, and you wondered why I was baffled by all of the Erixon/Libett discussion...

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08-24-2011, 12:24 PM
  #35
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I don't remember Flyers using any line regularly to shut down the oppositions best lines. As many has already mentioned Flyers had 5 centers who could shutdown most players. There wasn't a need for a special line.

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08-24-2011, 12:27 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Holy crap, career high 8 goals? That's pathetic. Even Jay Pandolfo, my gold standard for "hands of stone" broke 10 goals 5 times (in a lower scoring era)!

The counter argument is that Saleski was a goon propped up by playing with Kindrachuk, but I can't see how that can account for the huge difference.

I mean, Saleski wasn't exactly a scoring force himself - but he's more likely to chip in a point or two in this series than Erixon.

Erixon is obviously the much better defensive player.
It's humerous that Erixon never scored more than 10 goals at any level of hockey during his career. His defense was so strong though that he was drafted in the 2nd round.

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08-24-2011, 12:29 PM
  #37
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I don't remember Flyers using any line regularly to shut down the oppositions best lines. As many has already mentioned Flyers had 5 centers who could shutdown most players. There wasn't a need for a special line.
This annoys me during the assassination/team building phase. Its like sometimes in this draft if you don't have a designated "shutdown" line you're not going to be good enough defensively. Even if you have 4 good defensive centers it doesn't matter to some people....

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08-24-2011, 01:00 PM
  #38
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This annoys me during the assassination/team building phase. Its like sometimes in this draft if you don't have a designated "shutdown" line you're not going to be good enough defensively. Even if you have 4 good defensive centers it doesn't matter to some people....
I can't do anything but agree.

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08-24-2011, 01:00 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Holy crap, career high 8 goals? That's pathetic. Even Jay Pandolfo, my gold standard for "hands of stone" broke 10 goals 5 times (in a lower scoring era)!

The counter argument is that Saleski was a goon propped up by playing with Kindrachuk, but I can't see how that can account for the huge difference.

I mean, Saleski wasn't exactly a scoring force himself - but he's more likely to chip in a point or two in this series than Erixon.

Erixon is obviously the much better defensive player.
I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this the last go around.

Although, seventies was doing his best to muddy the waters with per game and es only stats etc..

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08-24-2011, 01:02 PM
  #40
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This annoys me during the assassination/team building phase. Its like sometimes in this draft if you don't have a designated "shutdown" line you're not going to be good enough defensively. Even if you have 4 good defensive centers it doesn't matter to some people....
Agreed, there seems to be an almost set in stone team composition in these things and it needs to end.

All the variations of line responsibilities can work with the right personnel.

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08-24-2011, 02:12 PM
  #41
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The PCHA did record assists officially, it's not just "according to seventies." Props to you for not just taking his word for everything though.

I have mixed feelings on what the assist totals from early eras mean.

To answer your question, back then, a much larger percentage of goals were scored on individual rushes than today, so there were fewer legitimate assists to hand out.

But also, I'm pretty sure the only assists they handed out were on what we would today call something like "nice assists," passes that led directly to a goal. Secondary assists and rebound assists didn't count, nor did passing the puck to a guy who then did the work to deke the goal and score. The assist had to actually lead directly to a goal. Someone like Iain can correct me on this one, but I think I'm correct.
Yeah that's potentially what I'm getting at, secondary assists were most likely obsolete when it came to recording assists. I know goals on rushes were much more frequent, but to reiterate there is reason to believe, in legitimacy, Riley was definitely involved in the Mets' secondary assists.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Haha, and you wondered why I was baffled by all of the Erixon/Libett discussion...
I just didn't see the need to try and prove Erixon as a good offensive player, he's an absolute dud offensively when Libett's offense suitable for a MLD second line.

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I don't remember Flyers using any line regularly to shut down the oppositions best lines. As many has already mentioned Flyers had 5 centers who could shutdown most players. There wasn't a need for a special line.
All four of their lines were capable of playing defense against the opposition, safe to say there was no clear "shutdown line" but as Kindrachuk spoke of, his line would often be matched up against the opposition's top line, given the task to shut down the offensive opportunities.

