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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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Old
08-25-2011, 09:11 AM
  #126
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08-25-2011, 09:17 AM
  #127
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Tottoo is Chris Neil lite, with alot more energy, and exactly the type of player the Habs need...

Drop the puck already, man this has been a long offseason...

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08-25-2011, 09:19 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
There are so many things wrong with this statement. Firstly, the only one of those guys that was on the cup winning team was Godard, and he hasn't played a single NHL playoff game in his career. Rupp doesn't belong in that category either, because he's a decent third liner who can contribute something of value to his team. See last years playoffs.

You also can't compare us to the Penguins because they have two of the best players in the world on their team. Even then, did the presence of Godard, Engelland, Rupp and the mighty Aaron Asham keep Crosby from going down with a concussion? A concussion he's still struggling with?

There were no goons on the Stanley Cup winning Penguins team. That's a fact. What they did have were guys who can get their nose dirty and don't mind playing with an edge (Talbot, Kunitz, Cooke) while actually contributing defensively or offensively.



This is a myth. How intimidated was Aaron Rome by Shawn Thornton's trash talk and threats of violence? Clearly not enough, because he went out the next shift and gave their best offensive player a concussion.



A fighter bring entertainment, but a fighter doesn't bring protection. Like I said earlier, how did that work out for the Penguins this year? We still don't know how that's gonna work out for them. How many concussions because of cheap shots have the big bad Bruins had post lockout? The answer is more than the Habs.

I want to get a tougher team too. But not because of the myth that it prevents injury. Colton Orr would be a liability and there's no place for him on the team. Get me a player like Thornton or Neil in his prime and I'll jump for joy because they can actually play hockey while adding a physical edge.
You're just another of those '' I don't understand what a goon actually does, so I guess they have to be useless? type of guys''

#1: Do not mix regular season with playoffs!!!! Mindset is different, goals are different, having a penalty in 100x times worse in the playoffs and all 10 guys give their 100% every shift. It's 2 different seasons and 2 different ways of approaching the game, now of course, for x and y lovers on this board, they have no idea of what I'm talking about.

#2: Fighters do prevent injuries. They don't stop every injury because their job isn't to stop the other team of playing the game of hockey. It's to keep things honest out there, that players don't aim knees or heads or whatever, that after the whistle they don't start threatening teammates or slash whoever they please, I CLEARLY saw on more then one occasion players go back to the bench with their head between their legs in a sign of disbelief, asking themselves what the hell they were gonna do when the going got tough, something that never happened when the hated Laraque played for the Habs, hell even Markov looked meaner on the ice then Lucic and Niel when we had somebody that was watching them.

#3 GM's are still signing fighters and tough players left and right, so why do you guys keep fantasizing that they have no use?? Shero went from Godard to Macyntire when he already had Engelland and Asham, Stan Bowman added Mayers and Carcillo to a team that had nobody, Lamoriello added Eric Boulton and Cam Janseen to a team that had Adam Mair and David Clarkson and Joe Newindyk added Godard to the Stars, I'll take their opinion way over some fans with rose-coloured glasses all the time.

Fact of the matter is I'm certain that players like Thomas Plekanec (who BTW publicly said he wouldn't mind a fighter, imagine what that means when the mics are off), Mike Cammalleri and Scott Gomez would jump for the joy themselves if the Habs added some sort of protector, and it's that little extra confidence that will make the team better.

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Old
08-25-2011, 09:23 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Oh, I certainly am. Enforcers are patently useless and hurt their team because they're crappy hockey players. The idea that fighting prevents or deters anything is a complete myth; it is purely an entertaining (and dangerous!) sideshow. Hiring an enforcer would be, at best, a waste of cap space on a player that'll spend the season in the pressbox.
I'm not sure if this used to be the case but in the league that we're in right now, I'd have to agree with this. I don't see how a pure goon can really benefit us or anyone else.

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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I applaud PG for what he's done on the subject -- it hints that Habs management does, in fact, "get it".
I don't see how he's demonstrated this yet. Adding Cole would've been nice if he was about a decade younger, but adding him now doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Yeah, he'll help change the identity of the team somewhat, but he's old and his best years are probably behind him. We need to invest in younger forwards (specifically bigger/tougher forwards) like MaxPac with the potential to be more well balanced forwards in the future. If say Emelin becomes another tough d-man, that will help for sure but that's not PG's doing and he's also not playing up front.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
that day, you'll see a thread complaining we dont have enough skills in the line-up
If they neglect skill for size, sure you will. It's about balance.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 08-25-2011 at 09:51 AM.
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Old
08-25-2011, 09:31 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I'm curious, is Tootoo considered a heavy weight? Has he fought heavy weights, how did he do? We'd never land him now that he's shown flashes of production in the point columns now that he's sober.
Nah, not really a heavy-weight, but he is a GREAT energy player though. He is in fact exactly what I hope for in Ryan White + playing on the pk.

