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Old
08-24-2011, 04:10 PM
  #51
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When the Playoffs come around, bryz will have everyone in the stadium calm when compared to last year.

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08-24-2011, 04:19 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Fair enough.

Btw, I think we're in the same boat with regards to the goalie situation for us anyway. While happy that we finally have not only a legitimate starter, but one who is easily in the top half of starters as well, we kind of would have preferred Vokoun.

I'm of the belief that Vokoun is a better goalie than Bryzgalov right now and I also think that Bobrovsky could become a really good goalie in a couple of years, so for me the choice would have been easy which goalie to go after this summer. Homer went with Bryzgalov however and I hope we'll be happy with that for the next nine years.
Yeah, we definitely agree on all points there.

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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
When the Playoffs come around, bryz will have everyone in the stadium calm when compared to last year.
That's a fact. It's the rest of the team I'm worried about in that case.

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08-24-2011, 04:21 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
When the Playoffs come around, bryz will have everyone in the stadium calm when compared to last year.
Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish really.

Hopefully he'll have better success than his recent playoff rounds though.

That is hopefully where the difference between next year and the past few years will be most noticeable, having that goalie that the players really trust can work miracles for some teams. When the games and the atmosphere around them gets really intense in the playoffs that trust can be really, really important.

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08-24-2011, 04:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish really.

Hopefully he'll have better success than his recent playoff rounds though.

That is hopefully where the difference between next year and the past few years will be most noticeable, having that goalie that the players really trust can work miracles for some teams. When the games and the atmosphere around them gets really intense in the playoffs that trust can be really, really important.

Exactly. There is no statistic which encompasses trust; a purely emotional intangible.

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08-24-2011, 05:12 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Exactly. There is no statistic which encompasses trust; a purely emotional intangible.
It's called performance... and we have a lot of stats for that. The assumption that "intangibles" don't manifest in empirical data when properly analyzed is one of the worst mistakes people make when they start blabbering about how stats don't capture everything.

That's how we end up with the idiocy that is "clutch".

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08-24-2011, 06:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's called performance... and we have a lot of stats for that. The assumption that "intangibles" don't manifest in empirical data when properly analyzed is one of the worst mistakes people make when they start blabbering about how stats don't capture everything.

That's how we end up with the idiocy that is "clutch".
ahhh the absolutist...

indicate intangible? sure.

represent them? sometimes.

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08-24-2011, 06:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
ahhh the absolutist...

indicate intangible? sure.

represent them? sometimes.
How many goals does trust put on the scoreboard? How many goals does trust keep off the scoreboard?

If you actually care about, ya know, winning... trust is worthless.

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08-24-2011, 06:37 PM
  #58
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How many goals does trust put on the scoreboard? How many goals does trust keep off the scoreboard?

If you actually care about, ya know, winning... trust is worthless.
the un-quantifiable can have quantified results. But tracking these results doesnt reveal the un-quantifiable.

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08-24-2011, 06:41 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
the un-quantifiable can have quantified results. But tracking these results doesnt reveal the un-quantifiable.
Sure it does. Your claim is that who is playing goal equates to more trust by the team, which, in turn, translates to better performance. That's a hypothesis without proof.

So, run splits and see how the team performs in front of goalie X as opposed to goalie Y. Since, ya know, trust in goalie X as opposed to goalie Y is the causative factor in your theory.

If the un-quantifiable doesn't result in quantified results in a sport based on quantified results, then it's worth about as much as the turd I dropped off a couple hours ago.

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08-24-2011, 06:52 PM
  #60
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How many goals does trust put on the scoreboard? How many goals does trust keep off the scoreboard?

If you actually care about, ya know, winning... trust is worthless.
I'm slightly drunk, so this might not make much sense, but bare with me...

I don't think you can go that far. Having a goalie that you trust will make the necessary saves are crucial for a defender. It also changes the way you yourself handles different situations. With a good goalie behind you, you might feel confident that if you simply force the opponent to take as bad of a shot as possible, your goalie will handle it. With less confidence in your own goalie you might end up running all over the place overdoing things to keep the opponents from getting a shot at goal.

These are drastic examples I know, but having had a few goalies behind me that I didn't have any faith in, I know how bad that can be. In 2-1 situations you don't do as you should but instead you try to take away the passing lane and block the shot at the same time somehow. Sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't.

I guess the point of the ramblings (and it was a lot longer, but I shortened it a bit so it would at least be slightly readable), is that if having Bryzgalov in net gives our d's the belief that they don't have to throw themselves down and block every other shot, and allowing them to go with the safe route and simply force the opponent to take as bad a shot as possible, that would lead to Bryzgalov's svpt to get better because he would face more "easy" shots.

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08-24-2011, 06:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Sure it does. Your claim is that who is playing goal equates to more trust by the team, which, in turn, translates to better performance. That's a hypothesis without proof.

So, run splits and see how the team performs in front of goalie X as opposed to goalie Y. Since, ya know, trust in goalie X as opposed to goalie Y is the causative factor in your theory.

