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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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Old
08-23-2011, 10:37 PM
  #76
AntonCH
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do we need a fighter to be tough or just a roster full of tough gritty players?
Do the following qualify as tough?
Gionta
Cole
Kostitsyn
Pacioretty
Moen
White
Emelin
Subban
If these guys are indeed tough, does that not give us the balance everyone seeks? Or is it just the pugilist that will bring the balance?
IMHO, bring in an enforcer that offers something other than fighting skills and I'm all in, bring in a fighter and i'm certain that it will have almost zero impact

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08-23-2011, 10:40 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by sammy d View Post
Our team is built on speed...no problem

We do not need a goon who plays 4 minutes per game...no problem

However, we do need somone who plays a regular shift and can take on other teams heavyweights. This is certain.

Why? Because we are a small team, teams have no fear of any of our players, and I don`t care what any of you say, intimidation is still a huge part of this game. And I don`t care how gritty we play, Cammy biting at Chara`s ankles just won`t cut it. A heavyweight demands respect, makes opposing players think twice before they goon up one of our players. Plus our players would play 3 inches taller, its just 1 player, surely we can do that.
The way to beat the Bruins is to beat them in the neutral zone and get on top of their defense. Cole was a pretty good pickup. We're slowly getting tougher without giving up skill/brains. I don't care what anyone says, we need an upgrade on AK.

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08-24-2011, 12:03 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
The way to beat the Bruins is to beat them in the neutral zone and get on top of their defense. Cole was a pretty good pickup. We're slowly getting tougher without giving up skill/brains. I don't care what anyone says, we need an upgrade on AK.
Ak is a 20+ goal scorer who will be playing in our third line most likely, how many guys who can score that much do you think will be willing to play on the third line?

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08-24-2011, 12:04 AM
  #79
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Wish the Habs would trade for D. Clarkson, Z. Bogosian, P. Cormier and K. Clifford. All these guys are young and would add to the overall toughness of the team.

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Old
08-24-2011, 12:54 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
When management does something about it.
that day, you'll see a thread complaining we dont have enough skills in the line-up

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08-24-2011, 05:53 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Cole was playing for a contract and got a massive overpayment. No guarantees that Yemelin makes the team, or that his style translates well into the NHL level.

I suggested several players, maybe try reading it again.
What does is contract have anything to do with is toughness? Some of you are just As for being overpaid (which I disagree with if you know anything about the UFA market and the cap), guess what, we still have 5M to spend and nobody to give it to, so who cares.

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08-24-2011, 07:45 AM
  #82
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I'm up to the point with the toughness issue where I hope we see more and more games like the famous 8-6 game in Boston. People saying that we're fine now because we have Alexei Emelin and Erik Cole DO NOT understand what our need is now. You guys say that we're built around speed and skills, SO ****ING WHAT???!!! Look at Boston, Pittsburgh and Philly, all 3 teams had way more skills and speed then us, yet a team like Piitsburgh was able to fill their line-up with the likes of Godard, Asham, Engelland and Rupp all at once. Was it killing their skills? No it wasn't... You guys like to say that we make up excuses, well I think you guys are the biggest hypocrites here, cause at least as Habs fan we're able to identifie a problem with the team and not walk around with our rose collided glasses all day saying that we will win the cup just because we're the Habs.

Why can't we enjoy the show just like everybody else? Why are we the only team in the league thar excepts getting beat up and verbally threatened without consequences?

A fighter brings entertainment, protection and even sometimes motivation to a line-up that badly needs it. Getting a Chris Niel, a Shawn Thornton or even a Colton Orr will not be the cause of why Cammalleri doesn't score 40 goals or that Price has a 900 sv% average, get over yourselves.

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08-24-2011, 08:08 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I'm up to the point with the toughness issue where I hope we see more and more games like the famous 8-6 game in Boston. People saying that we're fine now because we have Alexei Emelin and Erik Cole DO NOT understand what our need is now. You guys say that we're built around speed and skills, SO ****ING WHAT???!!! Look at Boston, Pittsburgh and Philly, all 3 teams had way more skills and speed then us, yet a team like Piitsburgh was able to fill their line-up with the likes of Godard, Asham, Engelland and Rupp all at once. Was it killing their skills? No it wasn't... You guys like to say that we make up excuses, well I think you guys are the biggest hypocrites here, cause at least as Habs fan we're able to identifie a problem with the team and not walk around with our rose collided glasses all day saying that we will win the cup just because we're the Habs.

Why can't we enjoy the show just like everybody else? Why are we the only team in the league thar excepts getting beat up and verbally threatened without consequences?

