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Old
08-23-2011, 11:31 AM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetimo View Post
Mine as well.

It is unthinkable we are going to enter the season with

SK Fisher Erat
Hornqvist Legwand Bergfors
Spaling Smithson Tootoo
Wilson Cal O stortini/Hals/Bam Bam

That lineup isn't going to scare anyone. I really hope Poile adds a forward by the time the season rolls around. If we have this lineup come november, I don't see how we can be above 10th in the west.

My top choices would be Andrei Kos or Bryan Little. Pipe dream Parise

I have to question your line of thought. Our line up last season was even worse and we were excited because it was a good deep group of forwards.

Now we have young guys who actually proved themselves and could get better. It is really just ignorant to not see how we finish above 10th with this line up in November when we finished in 5th last year with essentially the same thing only older and full of injuries. Plus there was a transition to a new leadership of Legwand and Erat when Sully got hurt, I don't think it was a coincidence that is when the team rose in the standings.

While adding a good forward would add us to the cup contender talk, I am not incredibly worried about it.

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08-23-2011, 11:33 AM
  #202
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We have a lot of 3rd scoring line type guys who can play 2nd line for a while. What we lack is a true top line winger.

AK is probably the easiest to acquire, but, he's more a 2nd line guy so far ... but if he nets 25+ it's one hell of a boost. Beyond AK, we're probably giving up a roster player at a minimum for the type player we'd want in return. A Kumelin or Benn will cost a lot to get but have demonstrated that they can put up points. I doubt that either is available, but if they are, expect to see somebody leave our roster that we probably want to keep.

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08-23-2011, 11:59 AM
  #203
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I'm not seeing how that roster is worse than last year. Fisher is better than Lombardi, even if you ignore the fact that Lombardi really didn't even play for us. Going into last season we had no idea whether or not SK was going to produce. He did, and quite a bit. That's after having spent the beginning of the year working his way up from the fourth line while playing on a broken toe/foot. Legwand and Erat are known qualities. If the team can stay healthy enough to keep both of them on a two-way line that focuses slightly more on offense than defense they should be enough of a threat to either score or make match ups more of a head ache for the other team. Spaling, Smithson, and Tootoo are also known qualities. That should be a very effective shutdown line, and if the chemistry they had towards the end of the season and in the play offs wasn't just a fluke they might actually threaten to put a few points up. The fourth line is all based on potential. O'Reilly showed signed of actually living up to his potential last season before breaking his leg. Wilson just finished his first real season bouncing around on lines, playing fourth line minutes at times, and being benched for shifts. Even with that happening he put up 34 points at 21 years old. That's just a few points behind Henrik Sedin and Jeff Carter (though Carter only played 62 games) at the same age, and just a few points more than Zach Parise and Daniel Sedin at the same age. That doesn't mean he will turn into any of those guys, but it isn't yet time to give up hope on his development.

For our offense to take big strides with the players we have right now it will take some luck, sure, but is it a bigger stretch to think that this line up can at least carry us as far as it did last year, or is it a bigger stretch to think this line up will plummet five spots in the standings?

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08-23-2011, 12:42 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I'm not seeing how that roster is worse than last year. Fisher is better than Lombardi, even if you ignore the fact that Lombardi really didn't even play for us. Going into last season we had no idea whether or not SK was going to produce. He did, and quite a bit. That's after having spent the beginning of the year working his way up from the fourth line while playing on a broken toe/foot. Legwand and Erat are known qualities. If the team can stay healthy enough to keep both of them on a two-way line that focuses slightly more on offense than defense they should be enough of a threat to either score or make match ups more of a head ache for the other team. Spaling, Smithson, and Tootoo are also known qualities. That should be a very effective shutdown line, and if the chemistry they had towards the end of the season and in the play offs wasn't just a fluke they might actually threaten to put a few points up. The fourth line is all based on potential. O'Reilly showed signed of actually living up to his potential last season before breaking his leg. Wilson just finished his first real season bouncing around on lines, playing fourth line minutes at times, and being benched for shifts. Even with that happening he put up 34 points at 21 years old. That's just a few points behind Henrik Sedin and Jeff Carter (though Carter only played 62 games) at the same age, and just a few points more than Zach Parise and Daniel Sedin at the same age. That doesn't mean he will turn into any of those guys, but it isn't yet time to give up hope on his development.