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08-25-2011, 10:31 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
You're just another of those '' I don't understand what a goon actually does, so I guess they have to be useless? type of guys''

#1: Do not mix regular season with playoffs!!!! Mindset is different, goals are different, having a penalty in 100x times worse in the playoffs and all 10 guys give their 100% every shift. It's 2 different seasons and 2 different ways of approaching the game, now of course, for x and y lovers on this board, they have no idea of what I'm talking about.
Yes, exactly. They're too detrimental to the game when it really matters. That isn't convincing evidence that we should be loading up on goons.

Quote:
#2: Fighters do prevent injuries. They don't stop every injury because their job isn't to stop the other team of playing the game of hockey. It's to keep things honest out there, that players don't aim knees or heads or whatever, that after the whistle they don't start threatening teammates or slash whoever they please, I CLEARLY saw on more then one occasion players go back to the bench with their head between their legs in a sign of disbelief, asking themselves what the hell they were gonna do when the going got tough, something that never happened when the hated Laraque played for the Habs, hell even Markov looked meaner on the ice then Lucic and Niel when we had somebody that was watching them.
That's not what I saw at all during Laraque's short tenure here. Remember Sauer on Kostitsyn? Remember that useless scrub that sent a flying elbow at Gorges? People are going to take liberties one way or another. Having a tough guy play 5 minutes a night isn't going to stop anything.

You can keep ignoring all the injuries that happen despite a lineup of tough guys if you want though. When are you going to address all the concussions via cheap shots the Bruins have suffered over the years? Good thing Bergeron, Savard and Horton had all those tough guys keeping the game honest, eh? Sounds like if anyone here is an "x and y" person, it's you.

Quote:
#3 GM's are still signing fighters and tough players left and right, so why do you guys keep fantasizing that they have no use?? Shero went from Godard to Macyntire when he already had Engelland and Asham, Stan Bowman added Mayers and Carcillo to a team that had nobody, Lamoriello added Eric Boulton and Cam Janseen to a team that had Adam Mair and David Clarkson and Joe Newindyk added Godard to the Stars, I'll take their opinion way over some fans with rose-coloured glasses all the time.

Fact of the matter is I'm certain that players like Thomas Plekanec (who BTW publicly said he wouldn't mind a fighter, imagine what that means when the mics are off), Mike Cammalleri and Scott Gomez would jump for the joy themselves if the Habs added some sort of protector, and it's that little extra confidence that will make the team better.
I already said I want some tougher guys on this team, I don't want useless players like Godard and Engellend though. I'd love to have Asham or Carcillo type players. I think they probably strike more fear into players like Lucic or Neil than some big dumb ape who'll probably never be on the ice at the same time as them anyway.

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08-25-2011, 12:02 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
For all those that claim it's difficult to find modern Fergusons & Nilans, you really don't get it.

It's difficult only for teams that are not looking for that sort of player. Why is it not difficult for the Bruins, the Ducks & the Flyers to get that kind of player? Every year they seem to have two or three that can play that game. Dammit the Bruins have Thornton, McQuaid, Lucic, Campbell, Boychek & Chara. That's six players and the you're telling me the Habs can't get one! And I'm not talking about fighters. I'm talking about pain in the a$$ players.

If a team is not primed to look for such a player, they won't find him and if they do find him by accident they would not know how to develop him. That's another thing. You need to get the player and you need to train the player to play that game.

Many of you guys called Pouliot a soft player. I want to see what the BRuins do with him this year. If He turns his game around and plays Bruins hockey - hard nosed, physical, gritty hockey - then that tells me the hardnosed physical hockey player is not hard to find if you know how to develop him.

The Habs are not alone. There are many teams that do not look for and don't know how to develop that sort of player.
Nilan, Ferguson.

Thornton, McQuaid, Campbell, Boychuk.

Do these guys really belong in the same category? Thornton played less than 7min/g in the playoffs. Nilan and Ferguson were serious players.

I don't think you'll find anyone who will say that Chara wasn't a fantastic signing, and Lucic wasn't a great draft pick. Great moves by the Bruins, even if it wasn't for their fighting ability - that's just icing on the cake. Of course, Lucic was passed up 49 times in his draft year, by many winning organizations. Many thought Chara was a product of playing with Redden, including his own team at the time. Full credit to the Bruins for these moves, but they were far from obvious.

