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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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Old
08-24-2011, 04:04 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
So what's the problem to ask the Habs to get that type of players to play on our own 4th line ?

Never forget that the Bruins havle ALSO Lucic, Horton, Chara, Boychuck and McQuaid + buggers like Ference and Marchand
10$ you dont see the difference between those three and a 4th line goon.

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08-24-2011, 04:10 PM
  #102
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yet a team like Piitsburgh was able to fill their line-up with the likes of Godard, Asham, Engelland and Rupp all at once. Was it killing their skills? No it wasn't...
There are so many things wrong with this statement. Firstly, the only one of those guys that was on the cup winning team was Godard, and he hasn't played a single NHL playoff game in his career. Rupp doesn't belong in that category either, because he's a decent third liner who can contribute something of value to his team. See last years playoffs.

You also can't compare us to the Penguins because they have two of the best players in the world on their team. Even then, did the presence of Godard, Engelland, Rupp and the mighty Aaron Asham keep Crosby from going down with a concussion? A concussion he's still struggling with?

There were no goons on the Stanley Cup winning Penguins team. That's a fact. What they did have were guys who can get their nose dirty and don't mind playing with an edge (Talbot, Kunitz, Cooke) while actually contributing defensively or offensively.

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Why can't we enjoy the show just like everybody else? Why are we the only team in the league thar excepts getting beat up and verbally threatened without consequences?
This is a myth. How intimidated was Aaron Rome by Shawn Thornton's trash talk and threats of violence? Clearly not enough, because he went out the next shift and gave their best offensive player a concussion.

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A fighter brings entertainment, protection and even sometimes motivation to a line-up that badly needs it. Getting a Chris Niel, a Shawn Thornton or even a Colton Orr will not be the cause of why Cammalleri doesn't score 40 goals or that Price has a 900 sv% average, get over yourselves.
A fighter bring entertainment, but a fighter doesn't bring protection. Like I said earlier, how did that work out for the Penguins this year? We still don't know how that's gonna work out for them. How many concussions because of cheap shots have the big bad Bruins had post lockout? The answer is more than the Habs.

I want to get a tougher team too. But not because of the myth that it prevents injury. Colton Orr would be a liability and there's no place for him on the team. Get me a player like Thornton or Neil in his prime and I'll jump for joy because they can actually play hockey while adding a physical edge.

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08-24-2011, 04:22 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
So what's the problem to ask the Habs to get that type of players to play on our own 4th line ?

Never forget that the Bruins havle ALSO Lucic, Horton, Chara, Boychuck and McQuaid + buggers like Ference and Marchand
No real problem, but the gap between Campbell and Thorton for that 4th line role compared to Moen and White isn't all that big in the grand scheme of things. Especially since Montreal's forechecking game plan is to look more to intercept the puck when the other team is attempting to start their transition rather than to run a more aggressive system which affords more opportunity to lay checks on the opposition.

The counter-punch style Montreal used worked very well in terms of controlling the play and puck possession at even strength last season and suits the lineup composition so changing it up would probably be less effective even some people find aggressive hockey more aesthetically pleasing (or it seems, more ideologically correct).

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08-24-2011, 04:55 PM
  #104
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For all those that claim it's difficult to find modern Fergusons & Nilans, you really don't get it.

It's difficult only for teams that are not looking for that sort of player. Why is it not difficult for the Bruins, the Ducks & the Flyers to get that kind of player? Every year they seem to have two or three that can play that game. Dammit the Bruins have Thornton, McQuaid, Lucic, Campbell, Boychek & Chara. That's six players and the you're telling me the Habs can't get one! And I'm not talking about fighters. I'm talking about pain in the a$$ players.

If a team is not primed to look for such a player, they won't find him and if they do find him by accident they would not know how to develop him. That's another thing. You need to get the player and you need to train the player to play that game.

Many of you guys called Pouliot a soft player. I want to see what the BRuins do with him this year. If He turns his game around and plays Bruins hockey - hard nosed, physical, gritty hockey - then that tells me the hardnosed physical hockey player is not hard to find if you know how to develop him.

The Habs are not alone. There are many teams that do not look for and don't know how to develop that sort of player.

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08-24-2011, 05:01 PM
  #105
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But Boston has it...

Boston!

BOSTON!!!!!