A fighter brings entertainment, protection and even sometimes motivation to a line-up that badly needs it. Getting a Chris Niel, a Shawn Thornton or even a Colton Orr will not be the cause of why Cammalleri doesn't score 40 goals or that Price has a 900 sv% average, get over yourselves.
Very well said.

The successful Habs teams of the past always had at least one very good fighter and usually 2 or 3.

I love White and he reminds me of Nilan a little. Moen is okay but after that we have
nothnig.

Telling me players like Subban and Gionta are tough is a joke. They play a gritty game but its not the same thing.

The most embarrassing game I have ever watched was last year's 8-6 beatdown. To see Spacek , Pyatt and Hamrlik get severely beaten was horrible. We had no one to go out to help them or "avenge" them.

I love to watch skilled hockey but it does not always match up well with "tough-in your face hockey".

We are a skilled team but not that skilled.We are not the Flying Frenchmen anymore when we were loaded with stars. We are a middle of the road team who need a little jam in our lineup.

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Old
08-24-2011, 08:12 AM
  #84
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Who remembers the deafening NILAN! NILAN! chants that made the forum shake whenever there was a REMOTE late hit or disrespect from another team. The energy was amazing, and you just new the dude on the other team was crapping his pants. Then he would step on the ice and guess what. He would get his ass kicked. Then guess what. Keane would wallop some other guy's face. It was automatic. The other teams knew that to behave a certain way had painfull consequences. I doubt they give a rat's kazoo wether the fans boo them as the ONLY consequence to intimidation. How lame.

Intimidation WINS games. It gives you space and time, it gives you confidence, it makes the other guys take worse descisions in the fastest game on earth.

Playing against Montreal looks like a complete night off for any team that has grit nowadays. Seeing a guy get face rubbed or cross checked in front of the net, or the the goalie being interfered with, or a rookie getting boarded like Eller did against Buffalo, or Max having his neck broken but NO retaliation makes me want to puke. It's not even hockey.

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08-24-2011, 08:33 AM
  #85
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Toughness =/= Fighting.
Why is this so difficult to understand.
Sure having a protector is great, but that's far from being the difference in being tough or not. We'd be better protected, not tougher.
Ottawa has a bunch of them, who here thinks Ottawa is a tough team?

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08-24-2011, 08:47 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Toughness =/= Fighting.
Why is this so difficult to understand.
Sure having a protector is great, but that's far from being the difference in being tough or not. We'd be better protected, not tougher.
Ottawa has a bunch of them, who here thinks Ottawa is a tough team?
Pretty obvious to me that the OP was talking about get a protector, fighter, enforcer or whatever you want to call it. You guys have got to stop with that "but we have players that can hit" argument as if we don't know...

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08-24-2011, 09:55 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Pretty obvious to me that the OP was talking about get a protector, fighter, enforcer or whatever you want to call it. You guys have got to stop with that "but we have players that can hit" argument as if we don't know...
Call a spade a spade.
You want to talk about enforcers, then talk about enforcers, not toughness. That alone would eliminate some of the circular debate with one side saying we need toughness and the other saying we already have it.
I don't think you'll find ONE fan that is against bringing in an enforcer. You will have different opinions when discussing the importance of such an addition but nobody will be against it.
I certainly don't feel like it's something management needs to be criticised for, especially not when they filled up a more glaring hole (top6).
An enforcer can be signed, called up, traded for, at any time during the season. You don't need to show yourself desperate during the summer and overpay for a guy like Rupp.
If during the season, White-Moen-Emelin-Gill-Darche prove themselves incapable of protecting our players in the way they can, and an enforcer becomes a clear necessity, then I'm fully confident the proper adjustments will be made. They did it last year with Markov-Gorges-Spacek going down, they did it this summer with Cole, so there's no reason to doubt them.
Making a thread about management not getting it is not only premature and ironic (considering they've proven capable of identifying important roles and filling them up), but it's simply stupid.

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Old
08-24-2011, 10:22 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think you'll find ONE fan that is against bringing in an enforcer. You will have different opinions when discussing the importance of such an addition but nobody will be against it.
Oh, I certainly am. Enforcers are patently useless and hurt their team because they're crappy hockey players. The idea that fighting prevents or deters anything is a complete myth; it is purely an entertaining (and dangerous!) sideshow. Hiring an enforcer would be, at best, a waste of cap space on a player that'll spend the season in the pressbox.

I applaud PG for what he's done on the subject -- it hints that Habs management does, in fact, "get it".