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This annoys me during the assassination/team building phase. Its like sometimes in this draft if you don't have a designated "shutdown" line you're not going to be good enough defensively. Even if you have 4 good defensive centers it doesn't matter to some people....
I guess a designated shut down line is a little overplayed. (Definitely by me) but I think it's important to have one very strong defensive line, that can play responsible defense to try and eliminate prominent scoring chances coming from the opposition's top line.

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08-24-2011, 02:28 PM
  #42
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Second Pairings:

Jack Portland - Barry Gibbs vs. Sheldon Souray - Brent Seabrook

Seventies may disagree, but I see Barry Gibbs and Brent Seabrook as pretty similar players. Both are defenseman with a little better defensive ability than offensive ability, making them solid two-way defensemen. Gibbs has a pretty displeasing on-ice goals against total, as well as power play goals against total. Seabrook had one bad season of on-ice goals against total, but he plays in a slightly lower scoring era. He's great at controlling play in his end and is a pretty solid defenseman. Gibbs was much rougher, and had some pretty high PIM totals. Seabrook is occasionally rough and hits hard, but Gibbs is the more aggressive, rougher of the two. Jack Portland is a stay-at-home defenseman, who like Armstrong will contribute close to no offense, albeit he is a solid defensive defenseman who can cover for Gibbs if he decides to rush with the puck. Sheldon Souray had a very high peak, and is a big-bodied defenseman, he can protect his teammates and clear any players from the front of the net. He isn't complete defensively, but he is fairly good offensively, and his big shot from the point will be useful.

The Capitals hold a slight advantage on the second pairing, Gibbs and Seabrook are solid #3 defenseman. But Portland's defensive ability outweighs Souray's offensive contribution.

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08-24-2011, 02:40 PM
  #43
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Third Pairings:

Gary Sargent - Bingo Kampman vs. Bret Hedican - Pat Quinn

I like the idea of your defensive corps, one two-way defenseman paired with a defensive defenseman. Sargent was injury prone, but when he was healthy he was a decent two-way defenseman, I think he's good offensively, but not great. Bret Hedican may be the fastest of all defenseman in the series, he'll be relied on to get back and prevent scoring chances with his quickness. Pat Quinn is a two-way defenseman who was an intimidating, punishing hitter who will be an effective player when it comes to stopping players one-on-one, or crossing the blue line. Bingo Kampman is a solid bottom pairing defenseman who played great defense in his very short career.

I believe the pairings are even in effectiveness. Someone may beg to differ due to some accolades, but I think a fast defensive defenseman, and a mean-spirited defenseman are just as effective as the Capitals third pairing.

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08-24-2011, 06:02 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It means Kindrachuk wasn't matched in a shut down role, but I'm more interested in what it means for Clarke. We're all away of Clarke's ridiculously low GA, and obviously it's great regardless, but the composition of his team sure helped share the defensive burden.
Yeah, I've wondered about that. Especially since Clarke's ridiculously low GA was so extreme in 74-75 and 75-76 - way better than the surrounding seasons. Did Shero play Barber-Clarke-Leach in an all-out offensive role for those seasons and use his lower lines as shutdown units?

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08-24-2011, 06:53 PM
  #45
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Yeah, I've wondered about that. Especially since Clarke's ridiculously low GA was so extreme in 74-75 and 75-76 - way better than the surrounding seasons. Did Shero play Barber-Clarke-Leach in an all-out offensive role for those seasons and use his lower lines as shutdown units?
There are obviously a lot more factors than just Clarke in that statistic even if he is a big part of it. I've been beating that drum for a while.