For our offense to take big strides with the players we have right now it will take some luck, sure, but is it a bigger stretch to think that this line up can at least carry us as far as it did last year, or is it a bigger stretch to think this line up will plummet five spots in the standings?
I think that's more likely IF Poile doesn't go out & get us a top line winger (Hornqvist, Kostitsyn, Erat & then there is a big drop off)

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08-23-2011, 12:50 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetimo View Post
Mine as well.

It is unthinkable we are going to enter the season with

SK Fisher Erat
Hornqvist Legwand Bergfors
Spaling Smithson Tootoo
Wilson Cal O stortini/Hals/Bam Bam

That lineup isn't going to scare anyone. I really hope Poile adds a forward by the time the season rolls around. If we have this lineup come november, I don't see how we can be above 10th in the west.

My top choices would be Andrei Kos or Bryan Little. Pipe dream Parise
Personally, I'm not particularly terrified by any of the Preds forwards, but that blueline and crease still gives me and fellow Jackets fans nightmares.

The other Kostitsyn and/or Little wouldn't do much to make the forward lineup "scary" either, if that's the metric you're most interested in.

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08-23-2011, 01:01 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Dave is a killer View Post
I think that's more likely IF Poile doesn't go out & get us a top line winger (Hornqvist, Kostitsyn, Erat & then there is a big drop off)
Possibly. A five spot drop off could only be a handful of points in the Western conference. I'm not convinced that the team has gotten worse, though I don't think it has necessarily gotten better either. I need the puck to drop

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08-23-2011, 01:29 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I'm not seeing how that roster is worse than last year. Fisher is better than Lombardi, even if you ignore the fact that Lombardi really didn't even play for us. Going into last season we had no idea whether or not SK was going to produce. He did, and quite a bit. That's after having spent the beginning of the year working his way up from the fourth line while playing on a broken toe/foot. Legwand and Erat are known qualities. If the team can stay healthy enough to keep both of them on a two-way line that focuses slightly more on offense than defense they should be enough of a threat to either score or make match ups more of a head ache for the other team. Spaling, Smithson, and Tootoo are also known qualities. That should be a very effective shutdown line, and if the chemistry they had towards the end of the season and in the play offs wasn't just a fluke they might actually threaten to put a few points up. The fourth line is all based on potential. O'Reilly showed signed of actually living up to his potential last season before breaking his leg. Wilson just finished his first real season bouncing around on lines, playing fourth line minutes at times, and being benched for shifts. Even with that happening he put up 34 points at 21 years old. That's just a few points behind Henrik Sedin and Jeff Carter (though Carter only played 62 games) at the same age, and just a few points more than Zach Parise and Daniel Sedin at the same age. That doesn't mean he will turn into any of those guys, but it isn't yet time to give up hope on his development.

For our offense to take big strides with the players we have right now it will take some luck, sure, but is it a bigger stretch to think that this line up can at least carry us as far as it did last year, or is it a bigger stretch to think this line up will plummet five spots in the standings?
I'm not arguing that we're "worse than last year," and I disagree with those that say we are.

But...I'm not as happy with "as good" or "a little better" than last year, a year that was, in terms of results...not good enough.

That's not even accounting for teams that finished around or below us that have improved, in some cases significantly. We scraped into the playoffs in terms of points. We could easily have finished 9th or 10th as we did fifth. This season looks to be the same outlook. I think that with the uncertainty surrounding not only Weber, but Suter and Rinne, the window isn't going to be open forever. If you're banking your best opportunity on Bergfors somehow getting it back together...that might not be the best way to seize an opportunity.

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08-23-2011, 02:02 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I'm not arguing that we're "worse than last year," and I disagree with those that say we are.

But...I'm not as happy with "as good" or "a little better" than last year, a year that was, in terms of results...not good enough.

That's not even accounting for teams that finished around or below us that have improved, in some cases significantly. We scraped into the playoffs in terms of points. We could easily have finished 9th or 10th as we did fifth. This season looks to be the same outlook. I think that with the uncertainty surrounding not only Weber, but Suter and Rinne, the window isn't going to be open forever. If you're banking your best opportunity on Bergfors somehow getting it back together...that might not be the best way to seize an opportunity.
I agree completely, and I'm displeased with the lack of tangible improvement to the roster just like pretty much everyone. The West is such a cluster**** that anything is possible. I do think (read: hope) that having Weber, Suter, and Rinne give us the edge in a close conference. You're right, though. Another move has to be made. All signs point to it.