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08-25-2011, 12:26 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not sure if this used to be the case but in the league that we're in right now, I'd have to agree with this. I don't see how a pure goon can really benefit us or anyone else.


I don't see how he's demonstrated this yet. Adding Cole would've been nice if he was about a decade younger, but adding him now doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Yeah, he'll help change the identity of the team somewhat, but he's old and his best years are probably behind him. We need to invest in younger forwards (specifically bigger/tougher forwards) like MaxPac with the potential to be more well balanced forwards in the future. If say Emelin becomes another tough d-man, that will help for sure but that's not PG's doing and he's also not playing up front.

If they neglect skill for size, sure you will. It's about balance.
I don't disagree with you I just feel a lot of people don't acknowledge how much easier it is to get a guy who is on the "prime fence" than a guy entering his prime. It's easier said than done and I think considering what team we are and the fact that many UFA's probably don't want to sign here over a place like say LA or Vancouver, signing Cole was a fairly smart move. Of course it can backfire but if it doesn't we'll be golden. Plus Cole has done nothing to suggest being past prime just yet. I think people are jumping to conclusions a little bit. There's no magical number where prime ends. Plus if I'm not mistaking Chiarelli was going after Cole too. People seem to think he's a pretty smart GM, sure we outbid him but we got a player he intended to get.

But overall I don't disagree with your analysis that it would've been better to get a younger player, with how teams are smarter with UFA these days though it just doesn't seem very easy to pull it off. Some people think Columbus is nuts for trading for and signing Wiz to his deal. How many other solid offensive D on the market just entering their prime were there? Deals can be made but honestly easier said than done. I think it's a solid move by CBJ personally.

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Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
Yes, exactly. They're too detrimental to the game when it really matters. That isn't convincing evidence that we should be loading up on goons.



That's not what I saw at all during Laraque's short tenure here. Remember Sauer on Kostitsyn? Remember that useless scrub that sent a flying elbow at Gorges? People are going to take liberties one way or another. Having a tough guy play 5 minutes a night isn't going to stop anything.

You can keep ignoring all the injuries that happen despite a lineup of tough guys if you want though. When are you going to address all the concussions via cheap shots the Bruins have suffered over the years? Good thing Bergeron, Savard and Horton had all those tough guys keeping the game honest, eh? Sounds like if anyone here is an "x and y" person, it's you.



I already said I want some tougher guys on this team, I don't want useless players like Godard and Engellend though. I'd love to have Asham or Carcillo type players. I think they probably strike more fear into players like Lucic or Neil than some big dumb ape who'll probably never be on the ice at the same time as them anyway.
I have to agree, for a guy who tries to make other people out to be deluded by rose colored glasses you surely destroyed his argument imo.

If anything some people need to take off the blood colored glasses and realize this isn't MMA it's hockey. Having a goon on your team won't stop your players from getting injured unless said goon is good enough to play on a top line and even then doubtful he stops the injury. It does add good entertainment value but I'll watch 5-6 less fights a year in order to win even 1-10 more games we'd likely lose by having a guy like Konopka on the squad. (Plus he'd be benched for the rest of the season and ask for a trade within a month)


Last edited by Mike8: 08-25-2011 at 12:29 PM. Reason: merge
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Old
08-25-2011, 01:18 PM
  #134
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i wish our fans were tougher. both mentally and emotionally...

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08-25-2011, 04:39 PM
  #135
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i wish our fans were tougher. both mentally and emotionally...
if only we had someone to watch over us...

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08-25-2011, 06:13 PM
  #136
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You're just another of those '' I don't understand what a goon actually does, so I guess they have to be useless? type of guys''

#1: Do not mix regular season with playoffs!!!! Mindset is different, goals are different, having a penalty in 100x times worse in the playoffs and all 10 guys give their 100% every shift. It's 2 different seasons and 2 different ways of approaching the game, now of course, for x and y lovers on this board, they have no idea of what I'm talking about.

#2: Fighters do prevent injuries. They don't stop every injury because their job isn't to stop the other team of playing the game of hockey. It's to keep things honest out there, that players don't aim knees or heads or whatever, that after the whistle they don't start threatening teammates or slash whoever they please, I CLEARLY saw on more then one occasion players go back to the bench with their head between their legs in a sign of disbelief, asking themselves what the hell they were gonna do when the going got tough, something that never happened when the hated Laraque played for the Habs, hell even Markov looked meaner on the ice then Lucic and Niel when we had somebody that was watching them.

