HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

RIP Joey Vento

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-25-2011, 01:13 PM
  #51
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 40,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
exactly. The guy has every right to ask orders be placed in English. That does not make him a racist.
One thing that visiting foreign countries teaches you: If you want to get food, you better be able to order in the native language spoken by your server, or you're dead out of luck. Trying to order in English in the corner pizza shop in an Italian town gets you annoyed stares and no food. Trying to order a cheesesteak in Philly without speaking English is going to get you annoyed stares and no food. These are simple facts of life.

Edit: Sawdalite: I have seen people turned away abroad for not being able to communicate with their server. You aren't depriving someone of their basic human rights just because you can't understand what they're saying.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.

Last edited by Beef Invictus: 08-25-2011 at 01:22 PM.
Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 01:26 PM
  #52
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
lack of respect for someone who just died is always fun
Is it more fun to close one's eyes and ignore? This thread was placed here for discussion and people's opinions was it not?

I never really understood how it is fine to bash people who are alive and can read it yet it is wrong to give one's honest view once they pass away... and everybody has to pretend that they did no wrong.

And FWIW, I expressed my same views when that sign was first reported.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 01:35 PM
  #53
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
One thing that visiting foreign countries teaches you: If you want to get food, you better be able to order in the native language spoken by your server, or you're dead out of luck. Trying to order in English in the corner pizza shop in an Italian town gets you annoyed stares and no food. Trying to order a cheesesteak in Philly without speaking English is going to get you annoyed stares and no food. These are simple facts of life.

Edit: Sawdalite: I have seen people turned away abroad for not being able to communicate with their server. You aren't depriving someone of their basic human rights just because you can't understand what they're saying.
I have not in any case where they treated people with respect and did not demand and act rude... which in that case can be refused service since they abuse their rights, IMO. But I imagine that it could happen in some cases.

And when you treat people differently from the way you treat other people you are surely depriving people of their civil rights... Had you lived through he civil rights battles that changed America greatly you might better understand. When it is more widespread and blatant it is clearer to see. One establishment and one man is easier to ignore.

EDIT: And Vento was selling cheesesteaks... I'm sure the order could have been worked out if they wanted to do so.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 01:38 PM
  #54
RevUpThoseGolfCarts
Experts at losing
 
RevUpThoseGolfCarts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,811
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
In much of this thread it seems that not many people seem to agree with me that merchants are depriving people of their civil rights by refusing to serve them if they don't do things exactly their way... Beyond a person's views on whether people should learn English or not is the fact that all people have the same human rights in this country... as long as the customer is not abusing their rights they should be allowed to purchase and use the services others are offered.

Besides that, a smart businessman should go the extra mile and should try to work with the residents of the neighbourhood... But that was Vento's choice; IMO turning them away should not have been.

People in the Philly Area probably heard his Public Service radio spots that he purchased that ended with the phrase: "If you don't agree than you are a part of the problem" (paraphrased)... Joey did not like illegal immigration and spending taxpayer's dollars on them; he sadly grouped his Spanish speaking would-be customers in that category and refused them their civil rights... I am by no means a Liberal, and classify myself as Moderate and I am a second generation American whose mother grew up in Europe... I was offended by Geno's policy and boycotted them since the sign was put up.

I have traveled in Europe, Mexico, Asia, the Caribbean and French speaking Canada and have been served without problem when I courteously spoke English... I have never been refused nor turned away, I have always been able to work with the merchants and always have felt respected; I hate to think of people people in his country not being treated with like respect.
You should know that Geno's has never refused to service anyone because of the language they speak. He put the sign up because he thinks immigrants should make a better effort to learn english, not to force tourists to learn english or not receive their cheesesteak.

RevUpThoseGolfCarts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 01:43 PM
  #55
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 40,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
I have not in any case where they treated people with respect and did not demand and act rude... which in that case can be refused service since they abuse their rights, IMO. But I imagine that it could happen in some cases.