After I posted that I began looking at it in a different light. I actually do think now that it's more likely we finish 10th than 5th. I think it's more likely we finish in the top 8 than in the bottom 7, though.

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08-23-2011, 03:09 PM
  #209
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We have decent forwards, but they are primarily 3rd scoring line with 2nd line max potential. We lack that dynamic scoring winger for the top six, preferably for the top line.

Guys like Benn, Kulemin, Skinner are hard to find and every team wants them. It's going to cost us big to get the type player we'd all like to see come back in return ... if anyone is willing to part with one. That's why guys like AK are so attractive ... the potential is there, but, the baggage makes them expendable.


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08-23-2011, 03:58 PM
  #210
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I'm not seeing how that roster is worse than last year. Fisher is better than Lombardi, even if you ignore the fact that Lombardi really didn't even play for us. Going into last season we had no idea whether or not SK was going to produce. He did, and quite a bit. That's after having spent the beginning of the year working his way up from the fourth line while playing on a broken toe/foot. Legwand and Erat are known qualities. If the team can stay healthy enough to keep both of them on a two-way line that focuses slightly more on offense than defense they should be enough of a threat to either score or make match ups more of a head ache for the other team. Spaling, Smithson, and Tootoo are also known qualities. That should be a very effective shutdown line, and if the chemistry they had towards the end of the season and in the play offs wasn't just a fluke they might actually threaten to put a few points up. The fourth line is all based on potential. O'Reilly showed signed of actually living up to his potential last season before breaking his leg. Wilson just finished his first real season bouncing around on lines, playing fourth line minutes at times, and being benched for shifts. Even with that happening he put up 34 points at 21 years old. That's just a few points behind Henrik Sedin and Jeff Carter (though Carter only played 62 games) at the same age, and just a few points more than Zach Parise and Daniel Sedin at the same age. That doesn't mean he will turn into any of those guys, but it isn't yet time to give up hope on his development.

For our offense to take big strides with the players we have right now it will take some luck, sure, but is it a bigger stretch to think that this line up can at least carry us as far as it did last year, or is it a bigger stretch to think this line up will plummet five spots in the standings?
I don't find any consistantcy in our lineup except the big 3 and the checking line . Legwand and Erat have been the model of inconsistantcy offensively. Plus they didn't play the full season together and played their best when paired with Ward. Is Sk the player in the regular season or the one didn't score any goals in the playoffs and now that he is considered our leading scorer teams will defend him differently now. Hornqvist is he a 20 goal scorer or a 30 goal scorer. Fisher is he the player who was a bust when we traded for him or the players who played great in the playoffs and was injured for most of this..granted he will be a whole lot better with a full season. O'Reilly got off to a good start but fell off dramatically before he broke his leg. Wilson scored 16 goals and then was banished to the doghouse will he be granted top 6 line time and will Bergfors be the sk this year. Who will be the 4th line players and how much will they contribute. Plus if the big 3 have down years then where will we be. Now we all hope none of this happens of course but everything isn't going to go according to plan not even considering injuries but a trade could solve all of these problems. But right now our scoring is questionable at best. Not counting on our defensive pairing but if Trotz can solve one thing it's our defense. It will be more of the same as last year just play it out and hope for the trade. I don't think we can wait until the deadline to make a move. Preferrably before the season is too far along

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08-23-2011, 03:59 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I can't remember if it was you or someone else, or even if it was on HF or the main boards, but someone brought up the very limited number of 30 goal scorers in the league. 29 last year to be exact. Not enough to have one per team, and 7 those have only hit 30 or more goals once (Stafford, Skinner [rookie], Kulemin, Couture [rookie], Grabner, Lucic, Kesler). Anaheim had three of those players. Tampa had two. Toronto had two. Vancouver had two. San Jose had two. Philly had two, one of which was traded. Chicago had two. Etc.

All of the thirty goal scorers from last year were spread out over 17 teams. One of them was traded, but to a team which already had a 30 goal scorer (Carter traded to Columbus who had Nash). That leaves you with 13 teams who don't have, and would probably like to have, a 30+ goal scorer. 8 of the 17 teams with at least one only have one, so trading for that player is very unlikely.