#3 GM's are still signing fighters and tough players left and right, so why do you guys keep fantasizing that they have no use?? Shero went from Godard to Macyntire when he already had Engelland and Asham, Stan Bowman added Mayers and Carcillo to a team that had nobody, Lamoriello added Eric Boulton and Cam Janseen to a team that had Adam Mair and David Clarkson and Joe Newindyk added Godard to the Stars, I'll take their opinion way over some fans with rose-coloured glasses all the time.

Fact of the matter is I'm certain that players like Thomas Plekanec (who BTW publicly said he wouldn't mind a fighter, imagine what that means when the mics are off), Mike Cammalleri and Scott Gomez would jump for the joy themselves if the Habs added some sort of protector, and it's that little extra confidence that will make the team better.
Great post. You have been spot on the entire thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
Yes, exactly. They're too detrimental to the game when it really matters. That isn't convincing evidence that we should be loading up on goons.



That's not what I saw at all during Laraque's short tenure here. Remember Sauer on Kostitsyn? Remember that useless scrub that sent a flying elbow at Gorges? People are going to take liberties one way or another. Having a tough guy play 5 minutes a night isn't going to stop anything.

You can keep ignoring all the injuries that happen despite a lineup of tough guys if you want though. When are you going to address all the concussions via cheap shots the Bruins have suffered over the years? Good thing Bergeron, Savard and Horton had all those tough guys keeping the game honest, eh? Sounds like if anyone here is an "x and y" person, it's you.



I already said I want some tougher guys on this team, I don't want useless players like Godard and Engellend though. I'd love to have Asham or Carcillo type players. I think they probably strike more fear into players like Lucic or Neil than some big dumb ape who'll probably never be on the ice at the same time as them anyway.
For the last time, please, do not ever use Laraque as a gauge or measuring stick for the effectiveness of having a fighter on a team.

Laraque stood up for his teammates in Pittsburgh. When Laraque moved to Montreal, he suddenly decided to adopt the "fighter's code" of only engaging in staged fights.

It was plain to see for everyone that BGL did not want to be in Montreal, did not want to play for the Canadiens and proved that game after game by not sticking up for the Habs on the ice.

Laraque was pathetic and it is even more pathetic for people to hold him as the standard for whether this team needs a tough guy/fighter/enforcer/protector or not.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 08-25-2011 at 06:37 PM. Reason: merged
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08-25-2011, 06:57 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Great post. You have been spot on the entire thread.



For the last time, please, do not ever use Laraque as a gauge or measuring stick for the effectiveness of having a fighter on a team.

Laraque stood up for his teammates in Pittsburgh. When Laraque moved to Montreal, he suddenly decided to adopt the "fighter's code" of only engaging in staged fights.

It was plain to see for everyone that BGL did not want to be in Montreal, did not want to play for the Canadiens and proved that game after game by not sticking up for the Habs on the ice.

Laraque was pathetic and it is even more pathetic for people to hold him as the standard for whether this team needs a tough guy/fighter/enforcer/protector or not.
and yet he was as effective protecting opponents from playing cheap or dirty as Thornton was for the Bs...

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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
#2: Fighters do prevent injuries. They don't stop every injury because their job isn't to stop the other team of playing the game of hockey. It's to keep things honest out there, that players don't aim knees or heads or whatever, that after the whistle they don't start threatening teammates or slash whoever they please, I CLEARLY saw on more then one occasion players go back to the bench with their head between their legs in a sign of disbelief, asking themselves what the hell they were gonna do when the going got tough, something that never happened when the hated Laraque played for the Habs, hell even Markov looked meaner on the ice then Lucic and Niel when we had somebody that was watching them.
wich injuries ? the one on Crosby ? or the one on Bergeron ? or Savard ? or Horton ? (or Booth, etc)... unless you think these players were victim of an "honest hit"...

I mean, these enforcers are such a deterrent that it was AFTER Thornton "threatened" the Van. bench that Horton was run by A. Rome... wasnt Rome supposed to be frightened or something ?


Last edited by Habsfan18: 08-25-2011 at 07:07 PM. Reason: merged
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08-25-2011, 07:17 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Nilan, Ferguson.

Thornton, McQuaid, Campbell, Boychuk.

Do these guys really belong in the same category? Thornton played less than 7min/g in the playoffs. Nilan and Ferguson were serious players.

I don't think you'll find anyone who will say that Chara wasn't a fantastic signing, and Lucic wasn't a great draft pick. Great moves by the Bruins, even if it wasn't for their fighting ability - that's just icing on the cake. Of course, Lucic was passed up 49 times in his draft year, by many winning organizations. Many thought Chara was a product of playing with Redden, including his own team at the time. Full credit to the Bruins for these moves, but they were far from obvious.
While the Canadiens management and a portion of the Habs fanbase wait for the "perfect" fighter/scorer to magically appear, other teams make moves to increase their toughness in the modern NHL.