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Old
08-24-2011, 10:57 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Call a spade a spade.
You want to talk about enforcers, then talk about enforcers, not toughness. That alone would eliminate some of the circular debate with one side saying we need toughness and the other saying we already have it.
I don't think you'll find ONE fan that is against bringing in an enforcer. You will have different opinions when discussing the importance of such an addition but nobody will be against it.
I certainly don't feel like it's something management needs to be criticised for, especially not when they filled up a more glaring hole (top6).
An enforcer can be signed, called up, traded for, at any time during the season. You don't need to show yourself desperate during the summer and overpay for a guy like Rupp.
If during the season, White-Moen-Emelin-Gill-Darche prove themselves incapable of protecting our players in the way they can, and an enforcer becomes a clear necessity, then I'm fully confident the proper adjustments will be made. They did it last year with Markov-Gorges-Spacek going down, they did it this summer with Cole, so there's no reason to doubt them.
Making a thread about management not getting it is not only premature and ironic (considering they've proven capable of identifying important roles and filling them up), but it's simply stupid.
"Premature?" Non fighters being jumped and pummeled by goons...broken necks...separated shoulders from being boarded by grinning thugs....goalies being shoved/crosschecked....rookies being intimidated/threatened by vets.....Premature?
Oh and having Matt Darche as a "protector" wouldnt exactly make me feel safe on the ice.

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Old
08-24-2011, 10:58 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Oh, I certainly am. Enforcers are patently useless and hurt their team because they're crappy hockey players. The idea that fighting prevents or deters anything is a complete myth; it is purely an entertaining (and dangerous!) sideshow. Hiring an enforcer would be, at best, a waste of cap space on a player that'll spend the season in the pressbox.

I applaud PG for what he's done on the subject -- it hints that Habs management does, in fact, "get it".
I wouldn't go as far as to say that I'm against it. I can see some purpose for such a player during the regular season, but as I said many times, I won't lose any sleep if we don't have one.

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Old
08-24-2011, 11:02 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I'm up to the point with the toughness issue where I hope we see more and more games like the famous 8-6 game in Boston. People saying that we're fine now because we have Alexei Emelin and Erik Cole DO NOT understand what our need is now. You guys say that we're built around speed and skills, SO ****ING WHAT???!!! Look at Boston, Pittsburgh and Philly, all 3 teams had way more skills and speed then us, yet a team like Piitsburgh was able to fill their line-up with the likes of Godard, Asham, Engelland and Rupp all at once. Was it killing their skills? No it wasn't... You guys like to say that we make up excuses, well I think you guys are the biggest hypocrites here, cause at least as Habs fan we're able to identifie a problem with the team and not walk around with our rose collided glasses all day saying that we will win the cup just because we're the Habs.

Why can't we enjoy the show just like everybody else? Why are we the only team in the league thar excepts getting beat up and verbally threatened without consequences?

A fighter brings entertainment, protection and even sometimes motivation to a line-up that badly needs it. Getting a Chris Niel, a Shawn Thornton or even a Colton Orr will not be the cause of why Cammalleri doesn't score 40 goals or that Price has a 900 sv% average, get over yourselves.
LOL at Boston faster than us. ****, Boston fans will admit they're not faster than us.

Chris Neil, or a David Clarkson is what this team needs. However, with Martin at the helm we'll never get that.

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Old
08-24-2011, 11:13 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by NSHabs View Post
"Premature?" Non fighters being jumped and pummeled by goons...broken necks...separated shoulders from being boarded by grinning thugs....goalies being shoved/crosschecked....rookies being intimidated/threatened by vets.....Premature?
Oh and having Matt Darche as a "protector" wouldnt exactly make me feel safe on the ice.
You'd probably make wicked campaign commercials.

And just for fun...

Non fighters being jumped and pummeled by goons Like Moen clocking Gudbranson?
Separated shoulders from being boarded by grinning thugs Sounds similar to Lapierre on Nichol. Or any number of Kostitsyn's borderline hits.
Goalies being shoved/crosschecked Happens every game to every team. Subban on Lundqvist springs to mind.
Rookies being intimidated/threatened by vets Didn't Cammalleri get suspended for doing just that at the beginning of last season?

I'll give you the broken neck thing though. Can't remember a Hab breaking anybody's neck recently.

I don't know if it's part of the victim complex our fanbase seems to have or something else, but this idea that ours is the only team that suffers from all these injustices on the ice is just not reality. We're not the most injured team, and we're in fact probably dirtier than a lot of other teams in the league.

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08-24-2011, 12:01 PM
  #93
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LOL at Boston faster than us. ****, Boston fans will admit they're not faster than us.