In 2009-2010 there were only 24 players with 30 or more goals, and one of them played for us. In 2008-2009 there were 39. 28 in 2007-2008. It really is a tough asset to get, and it gets even tougher when you exclude the untouchables (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Perry, Skinner, Couture, Zetterberg, Sedins, Stamkos, Kesler).

Honestly, looking at it, it seems like AK is the only realistic option right now.
A similar evaluation could probably be done about the number of #1 defensemen in the league. Y'all have two; we have none.

I say we take our offense and your blueline and goaltending and we start a Cup dynasty.

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08-23-2011, 04:51 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
A similar evaluation could probably be done about the number of #1 defensemen in the league. Y'all have two; we have none.

I say we take our offense and your blueline and goaltending and we start a Cup dynasty.
It does get tricky if you want to look at the amount of #1 defensemen in the league since that term is subjective. I'll see what I can do.

And yes... all we need now is to find a way to keep it cap compliant. Without looking at cap hit:

SK - Carter - Nash
Erat - Fisher - Vermette
Umberger - Legwand - Hornqvist
Spaling - Smithson - Tootoo (sorry, but I'm keeping our shutdown line)

Weber - Suter
Wiskneiwski - Klein
Blum - ?

Rinne
Mason

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08-23-2011, 05:51 PM
  #213
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There's a lot of talk about Poile needing to do "something." "Something" is dangerous ... "something" is Vacicek ... "something" is V2 ... "something" is making a move just for the sake of making the move and the latest rumblings are that the more expensive and flashy, the better.

We need a legit top line winger who at least knows that there is such a thing as playing defense even if they aren't great at it. They have to put forth some effort. They also can't cost more than about $4-5mil or so if we're going to lock up the big three and keep most of the rest of the top six. There is the right move out there somewhere. I haven't figured out who it is or what we give up to get them ... but that move is out there. Doing "something" could very well make doing the right thing impossible.

Arm chair GM is easy ... but notice how few of us have gotten a call from a team with a job offer to do it for real.
So if Poile put a loosing team on the ice because we haven't gotten the call that doesn't make us qualified to make any comment on how the team is or going to be or how it's run? ...so you have gotten the call? right?

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08-23-2011, 06:16 PM
  #214
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So if Poile put a loosing team on the ice because we haven't gotten the call that doesn't make us qualified to make any comment on how the team is or going to be or how it's run? ...so you have gotten the call? right?
What he meant is none of us have gotten a call with a GM job offer, not that none of us have gotten a call about a trade. I don't know why this idea lingers that Poile sits at his desk staring at his phone waiting for it to ring, but it's pretty silly to think a guy who has been widely regarded as one of the best GMs in the league is that incompetent.

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08-23-2011, 07:38 PM
  #215
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Amazing how quickly the defense of the Lombardi trade went from "Poile made the move to bring in more offense" to "Poile made the move to resign Weber".

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08-23-2011, 08:40 PM
  #216
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Amazing how quickly the defense of the Lombardi trade went from "Poile made the move to bring in more offense" to "Poile made the move to resign Weber".
Who is actually saying this?

The money to re-sign Weber was there before the Lombardi trade went down...

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08-23-2011, 09:22 PM
  #217
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Just like the money for offense is still there after accepting the one-year deal.

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08-23-2011, 10:43 PM
  #218
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It does get tricky if you want to look at the amount of #1 defensemen in the league since that term is subjective. I'll see what I can do.

And yes... all we need now is to find a way to keep it cap compliant. Without looking at cap hit:

SK - Carter - Nash
Erat - Fisher - Vermette
Umberger - Legwand - Hornqvist
Spaling - Smithson - Tootoo (sorry, but I'm keeping our shutdown line)

Weber - Suter
Wiskneiwski - Klein
Blum - ?

Rinne
Mason
Heh. My most recent attempt at a cap-compliant Nashlumbus Pred Jackets:
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Nashlumbus Pred Jackets redux - Cap Compliant Edition.
I didn't combine buyouts 'cause they're so close together to eachother anyways (Dumont and Commodore have almost exactly the same, and Lebda and Westcott are within $100k of eachother).



CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Martin Erat ($4.500m)
Sergei Kostitsyn ($2.500m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / R.J. Umberger ($3.750m)
Matt Calvert ($0.891m) / Antoine Vermette ($3.750m) / Blake Geoffrion ($1.062m)
Colin Wilson ($1.725m) / Derek MacKenzie ($0.600m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.250m)
Jared Boll ($0.725m) / Jerred Smithson ($0.800m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($3.500m) / Shea Weber ($7.500m)
Fedor Tyutin ($2.843m) / Jonathon Blum ($0.941m)
Kevin Klein ($1.350m) / Grant Clitsome ($1.250m)
Radek Martinek ($2.200m)

GOALTENDERS
Pekka Rinne ($3.400m) / Mark Dekanich ($0.575m)

BUYOUTS: J.P. Dumont ($1.333m) / Brett Lebda ($0.516m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,237,311; BONUSES: $1,350,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,062,689


Team player breakdown:
Forwards: 8 CBJ, 6 NSH
Defense: 4 NSH, 3 CBJ
Goaltending: 1 of each in the loosest technical sense.

I could have saved another $2m or so by swapping Prospal in on the first line, but I like the idea of a Nash-Carter-Erat line too much. Similarly, I could have had Wisniewski as Suter's cannon man, but breaking up Weber-Suter is a felony in six provinces, thirty-eight states, and the District of Columbia. (Besides, we all know the real objective is to put CBJ's two star forwards with NSH's two star defensemen, not watch the world implode when Jared Boll attempts to defend Jordin Tootoo. )
There's also a money-is-no-object version at http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...1&postcount=39

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08-23-2011, 11:27 PM
  #219
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Heh. My most recent attempt at a cap-compliant Nashlumbus Pred Jackets:


There's also a money-is-no-object version at http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...1&postcount=39
Either way the large teenager contingent of HF posters would have Nashumbus just out of the play offs and behind Chicago and Detroit in the Central.

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08-24-2011, 09:33 AM
  #220
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Who is actually saying this?

The money to re-sign Weber was there before the Lombardi trade went down...
Plenty of people have defended the Lombardi/Franson that way.

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08-24-2011, 09:35 AM
  #221
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So, everyone realizes that if the powerplay would just not completely suck this year the team will jump 5-10 spots in the offensive rankings, right? 5-on-5 they were a very decent scoring team last year. It was just the horrific powerplay that kept them buried in the total offense category.

They don't need a 100-point player or 40-goal scorer brought in. They just need a more effective powerplay strategy. Figure out a way to get up to a middle-of-the-road powerplay percentage and watch everyone scratching their heads over how improved the offense is this year.
The players are the reason for the PP woes.

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08-24-2011, 12:25 PM
  #222
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Plenty of people have defended the Lombardi/Franson that way.
The money to sign Weber was there all along. Notice how we have him locked up for the season, but still have enough room to make another move. We can get back into the whole trade again, but since it's been beaten to death I doubt it goes anywhere new.

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08-24-2011, 12:52 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
The money to sign Weber was there all along. Notice how we have him locked up for the season, but still have enough room to make another move. We can get back into the whole trade again, but since it's been beaten to death I doubt it goes anywhere new.
I agree, but I just find it amusing how quickly it went from trading Lombardi/Franson was to get a forward and after no forward came, the argument went in the direction of that money going towards Weber. Not saying you said that

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08-24-2011, 01:27 PM
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Seth Lake
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
I agree, but I just find it amusing how quickly it went from trading Lombardi/Franson was to get a forward and after no forward came, the argument went in the direction of that money going towards Weber. Not saying you said that
And those that have said it have been way off-base. The money's still there to add a piece or pieces when the time is right. That money hasn't been spent yet, but is scheduled for the roster...

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08-24-2011, 02:22 PM
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Roman Yoshi
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And those that have said it have been way off-base. The money's still there to add a piece or pieces when the time is right. That money hasn't been spent yet, but is scheduled for the roster...

When is the time right though? When Cal O'Reilly inevitably goes down with an injury? Or when we are so behind in the standings that we have to make a desperate move? Or if we wait for the start of the season we run the risk of having damaged goods like mike fisher coming our way. Give the addition time to bond with the team. Prices are only going to be higher as we reach the deadline not to mention we maybe too far behind in the standings to matter at that point if spaling is a top six forward.


Last edited by Roman Yoshi: 08-24-2011 at 02:35 PM.
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