Surely those other organizations do not know what they are doing. We, the non-violent Habs know better than they do, right?

This will be a defining year for the Habs. We have Martin the passive and Gauthier the pacifist in complete control of the team with their offseason acquisitions and non-acquisitions.

With a team loaded with talent and skill and a lack of fighters, the Habs should be able to prove the rest of the GM's as being grossly wrong with regard to fighting.

But what if we dont? Then what?

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08-25-2011, 07:21 PM
  #139
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As long as Jacques Martin is the head coach and that Pierre Gauthier listens to his advice, the lack of toughness will be a recurring problem. One would have hoped that those two would have learned from being the best team being kicked out of the playoffs year after year in Ottawa by a much tougher Leafs' team but it sure doesn't seem like it.

There is absolutely no reason to think that a guy like Brad Winchester wouldn't help this team. None.

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08-25-2011, 07:33 PM
  #140
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As long as Jacques Martin is the head coach and that Pierre Gauthier listens to his advice, the lack of toughness will be a recurring problem. One would have hoped that those two would have learned from being the best team being kicked out of the playoffs year after year in Ottawa by a much tougher Leafs' team but it sure doesn't seem like it.

There is absolutely no reason to think that a guy like Brad Winchester wouldn't help this team. None.
Much tougher Leafs team? I don't think so. Ottawa had Chara, Neil, Fisher, Hnidy, then had others like Rob Ray, Leschyshyn, Todd Simpson, Varada, Bonvie, et al. come in. Heck, one of the more entertaining fight fests was Ottawa versus Philly, where Ottawa pretty much pummelled Philadelphia in a dozen fights.

No, Toronto won because of goaltending. Ottawa had significantly more fighting depth.

...

On Winchester: I disagree there too. I think he's a slug with little to offer. He's a poor fighter, not a great skater, and doesn't add all that much to the team (defensive play, neutral zone, fundamentals, board work offensively). Frankly, I much prefer Moen, White, Darche and Desharnais, and those are the only players he'd compete with. I fail to see what Winchester offers--other than size--than any of them. They're all fundamentally superior and far more talented.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
While the Canadiens management and a portion of the Habs fanbase wait for the "perfect" fighter/scorer to magically appear, other teams make moves to increase their toughness in the modern NHL.
There are fewer goons in the NHL than at any point in the last couple decades. No one's wanting a 'perfect' fighter/scorer, so please cut that nonsense out. People want gritty players that can play the game and drop the gloves when necessary--and this is replacing goons in this NHL. So I'm not getting your rant here at all.


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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post

Laraque stood up for his teammates in Pittsburgh. When Laraque moved to Montreal, he suddenly decided to adopt the "fighter's code" of only engaging in staged fights.

It was plain to see for everyone that BGL did not want to be in Montreal, did not want to play for the Canadiens and proved that game after game by not sticking up for the Habs on the ice.

Laraque was pathetic and it is even more pathetic for people to hold him as the standard for whether this team needs a tough guy/fighter/enforcer/protector or not.
This is a gross distortion of reality. Laraque was criticised all the way back to his Edmonton days of being too nice of a tough guy. In Pittsburgh, he was not considered an enforcer because he didn't stand up for teammates so much. That's why Pens fans weren't disappointed to see him go, and warned Hab fans that he wouldn't be the enforcer many desired. I'm not certain how you determined that Laraque changed because he didn't want to be in Montreal--his play was consistent with that of his Pens' days, and it was equally evident earlier in his career.

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08-25-2011, 10:56 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
For the last time, please, do not ever use Laraque as a gauge or measuring stick for the effectiveness of having a fighter on a team.

Laraque stood up for his teammates in Pittsburgh. When Laraque moved to Montreal, he suddenly decided to adopt the "fighter's code" of only engaging in staged fights.

It was plain to see for everyone that BGL did not want to be in Montreal, did not want to play for the Canadiens and proved that game after game by not sticking up for the Habs on the ice.

Laraque was pathetic and it is even more pathetic for people to hold him as the standard for whether this team needs a tough guy/fighter/enforcer/protector or not.
I'm not the one who brought up Laraque. Read the post I quoted. It's the other guy trying to argue that BGL was a positive influence on the team.

Glad you picked out the argument that suits you though. Still yet to be addressed; how well the big bad Bruins protected Savard, Bergeron and Horton. I'm waiting...