Chris Neil, or a David Clarkson is what this team needs. However, with Martin at the helm we'll never get that.
It's bostin's d core that makes the reputation that they're slow, but even then, let's say your right, they're still more skilled then we are and having Shawn Thornton and Greg Campbell on that team does not make them score less goals then us. It makes the rest of the team the ability to play their game, whatever it is.

Oh, and a big fat at mathman's post, fights have been part of hockey longer then both our lives put together, if you don't like it then go watch the KHL or curling.

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08-24-2011, 12:20 PM
  #94
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Oh, and a big fat at mathman's post, fights have been part of hockey longer then both our lives put together, if you don't like it then go watch the KHL or curling.
The difference is, fighters used to be able to play. Chris Nilan's player type basically doesn't exist anymore. Obviously, a Chara is useful, but he's one of a kind in today's NHL. Anyone who can take on heavyweights, who may be available to the Habs, is a negative as far as actually playing hockey.

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08-24-2011, 01:37 PM
  #95
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It's bostin's d core that makes the reputation that they're slow, but even then, let's say your right, they're still more skilled then we are and having Shawn Thornton and Greg Campbell on that team does not make them score less goals then us. It makes the rest of the team the ability to play their game, whatever it is.

Oh, and a big fat at mathman's post, fights have been part of hockey longer then both our lives put together, if you don't like it then go watch the KHL or curling.
Fighting has been part of the game since forever, but the ecology of modern fighters is a relatively recent development, only really starting in the 80's. Because the modern fighter is a specialist they are a lot bigger and better fighters than those from the 70's and early and conversely its much harder to be top fighter and a decent player. Guys like Nilan and Fegerson were good hockey players that also happened to be tough but the relative value of that has gone down since the tough guy role got more specialized.

In any case with the top-9 forwards essentially set, any addition will be a low minute 4th liner that wouldn't spend enough time on ice to effect anything in the first place so the concept is silly on its face.

And if Vancouver was intimidated in the finals, what does it say about Montreal that they played the same team and showed no signs of being affected by Boston's "toughness"? Habs fans also need to outgrow the complex that their team is more victimized by cheap shots than anyone elses.

Cheap shot artists aren't even fighters anymore so trying to stop them with a tough guy is an exercise in futility. Lapierre did plenty of running around in a Habs sweater and opposing "tough guys" did precious little to stop it.

Thorton and Campbell's principle value is that they are better than your typical 4th liner so Boston has something of a forward depth advantage. The physical stuff is just a bonus.

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08-24-2011, 02:04 PM
  #96
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Oh, and a big fat at mathman's post, fights have been part of hockey longer then both our lives put together, if you don't like it then go watch the KHL or curling.
So was playing without a helmet. Then they said "hey, this is stupid" and changed the rules. Nevermind that, as pointed out above, back in the days what we had was hockey players who would fight, and no fighters who can't play hockey, and that the skill-less goon is a new, modern development.

In fact, the very notion that there's demand for "fighters who can play hockey" and the fact that these guys are rare, points to an important development in hockey mentalities: the point is not that people want a regular fighter who can play hockey, it's that nobody wants a player who can play hockey to also fight regularly. It accomplishes little useful and puts an useful guy in the penalty box for 5 minutes, in the best-case scenario (as the risk of injury is very real). Which, I suspect, is why fighting was slowly handed out to players with no other useful capability. Hockey skills are too precious to waste on dangerous extracurricular activities like fighting.


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08-24-2011, 02:06 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Fighting has been part of the game since forever, but the ecology of modern fighters is a relatively recent development, only really starting in the 80's. Because the modern fighter is a specialist they are a lot bigger and better fighters than those from the 70's and early and conversely its much harder to be top fighter and a decent player. Guys like Nilan and Fegerson were good hockey players that also happened to be tough but the relative value of that has gone down since the tough guy role got more specialized.

In any case with the top-9 forwards essentially set, any addition will be a low minute 4th liner that wouldn't spend enough time on ice to effect anything in the first place so the concept is silly on its face.

And if Vancouver was intimidated in the finals, what does it say about Montreal that they played the same team and showed no signs of being affected by Boston's "toughness"? Habs fans also need to outgrow the complex that their team is more victimized by cheap shots than anyone elses.

Cheap shot artists aren't even fighters anymore so trying to stop them with a tough guy is an exercise in futility. Lapierre did plenty of running around in a Habs sweater and opposing "tough guys" did precious little to stop it.