And when you treat people differently from the way you treat other people you are surely depriving people of their civil rights... Had you lived through he civil rights battles that changed America greatly you might better understand. When it is more widespread and blatant it is clearer to see. One establishment and one man is easier to ignore.
There's a massive difference between refusing service to a person who has a different skin color and refusing service to an individual you can't communicate with.

When I was in Rome, I saw several Asian speakers be turned away almost immediately when they couldn't communicate their order (This was around lunch time when the place was very busy). We went into one small restaurant where a member of our group (the only one who had zero affinity for any non-English language) tried to order in English and he was immediately told to stand aside to let the people behind him order first. One of us ended up having to order for him. At no point did I or he feel like his civil rights had been violated. The simple fact of the matter is that the server could not understand him.

Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 01:57 PM
  #56
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's a massive difference between refusing service to a person who has a different skin color and refusing service to an individual you can't communicate with.

When I was in Rome, I saw several Asian speakers be turned away almost immediately when they couldn't communicate their order (This was around lunch time when the place was very busy). We went into one small restaurant where a member of our group (the only one who had zero affinity for any non-English language) tried to order in English and he was immediately told to stand aside to let the people behind him order first. One of us ended up having to order for him. At no point did I or he feel like his civil rights had been violated. The simple fact of the matter is that the server could not understand him.
And this is the moral of the story. This "civil rights" idea should not be used in this case, due to it not being anything related to racism.

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:03 PM
  #57
Hollywood Couturier
Moderator
 
Hollywood Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 20,455
vCash: 500
I feel like it's pretty obvious that if you're in a country you should speak the language that is spoken there. Or at least make an effort to. While I was in Italy every single meal I would order it in Italian. If you show at least a little effort the people will have no problems. Some people do not make that effort and that is what Joey Vento focused on. In no way do I see how that can be considered wrong.

__________________

"I Came Here To Bury Caesar, Not Praise Him" - Roy Halladay
Hollywood Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:05 PM
  #58
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
In much of this thread it seems that not many people seem to agree with me that merchants are depriving people of their civil rights by refusing to serve them if they don't do things exactly their way... Beyond a person's views on whether people should learn English or not is the fact that all people have the same human rights in this country... as long as the customer is not abusing their rights they should be allowed to purchase and use the services others are offered.

Besides that, a smart businessman should go the extra mile and should try to work with the residents of the neighbourhood... But that was Vento's choice; IMO turning them away should not have been.

People in the Philly Area probably heard his Public Service radio spots that he purchased that ended with the phrase: "If you don't agree than you are a part of the problem" (paraphrased)... Joey did not like illegal immigration and spending taxpayer's dollars on them; he sadly grouped his Spanish speaking would-be customers in that category and refused them their civil rights... I am by no means a Liberal, and classify myself as Moderate and I am a second generation American whose mother grew up in Europe... I was offended by Geno's policy and boycotted them since the sign was put up.

I have traveled in Europe, Mexico, Asia, the Caribbean and French speaking Canada and have been served without problem when I courteously spoke English... I have never been refused nor turned away, I have always been able to work with the merchants and always have felt respected; I hate to think of people people in his country not being treated with like respect.
People don't agree with you because they understand a very simple principle that a business is not public property. See what Michigan bar and restaurant owners are up to these days. Note that this isn't my opinion, but something years and years and years of American law has backed which ties into the Constitution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Some people do not make that effort and that is what Joey Vento focused on. In no way do I see how that can be considered wrong.
He may have focused on that, but he went about it as an ignorant, stereotypical south Philly goomba.


Last edited by Terence Peterman: 08-25-2011 at 02:10 PM.
Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:09 PM
  #59
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's a massive difference between refusing service to a person who has a different skin color and refusing service to an individual you can't communicate with.

When I was in Rome, I saw several Asian speakers be turned away almost immediately when they couldn't communicate their order (This was around lunch time when the place was very busy). We went into one small restaurant where a member of our group (the only one who had zero affinity for any non-English language) tried to order in English and he was immediately told to stand aside to let the people behind him order first. One of us ended up having to order for him. At no point did I or he feel like his civil rights had been violated. The simple fact of the matter is that the server could not understand him.
That is an isolated case where the server did okay by politely working with a person... I personally try to communicate in the language of the establishment when possible... In that case I would not feel my rights were being denied either.