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08-25-2011, 11:11 PM
  #142
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Much tougher Leafs team? I don't think so. Ottawa had Chara, Neil, Fisher, Hnidy, then had others like Rob Ray, Leschyshyn, Todd Simpson, Varada, Bonvie, et al. come in. Heck, one of the more entertaining fight fests was Ottawa versus Philly, where Ottawa pretty much pummelled Philadelphia in a dozen fights.

No, Toronto won because of goaltending. Ottawa had significantly more fighting depth.

...

On Winchester: I disagree there too. I think he's a slug with little to offer. He's a poor fighter, not a great skater, and doesn't add all that much to the team (defensive play, neutral zone, fundamentals, board work offensively). Frankly, I much prefer Moen, White, Darche and Desharnais, and those are the only players he'd compete with. I fail to see what Winchester offers--other than size--than any of them. They're all fundamentally superior and far more talented.
Half the guys you've mentioned on Ottawa weren't playing under Martin! It's not until he was fired that many of them started being able to use their toughness, some of them were actually added on one year at a time realizing that the Leafs were intimidating them!

As for your assessment of Winchester, I guess no one is good enough in that department unless they play like Iginla, right? Well there aren't many Iginla in the NHL and even fewer available. That's why you have role players on a team and not all of them have to fit the same mold, the same role. Winchester would add something that the Habs don't have and certainly would help a guy like Moen!

Disagree? That's fine. It doesn't change that I'd rather have a bit more toughness than a team of sissies being pushed around.

You probably like Martin's strategy also, right? "If we get enough smaller skilled players in the same mold, who cares if some get hurt, we'll replace them with others exactly the same!"

It makes me sick to my stomach to see how soft the Canadiens have become as I've seen the glory days.

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08-25-2011, 11:17 PM
  #143
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I'm not the one who brought up Laraque. Read the post I quoted. It's the other guy trying to argue that BGL was a positive influence on the team.

Glad you picked out the argument that suits you though. Still yet to be addressed; how well the big bad Bruins protected Savard, Bergeron and Horton. I'm waiting...
The big bad Bruins protected Marchand as he was giving little punches to the head of Sedin. They also protected Boychuk as he knocked out Mason Raymond with a dirty hit. They protected Patrice Bergeron as he turned Christian Erhoff into his own little whipping boy. The big bad Bruins turned Peverley and Ryder into physical hitting forwards.

They intimidated the Canucks. Pure and simple. The Bruins players.........all of them...........had that swagger and confidence to do pretty much whatever they wanted to do to the Canucks.

You keep bringing up the battles that they lost......Savard, Bergeron and Horton. However, winning the war is more important that losing a battle or two.

That concept is lost on many people posting here as well as the current management of the Canadiens.

But, as I said on my first post on this thread, this is all a moot point and an exercise in futility. Gauthier and Martin have spoken. It will be more of the same that we saw in the last two years. And as long as this team lacks the ability to intimidate other teams, we will be watching other teams skate with the Cup.

Where Detroit lacked the ability to intimidate physically, they overcame that with superior talent. Where Boston lacked the ability to out- finesse talented teams, they overcame that with intimidation and toughness.

We have neither the superior talent nor the ability to intimidate teams. Going to be more of what we have seen for too long in Montreal.

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08-25-2011, 11:44 PM
  #144
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The big bad Bruins protected Marchand as he was giving little punches to the head of Sedin. They also protected Boychuk as he knocked out Mason Raymond with a dirty hit. They protected Patrice Bergeron as he turned Christian Erhoff into his own little whipping boy. The big bad Bruins turned Peverley and Ryder into physical hitting forwards.

They intimidated the Canucks. Pure and simple. The Bruins players.........all of them...........had that swagger and confidence to do pretty much whatever they wanted to do to the Canucks.

You keep bringing up the battles that they lost......Savard, Bergeron and Horton. However, winning the war is more important that losing a battle or two.

That concept is lost on many people posting here as well as the current management of the Canadiens.

But, as I said on my first post on this thread, this is all a moot point and an exercise in futility. Gauthier and Martin have spoken. It will be more of the same that we saw in the last two years. And as long as this team lacks the ability to intimidate other teams, we will be watching other teams skate with the Cup.

Where Detroit lacked the ability to intimidate physically, they overcame that with superior talent. Where Boston lacked the ability to out- finesse talented teams, they overcame that with intimidation and toughness.

We have neither the superior talent nor the ability to intimidate teams. Going to be more of what we have seen for too long in Montreal.
Are you saying it's possible without ? really ?