Thorton and Campbell's principle value is that they are better than your typical 4th liner so Boston has something of a forward depth advantage. The physical stuff is just a bonus.
So what's the problem to ask the Habs to get that type of players to play on our own 4th line ?

Never forget that the Bruins havle ALSO Lucic, Horton, Chara, Boychuck and McQuaid + buggers like Ference and Marchand

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08-24-2011, 02:27 PM
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It comes down to our 3rd line. With DD, Eller and AK, I'd say our 3rd line is more skilled than Pittsburgh, Boston, Washington, ect. The downside, we all know it, and we're discussing it now. However, with AK and Gomez (potentially) leaving next year, it might change next season.

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08-24-2011, 02:59 PM
  #99
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This is not whining.

This is a subject that many Habs fan feel that HAS been ignored.

Team toughness comes in many forms; all you had to do was look at playoffs last year and see how Marchand runs guys like Spacek with no detterent from our team.

You can trace this back from the Chara hit on Max to McLean's hit on Zednik years ago. The perception that you can run at our team with little concequence is REAL!! It DOES have an impact on the game when you don't get your skill player the room they need to make plays because they are INITIMATED!

It's real, it's been happening for years, so really STOP calling it whining.

Nobody wants to send a tough guy over the boards with little skill except to be the intimidator. But there were tough guys with some skill available and we missed them this year.... Rupp, Kanopka.

Moen and White are middle weights, we do need a bigger tougher guy on the fourth line, personally I would take one to replace Moen.

Wade Belak was just on Team 990 and said that when you walked into Philly you knew that you were going to be in a hockey game. When his teams played in Montreal, he knew that the toughness dimension was not something to worry about and that they could then concentrate on other things.
Yes, it is whining. Nothing more than "I'm right, the Habs are wrong, they should do what I want them to do because I said so and some other fans agree with me and Boston has guys that fight!" Just like they should sign Laracque because the fans say so and he's French. Just like they should trade Turgeon for Corson, just like they should draft another reject like Brent Bilodeau from the WHL because the fans say the team needs toughness!

I for one am glad that PG doesn't give a crap what fans like you think.

There's so much wrong with your post, don't know where to begin....

1) Just because some idiot threw a flying elbow at Zednik years ago, resulting in a huge suspension, doesn't mean he wouldn't have done it if the Habs had an "enforcer" in the lineup. Idiots will sometimes do idiotic things. Linking it to the lack of an enforcer is a ridiculous leap made all too often by Don Cherry fans. All sorts of suspension-worthy events have happened to teams of all types. Look no further than Cooke-on-Savard and Rome-on-Horton, both against the Big Bad B's, whose tough guys did nothing to prevent it nor to retailiate after the fact. Having an enforcer on the bench or even on the ice doesn't change the way guys play.

2) Marchand runs guys like Spacek, that's great. Is Marchand going to change that if we have Mike freakin' Rupp on our 4th line? No. The roster of Big Bad Bruins did absolutely nothing to scare Subban away from running Marchand over and over again.

3) The idea that enforcers create "room" for skill players is even more ludicrous. Do you honestly think Gionta, Plekanec, Cole, Cammy, Subban et al are actually INTIMIDATED by the opposition and therefore change the way they play? Does Cammy score more goals against pacifist teams like Detroit than Boston? I've never seen Gionta shy away from standing in front of the net or going into the corners with Chara just because the Bruins have a fighter sitting on the bench.

4) The Wade Belaks of the world want to feel important, so they'll say their teammates feel better with a Wade Belak on the bench and play "bigger". The flip side of that is that all NHL players must therefore be cowards, and shy away from contact and high traffic areas whenever Wade Belak is scratched in favour of John Pohl. This simply isn't true.

5) The perception that you can run at the other team with little consequence is in fact real and universal. But that's true whether the opponent has an enforcer or not. An enforcer is not going to go out and pummel a non-fighter for hitting a guy. This doesn't happen. Lapierre was never going to fight anyone, and he ran around throwing dirty hits all the time. If you really think this consequence-free perception changes when the other team dresses an enforcer, then find me evidence of a Marchand changing his style of play against Buffalo when a meathead like Kaleta was in the lineup. It doesn't happen.

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08-24-2011, 03:02 PM
  #100
BLONG7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino3176 View Post
Wish the Habs would trade for D. Clarkson, Z. Bogosian, P. Cormier and K. Clifford. All these guys are young and would add to the overall toughness of the team.
Maybe PG adds this type of player before the season starts, or after Xmas? Maybe he wants to see where this all goes at this point, and how the team stands up to the Big Bad Bruins?

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