Back to Geno's... Joey has made no attempt to hide his views on people coming into 'our' country and taking taxpayer dollars away from taxpayers... he has paid for radio time to tell people what he felt was right... it was a totally different circumstance. My point was that I have never been treated with disrespect abroad and I hate to see it in America.

Had Geno's turned people away due to merely a lack of communication I would be disappointed in their not being smarter and more caring but would not be repulsed... but that sign was a slap in the face.

To me depriving people their civil rights does not only go as far as skin color.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:12 PM
  #60
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
That is an isolated case where the server did okay by politely working with a person... I personally try to communicate in the language of the establishment when possible... In that case I would not feel my rights were being denied either.

Back to Geno's... Joey has made no attempt to hide his views on people coming into 'our' country and taking taxpayer dollars away from taxpayers... he has paid for radio time to tell people what he felt was right... it was a totally different circumstance. My point was that I have never been treated with disrespect abroad and I hate to see it in America.

Had Geno's turned people away due to merely a lack of communication I would be disappointed in their not being smarter and more caring but would not be repulsed... but that sign was a slap in the face.

To me depriving people their civil rights does not only go as far as skin color.
Who? Illegals? How wrong of him!

That goes back to what others were saying before. His ancestors made an effort to get citizenship, learn English, etc. Nothing was handed to them.

He shouldn't have to adjust to the customer's language.

JVR21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:13 PM
  #61
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
And this is the moral of the story. This "civil rights" idea should not be used in this case, due to it not being anything related to racism.
So bigotry is fine since when it is not racism?

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:16 PM
  #62
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Who? Illegals? How wrong of him!
How dare they try to make more of their lives.

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:17 PM
  #63
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
So bigotry is fine since when it is not racism?
How was he a bigot?

JVR21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:19 PM
  #64
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
That is an isolated case where the server did okay by politely working with a person... I personally try to communicate in the language of the establishment when possible... In that case I would not feel my rights were being denied either.

Back to Geno's... Joey has made no attempt to hide his views on people coming into 'our' country and taking taxpayer dollars away from taxpayers... he has paid for radio time to tell people what he felt was right... it was a totally different circumstance. My point was that I have never been treated with disrespect abroad and I hate to see it in America.

Had Geno's turned people away due to merely a lack of communication I would be disappointed in their not being smarter and more caring but would not be repulsed... but that sign was a slap in the face.

To me depriving people their civil rights does not only go as far as skin color.
While I think the policy was pure d-baggery, it is fascinating that you focus on the supposed rights of the customers and ignore the rights of a private business owner. What is even more confusing is your conflation of the policy on site with freedom of speech rights in this country.

Their rule was speak English... plenty of businesses have rules that determine whether or not they are going to provide you service. Now, whether that is a good thing or not is definitely debatable... but there's also a reason that libertarian political beliefs lead to the desire to abolish the Civil Rights Act.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:19 PM
  #65
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
So bigotry is fine since when it is not racism?
How is this case bigotry?

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:20 PM
  #66
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
So bigotry is fine since when it is not racism?
"Learn English" is not bigotry. Anyone can learn English.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:20 PM
  #67
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Who? Illegals? How wrong of him!

That goes back to what others were saying before. His ancestors made an effort to get citizenship, learn English, etc. Nothing was handed to them.

He shouldn't have to adjust to the customer's language.
It is wrong to assume the Spanish customers were illegals... My point is he feels as he feels... and he ties the two together.

Away from that, as a businessman he should do his business fairly and not determine who should and should not be served.

The area he is located in has a large amount of Spanish speaking people... as an area business he has a responsibility to serve the community he is located in and in return he will be rewarded with their patronage.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:22 PM
  #68
RevUpThoseGolfCarts
Experts at losing
 
RevUpThoseGolfCarts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,811
vCash: 500
He asks them to "PLEASE" speak English since the people working at the shop may not be able to speak any other language.