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08-25-2011, 11:49 PM
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Are you saying it's possible without ? really ?
Yes, if you have a coach who has his team playing aggressive hockey on defense and has his team playing puck possession hockey, you can win it all.

Sadly, Martin insists on a passive defense and we are nowhere near to being close to Detroit with regard to being a puck possession hockey team.

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08-25-2011, 11:51 PM
  #146
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It's bostin's d core that makes the reputation that they're slow, but even then, let's say your right, they're still more skilled then we are and having Shawn Thornton and Greg Campbell on that team does not make them score less goals then us. It makes the rest of the team the ability to play their game, whatever it is.

Oh, and a big fat at mathman's post, fights have been part of hockey longer then both our lives put together, if you don't like it then go watch the KHL or curling.
Didn't say having those guys made them any worse.

Thornton does what he does and he can play hockey.

Campbell is a superb penalty killer and not the best of fighter. We have Travis Moen who's a better fighter like that. We should have Ryan White, too.

I don't see Gill coming back next year. So, hopefully Montréal can sign a good, tough 5-6 dman.

Montréal will need to re-sign Moen, or get someone else who can fight.

The habs don't have the skill Detroit does.

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08-26-2011, 12:09 AM
  #147
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If you add points and hits, Eric Cole is 10th in the league.

The first 9 are: Clutterbuck, Ruutu, Brown, Ovechkin, Matt Martin, Brouwer, Ott, and Morrow.

Don't know what that means, but I like it.

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08-26-2011, 12:39 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The big bad Bruins protected Marchand as he was giving little punches to the head of Sedin. They also protected Boychuk as he knocked out Mason Raymond with a dirty hit. They protected Patrice Bergeron as he turned Christian Erhoff into his own little whipping boy. The big bad Bruins turned Peverley and Ryder into physical hitting forwards.

They intimidated the Canucks. Pure and simple. The Bruins players.........all of them...........had that swagger and confidence to do pretty much whatever they wanted to do to the Canucks.

You keep bringing up the battles that they lost......Savard, Bergeron and Horton. However, winning the war is more important that losing a battle or two.

That concept is lost on many people posting here as well as the current management of the Canadiens.

But, as I said on my first post on this thread, this is all a moot point and an exercise in futility. Gauthier and Martin have spoken. It will be more of the same that we saw in the last two years. And as long as this team lacks the ability to intimidate other teams, we will be watching other teams skate with the Cup.

Where Detroit lacked the ability to intimidate physically, they overcame that with superior talent. Where Boston lacked the ability to out- finesse talented teams, they overcame that with intimidation and toughness.

We have neither the superior talent nor the ability to intimidate teams. Going to be more of what we have seen for too long in Montreal.
What? So when the Bruins are the ones administering cheap shots, it's because of team toughness, but when they're on the receiving end it's...because of team toughness? Help me out here...

Are we really going to use Marchand as a good example of "team toughness" because he slapped one of the Sedins around? If you believe that ANY player on the Habs would just sit there and take that from Marchand then I just don't know what to say.

And please don't try and convince us that aggression alone won the Bruins the Stanley Cup. How about the excellent play from Thomas, Seidenberg, Chara, Marchand, Horton, Bergeron and Krejci?

We can rattle off the example til the cows come home, and the only reason you'll ever appear to be right is because the team being cited is the most recent Stanley Cup winner. Every off-season people want to emulate the latest Stanley Cup winner. After Boston and Anaheim won, everyone was talking about how having a physical team is the way to win. After Detroit won, everyone was saying good drafting is the only way to win. After Pittsburgh and Chicago win, everyone said drafting in the lottery is the only way to win. After Carolina won, everyone said that riding a hot goalie was the only way to win. Which is it?

And for the trillionth time, I WOULD like to see a tougher team. I just don't want to see a goon like Godard taking the roster spot so that he can cast some supposed immunity spell over the rest of the team with his ferocious 5 minutes of ice-time. Give me a guy who can hit and skate and isn't a liability. I was praying that PG would make a move for Chris Neil at the deadline.

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08-26-2011, 01:31 AM
  #149
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if only we had someone to watch over us...
This is my nomination for POTY.

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08-26-2011, 01:36 AM
  #150
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Half the guys you've mentioned on Ottawa weren't playing under Martin!
Uhm, like who? Martin was in Ottawa from '95 to '04.

The players I mentioned are as follows: Chara, Neil, Fisher, Hnidy, then had others like Rob Ray, Leschyshyn, Todd Simpson, Varada, Bonvie

Chara - 3 of his 4 Senator seasons were under Martin. He averaged higher PIMs under Martin than under any other coach in his career. He also fought significantly more under Martin than under any other coach in his career.