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08-24-2011, 10:10 PM
  #46
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Goaltending:

Billy Nicholson and Earl Robertson vs. Eddie Johnston and Jose Theodore

I don't know what to say about Nicholson, he seems to be a very slow goaltender, although he had a lot of success in his day. His win/loss record is fine at this level. I'll need to see what kind of team played in front of him before making a final judgement. Johnston played on some pretty miserable Bruins teams in the 60's which took a toll on his W/L percentage, but he elevated his play when the team improved, and was a top goaltender in the league and was part of two Stanley Cups, one of which he played the entire way through, and played a key role in the teams championship. Minus a cup championship, Jose Theodore's resume is just as impressive and possibly more impressive than Robertson's. Robertson had one winning seasons, while Theodore has received a point in 315 of 580 games, has won a Vezina, and has a SAST. As well as several top 10's in wins, shutouts, save percentage and goals-against-average. I'll wait to see what Nicholson's team was like to finalize my verdict.

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08-24-2011, 10:29 PM
  #47
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Coaching:

I know college hockey and the AHL are much different leagues, but when we drafted Red Berenson his college coaching record wasn't very enticing, nor do I find Cook's AHL resume as enticing. He coached a step-below the NHL, and coached far inferior players (Darren Haydar/Jason Krog like players), only a few ATD/MLD caliber players who had very short AHL careers, besides the help of Johnny Bower, which Cook wouldn't have had any influence on his play as he wasn't a goaltending coach. He's far and away the best AHL coach of all time, but I'm not sure how that will translate to dealing with much higher caliber players. While Randy Carlyle has had good success in his fairly short career, missing the playoffs once and winning the Stanley Cup in his second year, he has been known to get the most out of his bottom-line players (Pahlsson, Marchant, Moen, R.Niedermayer) he's a tactical and smart coach who has the ability to match lines well.

I think the Express hoist the coaching advantage because Cook is not a proven winner at the highest level, he's proven at a "B" level, but so were a lot of coaches who could never be successful after an AHL career, and why was he never given an opportunity from an NHL team?

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08-24-2011, 10:43 PM
  #48
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Goaltending:

Billy Nicholson and Earl Robertson vs. Eddie Johnston and Jose Theodore

I don't know what to say about Nicholson, he seems to be a very slow goaltender, although he had a lot of success in his day. His win/loss record is fine at this level. I'll need to see what kind of team played in front of him before making a final judgement. Johnston played on some pretty miserable Bruins teams in the 60's which took a toll on his W/L percentage, but he elevated his play when the team improved, and was a top goaltender in the league and was part of two Stanley Cups, one of which he played the entire way through, and played a key role in the teams championship. Minus a cup championship, Jose Theodore's resume is just as impressive and possibly more impressive than Robertson's. Robertson had one winning seasons, while Theodore has received a point in 315 of 580 games, has won a Vezina, and has a SAST. As well as several top 10's in wins, shutouts, save percentage and goals-against-average. I'll wait to see what Nicholson's team was like to finalize my verdict.
Robertson's team - the New York/Brooklyn Americans - was one of the worst teams of all-time and it's no coincidence that they were the team that went bankrupt as World War 2 began. I have a strong suspicion that Nicholson's 4th and 5th place finishes in Hart voting were the result of "good goalie doing everything he can on an awful team." I think there's a very good argument Theodore had a better career than Nicholson.

That said, how much do backup goalies matter in the playoffs?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-24-2011 at 11:24 PM. Reason: oops, dumb type
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08-24-2011, 10:52 PM
  #49
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Nicholson's team - the New York/Brooklyn Americans - was one of the worst teams of all-time and it's no coincidence that they were the team that went bankrupt as World War 2 began. I have a strong suspicion that Nicholson's 4th and 5th place finishes in Hart voting were the result of "good goalie doing everything he can on an awful team." I think there's a very good argument Theodore had a better career than Nicholson.

That said, how much do backup goalies matter in the playoffs?
That must be Robertson you're talking about similar last names. But I concur with your statement 100%. And they really shouldn't unless it comes down to injury where they may come in handy, that being said it's something that isn't really being taken into consideration here, nor should it be.

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08-24-2011, 11:24 PM
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That must be Robertson you're talking about similar last names. But I concur with your statement 100%. And they really shouldn't unless it comes down to injury where they may come in handy, that being said it's something that isn't really being taken into consideration here, nor should it be.
Eh, the names aren't that similar. Dumb typo... heh

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