Why is this such a big deal? I make an attempt to speak in another country's language when I visit, don't see why ordering a cheesesteak in english is so hard (and controversial) to learn.

RevUpThoseGolfCarts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:23 PM
  #69
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 40,719
vCash: 500
So should a business owner be forced to learn every single language on earth so that no situation will arise where they can't provide service?

Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:24 PM
  #70
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
It is wrong to assume the Spanish customers were illegals... My point is he feels as he feels... and he ties the two together.

Away from that, as a businessman he should do his business fairly and not determine who should and should not be served.

The area he is located in has a large amount of Spanish speaking people... as an area business he has a responsibility to serve the community he is located in and in return he will be rewarded with their patronage.
1. I'm assuming he was complaining about illegals, since if they were citizens they wouldn't be robbing anyone of tax dollars. Not to mention he would've been bombarded with lawsuits if he was simply being racist.
2. Wrong. As a businessman he can do whatever he has the right to do. Ever heard of a "No shirt, No shoes, no service" policy?


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 08-25-2011 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Tone it down, no need for that
JVR21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:27 PM
  #71
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 40,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
That is an isolated case where the server did okay by politely working with a person... I personally try to communicate in the language of the establishment when possible... In that case I would not feel my rights were being denied either.

Back to Geno's... Joey has made no attempt to hide his views on people coming into 'our' country and taking taxpayer dollars away from taxpayers... he has paid for radio time to tell people what he felt was right... it was a totally different circumstance. My point was that I have never been treated with disrespect abroad and I hate to see it in America.

Had Geno's turned people away due to merely a lack of communication I would be disappointed in their not being smarter and more caring but would not be repulsed... but that sign was a slap in the face.

To me depriving people their civil rights does not only go as far as skin color.
Actually, the guy behind the counter wasn't polite about it at all.

Edit: Ok, so I used to work at Blockbuster. Some Quebecois came in once, and either didn't speak English or insisted on speaking French. I couldn't help them with whatever their problem was because I couldn't communicate with them. Did I violate their civil rights?

Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:29 PM
  #72
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
While I think the policy was pure d-baggery, it is fascinating that you focus on the supposed rights of the customers and ignore the rights of a private business owner. What is even more confusing is your conflation of the policy on site with freedom of speech rights in this country.

Their rule was speak English... plenty of businesses have rules that determine whether or not they are going to provide you service. Now, whether that is a good thing or not is definitely debatable... but there's also a reason that libertarian political beliefs lead to the desire to abolish the Civil Rights Act.
They can have rules as long as they adhere to the law... and -- this is key -- they do not take away one's civil rights.

They can ban dogs from the esablishment... but cannot ban guide/help dogs for but one example.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:30 PM
  #73
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvr21
brb going to rob my rich, elderly neighbor so I can make more of my life.
If you've got a rich, elderly neighbor, it's probably safe to assume your problems are of the first world variety. I'm merely pointing out your love for American ideals, but only when convenient. Ignoring you understand why those people would want to move here, and why their first worry wouldn't be if they were in legal accordance, is ignoring large parts of those same American ideals.

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:30 PM
  #74
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
They can have rules as long as they adhere to the law... and -- this is key -- they do not take away one's civil rights.

They can ban dogs from the esablishment... but cannot ban guide/help dogs for but one example.
He didn't take away anybody's civil rights. End of story.

JVR21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2011, 02:31 PM
  #75
RevUpThoseGolfCarts
Experts at losing
 
RevUpThoseGolfCarts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,811
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
They can have rules as long as they adhere to the law... and -- this is key -- they do not take away one's civil rights.

They can ban dogs from the esablishment... but cannot ban guide/help dogs for but one example.
You are missing the point completely.

Asking someone to speak in a language you understand is NOT taking away any civil rights.

RevUpThoseGolfCarts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.