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08-24-2011, 05:02 PM
  #106
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Red Wings, Pens,Caps, SJ and Vancouver are all considered upper echelon teams, and do not play the way the Bruins or Flyers do, but yet are still successful...so maybe we are not that far off???

Besides, nothing says there can't be a trade during the season if needed...

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08-24-2011, 05:25 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
For all those that claim it's difficult to find modern Fergusons & Nilans, you really don't get it.

It's difficult only for teams that are not looking for that sort of player. Why is it not difficult for the Bruins, the Ducks & the Flyers to get that kind of player? Every year they seem to have two or three that can play that game. Dammit the Bruins have Thornton, McQuaid, Lucic, Campbell, Boychek & Chara. That's six players and the you're telling me the Habs can't get one! And I'm not talking about fighters. I'm talking about pain in the a$$ players.

If a team is not primed to look for such a player, they won't find him and if they do find him by accident they would not know how to develop him. That's another thing. You need to get the player and you need to train the player to play that game.

Many of you guys called Pouliot a soft player. I want to see what the BRuins do with him this year. If He turns his game around and plays Bruins hockey - hard nosed, physical, gritty hockey - then that tells me the hardnosed physical hockey player is not hard to find if you know how to develop him.

The Habs are not alone. There are many teams that do not look for and don't know how to develop that sort of player.
But is it worth the institutional effort to find those guys? How much does having them over an player with equivalent "hockey talent" really make their team better. That's a hypothesis that many people seem to hold with scant evidence to back it up, which is why it seems to be more of an ideological point rather than something that demonstrably matters. For an example from other sports, the hit and run play was a widespread tactic in professional baseball before people examined it and found it to be actually counter-productive to scoring runs. Just because people believe something helps doesn't mean it actually does.

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08-24-2011, 05:43 PM
  #108
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I don't care what anybody says. The current management have no back bone. They allowed their team to be BULLIED all last year and have done nothing so far this off season to address it. The bullying will only get worse. Gainey's Laraque signing not only failed but ruined the team from acquiring another enforcer.
I really hate to see MTL lose especially hate seeing Price lose BUT the only way to get rid of Gauthier and Martin is for MTL to lose. Gainey left his flunkies in charge and now it looked like in the playoffs last year Gainey is back.

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08-24-2011, 05:46 PM
  #109
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"I don't agree with the current philosophy!...I hope they lose!"


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08-24-2011, 05:55 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
For all those that claim it's difficult to find modern Fergusons & Nilans, you really don't get it.

It's difficult only for teams that are not looking for that sort of player. Why is it not difficult for the Bruins, the Ducks & the Flyers to get that kind of player? Every year they seem to have two or three that can play that game. Dammit the Bruins have Thornton, McQuaid, Lucic, Campbell, Boychek & Chara. That's six players and the you're telling me the Habs can't get one! And I'm not talking about fighters. I'm talking about pain in the a$$ players.

If a team is not primed to look for such a player, they won't find him and if they do find him by accident they would not know how to develop him. That's another thing. You need to get the player and you need to train the player to play that game.

Many of you guys called Pouliot a soft player. I want to see what the BRuins do with him this year. If He turns his game around and plays Bruins hockey - hard nosed, physical, gritty hockey - then that tells me the hardnosed physical hockey player is not hard to find if you know how to develop him.

The Habs are not alone. There are many teams that do not look for and don't know how to develop that sort of player.
we dont get it cause you put guys like Campbell, Ference, Boychuck or McQuade in the same category as Nilan and Ferguson...

reality is, while Ferguson was a tough SOB he was also a 50 pts player - something that wond be achieved by all the players I named -> combined...

and while Nilan was no Gretzky or Lemieux he was good enough to play on the best shutdown line of his era while being the (one of) best fighters in the league - wich is, AGAIN, something none of the players I named (taken from your list) will be capable of... In fact, most of those players dont have enough skills to do one of the two (shutdown or fight like the best)...

so yeah we dont get it, we'll probably get it once we start doing like you and "downgrade" Ferguson or Nilan to older version of Campbell or Thornton...