Neil - set his personal PIM record under Martin. Fought by far more under Martin than ever since. In fact, his three seasons under Martin, he fought more than in any other season since.

Fisher - not a fighter, but very gritty and a good fighter when he does drop the gloves. Had his two most active fighting seasons under Martin.

Hnidy - broke into the NHL under Martin despite being a limited defenseman who could just fight and play a gritty game. Had his most fights of his career under Martin and set personal PIM records.

Of the others I listed: Rob Ray was only brought in during Martin's time; same for Bonvie (though both were at the end of their careers and barely played in Ottawa, they did have some effect and their respective acquisitions were demonstrative of Ottawa's inclination to actually goon it up with other clubs, hence their pummelling of Philly); the others I listed, too, were brought in exclusively under Martin's regime.

So in fact, no, you're entirely wrong in claiming that these players were added after Martin left. Your assertion that these players got tougher after Martin left is also entirely wrong. I don't understand how you could so adamantly contradict me when the facts are so easily accessible. Peculiar indeed. You should have stuck to your myth that you watched the games, so you know! rather than engage in this, because the fight logs are listed; the PIMs are listed, and these players I mentioned were more aggressive than ever under Martin.

EDIT: One more note on Martin: Ottawa set their personal record for most fighting majors in a season under Martin. While they were near the bottom-ranked in the NHL under Martin's reign in the '90s for fighting majors, from 2000-2004, Ottawa was consistently at least the middle of the pack, putting up more fighting majors than Toronto and Philly--and this was without a pure goon for much of that time, meaning they had greater team toughness and legit hockey players who could fight, much like Boston of today. By 3 seasons after Martin left Ottawa, they were back to being ranked 27th in the NHL for fighting majors. It's only been as Ottawa's declined to a bottomfeeder that they've looked to acquire goons, and that is for the very basic reason that when you're a terrible team, you need to entertain fans somehow.

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As for your assessment of Winchester, I guess no one is good enough in that department unless they play like Iginla, right?
This is a pretty silly statement. I never made any such claim. I said Winchester's not good enough, and listed why I thought so. I'm not sure why you felt the need to reduce and simplify my explanation for why I felt Winchester was limited and not a good fit to saying I only wanted an Iginla. It doesn't feel conducive to a worthwhile discussion to simplify and blatantly misrepresent my words, because then I must clarify them again to you.

I will give you examples, then:

I believe Shawn Thornton to be a worthwhile 4th liner because he can skate, forecheck, stick up for teammates, and doesn't hurt you defensively.

I don't mind Boulton much because he can forecheck, hit hard, and understands hockey fundamentals.

I don't even mind Janssen, even though I consider him limited and a goon, because he fully understands his role and he can actually forecheck and lay out big hits. He can change the feel of a game and have some impact purely based on hitting and doing what needs to be done. Mind you, I don't think such a limited player fits in Montreal, where 4 lines ought to be rolled.

Winchester, on the other hand, cannot fight. He'd be pummelled by any worthwhile goon. He'd have no impact on the game because he's not a devastating hitter, and would serve as a punching bag to the smaller Thornton, Lucic, and be ragdolled if he was ever a nuisance to Chara. No, I see no value in such a player. And that doesn't mean I need Iginla. It means I want a player who can have some impact on the forecheck, play some solid fundamentals, and actually hold his own in a fight. In other words: a legit fourth liner who would be a fourth liner even without fighting, but who--when fighting--actually does fight! Does that sound like Iginla?

Of Winchester's 10 fights last season:
- he narrowly beat the much smaller and older Jamal Mayers who's unfortunately seen better days (though Mayers completely outclassed him in a fight earlier in the season)
- he beat Sutherby, whom Subban was able to outmuscle
- the only heavyweight he was able to 'beat' was Staubitz, who's not a very good fighter himself, and who's 4 inches shorter. Staubitz also clearly was coming back in the fight when it ended, so it was even a borderline win.

He lost to any heavyweight he faced, and generally faced middle weights.

Of his previous 10 fights:
- he did not face one heavyweight, and he grappled and held on to all of them, not clearly winning any decision while losing some

Winchester would not keep any opposing team honest. He's the type of fighter that middle weights enjoy fighting because they have a 50/50 shot at beating a 6'5 guy and pumping up their team in the process; much like Rypien beating up Gill. It's far more motivating to see your 5'11 middle weight go toe to toe with the opposing team's most active fighter who's 6'5. Winchester would be detrimental to Montreal because of this, I'd say.


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