If the un-quantifiable doesn't result in quantified results in a sport based on quantified results, then it's worth about as much as the turd I dropped off a couple hours ago.
if the flyers could play the flyers, with bryz in net vs bob in net in a playoff atmosphere,

out of 10 games, bryz would win 7-9

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08-24-2011, 07:16 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I'm slightly drunk, so this might not make much sense, but bare with me...

I don't think you can go that far. Having a goalie that you trust will make the necessary saves are crucial for a defender. It also changes the way you yourself handles different situations. With a good goalie behind you, you might feel confident that if you simply force the opponent to take as bad of a shot as possible, your goalie will handle it. With less confidence in your own goalie you might end up running all over the place overdoing things to keep the opponents from getting a shot at goal.

These are drastic examples I know, but having had a few goalies behind me that I didn't have any faith in, I know how bad that can be. In 2-1 situations you don't do as you should but instead you try to take away the passing lane and block the shot at the same time somehow. Sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't.

I guess the point of the ramblings (and it was a lot longer, but I shortened it a bit so it would at least be slightly readable), is that if having Bryzgalov in net gives our d's the belief that they don't have to throw themselves down and block every other shot, and allowing them to go with the safe route and simply force the opponent to take as bad a shot as possible, that would lead to Bryzgalov's svpt to get better because he would face more "easy" shots.
What I said completely went over your head.

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08-24-2011, 07:27 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
if the flyers could play the flyers, with bryz in net vs bob in net in a playoff atmosphere,

out of 10 games, bryz would win 7-9
Cuz Bryz has been great in playoff atmosphere?

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08-24-2011, 07:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What I said completely went over your head.
That is entirely possible, probably even plausible.

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08-24-2011, 07:35 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I wouldn't lump Read into the "defensively serviceable" column. He hasn't even made the NHL team yet.
OH I WENT THERE!

In all seriousness, that IS part of Read's style of play is strong defensive play. Personally I expect him to crack the roster this year. If he doesn't then this whole point is moot. For him to make the team this year, he'll have to be a strong 2-way player.

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08-24-2011, 07:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Cuz Bryz has been great in playoff atmosphere?
you are totally right.

Bobrovsky is the MVP of playoffs.



if you watch the games, you will realize bryz's stats did not reflect his play this post season.

good example, thanks for that.

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08-24-2011, 07:38 PM
  #67
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you are totally right.

Bobrovsky is the MVP of playoffs.



if you watch the games, you will realize bryz's stats did not reflect his play this post season.

good example, thanks for that.
I watched that series. He was terrible. He also may have quit on his team at points.

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08-24-2011, 07:38 PM
  #68
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you are totally right.

Bobrovsky is the MVP of playoffs.



if you watch the games, you will realize bryz's stats did not reflect his play this post season.

good example, thanks for that.
Bryzgalov didn't get much help from his defense this year against Detroit, but he was pretty far from doing a stellar job himself in those games.

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08-24-2011, 07:39 PM
  #69
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Yeah, while PHX probably would have lost that series regardless, he let in quite a few bad goals.

edit: hmm. I must type slow.

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08-24-2011, 07:40 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
That is entirely possible, probably even plausible.
I'm not disputing that trust and other intangibles, I'm disputing that they dont manifest in stats.

And, more importantly, if they don't then they don't actually matter.

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08-24-2011, 07:44 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
OH I WENT THERE!

In all seriousness, that IS part of Read's style of play is strong defensive play. Personally I expect him to crack the roster this year. If he doesn't then this whole point is moot. For him to make the team this year, he'll have to be a strong 2-way player.
haha, fair enough. I've decided to not buy into any of the Read or Akeson hype until I see them actually make it to the NHL.

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08-24-2011, 07:46 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm not disputing that trust and other intangibles, I'm disputing that they dont manifest in stats.

And, more importantly, if they don't then they don't actually matter.
the only stat that encompasses everything is a W or a L,
even then an argument could be made that it does not (because of the sample size)

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08-24-2011, 07:49 PM
  #73
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haha, fair enough. I've decided to not buy into any of the Read or Akeson hype until I see them actually make it to the NHL.
god im pulling for akeson...

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08-24-2011, 07:52 PM
  #74
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the only stat that encompasses everything is a W or a L,
even then an argument could be made that it does not (because of the sample size)
Uh, W/L actually leaves basically everything out. If you go only by those stats, then Vokoun is a bad goalie when he actually isn't.

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08-24-2011, 07:59 PM
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Uh, W/L actually leaves basically everything out. If you go only by those stats, then Vokoun is a bad goalie when he actually isn't.
it encompasses the entire team though. Sorry if that was unclear.

While two goalies have the same sv % one can actually be better. That means their team can play more agressively (confident) and actually produce more offense.

W/L encompasses that, the other stats dont.


If you had two identical teams (other than the goalie) W/L would be the all encompassing stat, thats what i was trying to say.

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