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08-24-2011, 06:23 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we dont get it cause you put guys like Campbell, Ference, Boychuck or McQuade in the same category as Nilan and Ferguson...

reality is, while Ferguson was a tough SOB he was also a 50 pts player - something that wond be achieved by all the players I named -> combined...

and while Nilan was no Gretzky or Lemieux he was good enough to play on the best shutdown line of his era while being the (one of) best fighters in the league - wich is, AGAIN, something none of the players I named (taken from your list) will be capable of... In fact, most of those players dont have enough skills to do one of the two (shutdown or fight like the best)...

so yeah we dont get it, we'll probably get it once we start doing like you and "downgrade" Ferguson or Nilan to older version of Campbell or Thornton...
If you say you're doing something, do it! Don't pretend you're doing it. I never mentioned Ference but I did mention Lucic & Chara. I guess you just forgot about them and they're heads & shoulders better than Nilan. And Thornton is pretty comparable to Nilan.

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08-24-2011, 06:42 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
If you say you're doing something, do it! Don't pretend you're doing it. I never mentioned Ference but I did mention Lucic & Chara. I guess you just forgot about them and they're heads & shoulders better than Nilan. And Thornton is pretty comparable to Nilan.
Didnt, just though that putting a Norris winner and a 60+ pts 1st liner in the same category as Campbell, Boychuck and the others you named mada no sense at all... in fact, it's pretty much an insult to both Chara and Lucic...


how ? he's not one of the best fighters in the league, and he's not good enough to be on the ice for defensive assignments...

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08-24-2011, 06:56 PM
  #113
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There are so many things wrong with this statement. Firstly, the only one of those guys that was on the cup winning team was Godard, and he hasn't played a single NHL playoff game in his career. Rupp doesn't belong in that category either, because he's a decent third liner who can contribute something of value to his team. See last years playoffs.

You also can't compare us to the Penguins because they have two of the best players in the world on their team. Even then, did the presence of Godard, Engelland, Rupp and the mighty Aaron Asham keep Crosby from going down with a concussion? A concussion he's still struggling with?

There were no goons on the Stanley Cup winning Penguins team. That's a fact. What they did have were guys who can get their nose dirty and don't mind playing with an edge (Talbot, Kunitz, Cooke) while actually contributing defensively or offensively.



This is a myth. How intimidated was Aaron Rome by Shawn Thornton's trash talk and threats of violence? Clearly not enough, because he went out the next shift and gave their best offensive player a concussion.



A fighter bring entertainment, but a fighter doesn't bring protection. Like I said earlier, how did that work out for the Penguins this year? We still don't know how that's gonna work out for them. How many concussions because of cheap shots have the big bad Bruins had post lockout? The answer is more than the Habs.

I want to get a tougher team too. But not because of the myth that it prevents injury. Colton Orr would be a liability and there's no place for him on the team. Get me a player like Thornton or Neil in his prime and I'll jump for joy because they can actually play hockey while adding a physical edge.
Actually I'd argue playing that style is what got them more injuries in the first place. Tougher on the body and makes other teams at times play your game, which is a double edged sword.

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08-24-2011, 07:33 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
AGAIN, something none of the players I named (taken from your list) will be capable of... In fact, most of those players dont have enough skills to do one of the two (shutdown or fight like the best)...

so yeah we dont get it, we'll probably get it once we start doing like you and "downgrade" Ferguson or Nilan to older version of Campbell or Thornton...
I agree with most, but Campbell is a solid shutdown guy along with Paille.

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08-24-2011, 07:47 PM
  #115
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I agree with most, but Campbell is a solid shutdown guy along with Paille.
He's not exactly a deterrent out there. I'm confused, do people want big guys who "scare" other teams from touching our players, or do they want Gregory Campbell?

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08-24-2011, 07:58 PM
  #116
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He's not exactly a deterrent out there. I'm confused, do people want big guys who "scare" other teams from touching our players, or do they want Gregory Campbell?
If the question is directed at me, my only qualm is that he said Campbell doesn't have the skills to shutdown others.. which he does. As for the toughness thing, it's been said before, but what I want is not a name that most fighters fear and not a dud who does nothing but fight. I want a player who will stand up for his teammates. I want a player to do like Nilan used to tell the opposing team "you rough up the kids, I'll snap your neck" or something like that

I don't wanna see Eller, Patch, DD and so on getting bullied into fighting when that's not what they do at all. Subban to an extent, but since he talks ****, he stands up for himself every now and then and that's fine.

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08-24-2011, 08:36 PM
  #117
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I wouldn't have made toughness a priority per se. But at the same time, I think we've had a lengthy stretch of off-season with an opening up front and on D, and I've thought players like Winchester and O'Brien (before he signed) would have been decent candidates to slot into those openings. I have no idea if management looked at them or thought of them or not; maybe they did but the players just didn't want to sign with us. Who knows.

If the team picked out other solid choices for those depth openings instead of the tougher options, I'd be pretty content. The toughness isn't the most important thing. Just having quality depth is. Toughness is kind of a minor bonus on top. So far we've got Woywitka in the D slot, and nobody up front (default assumption until proven otherwise, therefore, is that we're letting young players battle in camp for that spot).

I'm thinking I'd rather have had Winchester and O'Brien than, say, Blunden or Engqvist and Woywitka. Relatively minor concern, but hey, that's what we're down to. The rest of the summer must have gone pretty well if that's what's left.
Woywitka is on a 2way contract, can't compare this with O'brien, he is there as a safety net only. It seems cleer that the Habs brass are pretty heigh on Yemelin and that they thing he can be part of this team, this year. So at the end of the day your comparison should be O'Brien or Yemelin.... I would opt for Yemelin but time will tell.

Toughness is often mistaken with Grit, which few years back we had none anywhere on the top 6/9 (except for Latendresse and Lapierre who where very inconsistant and did not manage to secure an important spot in that top 9. Look at the roster now: Cole, Pacioretty, Eller are bringing Grit, they are not guys that will figth or Crush the oponents through the boards, but they are tough to play against in the corners, they hit to take position on the puck, they compete and they rarely go out without the puck, while also having some of the same qualities this team is chearing (talent and speed).

Is there place for improvement... sure but the team is going in the right direction. The same could be said on D with Subban and Yemelin (hoping his game translate to the NHL). And once they join the team few season down the road Tinordi and Beaulieu.

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08-24-2011, 08:43 PM
  #118
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Dude, whatdya call Markov?

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08-24-2011, 09:13 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
If the question is directed at me, my only qualm is that he said Campbell doesn't have the skills to shutdown others.. which he does. As for the toughness thing, it's been said before, but what I want is not a name that most fighters fear and not a dud who does nothing but fight. I want a player who will stand up for his teammates. I want a player to do like Nilan used to tell the opposing team "you rough up the kids, I'll snap your neck" or something like that

I don't wanna see Eller, Patch, DD and so on getting bullied into fighting when that's not what they do at all. Subban to an extent, but since he talks ****, he stands up for himself every now and then and that's fine.
It wasn't exactly directed at you, but the people who seemingly have no idea what they want, but use the "toughness" angle to bash management because it's our weakest aspect.

They need to stop using Lucic and Chara as examples as if every other team in the league has anyone like these two.

I'd take more guys with the tenacity and willingness to hit/skate hard like Clutterbuck, or Tootoo over a designated tough guy. I wish Moen were younger/faster, and I wish White was better defensively, but I think the only real useful guys we can add to this team would have to be made through trades.

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08-24-2011, 11:07 PM
  #120
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I agree with most, but Campbell is a solid shutdown guy along with Paille.
Yup, he's fine (no more, no less) but he's average at best in the physicality department.

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08-25-2011, 08:12 AM
  #121
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It's bostin's d core that makes the reputation that they're slow, but even then, let's say your right, they're still more skilled then we are and having Shawn Thornton and Greg Campbell on that team does not make them score less goals then us. It makes the rest of the team the ability to play their game, whatever it is.

Oh, and a big fat at mathman's post, fights have been part of hockey longer then both our lives put together, if you don't like it then go watch the KHL or curling.
I agree, I don't know why we insist we have the winning recipe, it sure hasn't worked. I would be all for adding a tough guy or two to play the 4th line.

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08-25-2011, 08:30 AM
  #122
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10$ you dont see the difference between those three and a 4th line goon.
You want to have the last word, eh ?

But you just don't get it.

On top of having a very good effective gritty 4th line, the Bruins have all these other guys who can hit, drop the gloves, etc... At least 10 Bruins players can play rough and tumble style when "required".

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08-25-2011, 09:35 AM
  #123
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10$ you dont see the difference between those three and a 4th line goon.
you owe me 10$ cause I never saw a goon get 30 goals

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08-25-2011, 10:01 AM
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I'm curious, is Tootoo considered a heavy weight? Has he fought heavy weights, how did he do? We'd never land him now that he's shown flashes of production in the point columns now that he's sober.

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08-25-2011, 10:04 AM
  #125
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Well lets judge here



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