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HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

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Old
08-25-2011, 07:30 PM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

  1. Eligibility
    • Any person who spent a significant portion of his career playing as a defenseman is eligible
    • Players will be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players
    • A player's accomplishments at his secondary position may be taken into account; it is up to the list maker to determine how to evaluate such players
    • Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based on what they already did
  2. Preliminary Discussion Thread
    • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he does not plan on taking part in the voting phase
    • Any defenseman may be discussed
    • Posters are encouraged to share information about defensemen in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
    • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for Round 2 of Voting.
    • Please do NOT rank players outright in the preliminary thread.
  3. Voting
    1. Round 1
      • All participants submit a list of 80 defensemen ranked in order
      • All eras MUST be considered, and consideration should be given to both NHL and non-NHL players
      • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Bobby Orr, not Robert Gordon Orr; Red Kelly, not Leonard Kelly
      • Lists may be submitted via email to hohtopplayers@yahoo.com or via PM to me. Excel format preferred, but not required.
      • Deadline for list submission is Oct 15; this thread will remain open until the deadline
      • Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking
      • Players will be awarded 80 points for a 1st place vote down to 1 point for a 80th place vote
      • An aggregate list of the top 80 defensemen will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points
      • Participants MUST submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible for Round 2
    2. Round 2
      • The top 10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
      • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
      • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
      • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, by email.
      • Top 5 players will be added to the list
      • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 defensemen is obtained
      • The number of players available for discussion at once may increase from 10 as we move down the list, depending on the closeness of the aggregate list put together in Round 1
  4. Quality Assurance
    • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
    • The submitter of a questionable list will be given an opportunity to defend or justify any selection under question or to correct errors and resubmit.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-07-2011 at 02:15 PM.
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Old
08-25-2011, 07:36 PM
  #2
overpass
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Here's the list of defensemen inducted into the HHOF. Most of these players should be contenders for the list.

It doesn't include active and recently retired players, of course.

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08-25-2011, 08:31 PM
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vecens24
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Just out of curiosity, what is the point of not including guys like Lidstrom etc.?

I'm debating on participating and wondering why we're not doing that.

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08-25-2011, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Just out of curiosity, what is the point of not including guys like Lidstrom etc.?

I'm debating on participating and wondering why we're not doing that.
Huh???

"Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based on what they already did".

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08-25-2011, 08:35 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Just out of curiosity, what is the point of not including guys like Lidstrom etc.?

I'm debating on participating and wondering why we're not doing that.
You must have misread part of the OP; Lidstrom is definitely eligible.

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08-25-2011, 08:37 PM
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vecens24
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Okay I'm a moron. Carry on.

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08-25-2011, 08:45 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I compiled a list of every defenseman drafted in the first 11 Rounds of the last All Time Draft. All 140 of them. Here it is in alphabetical order.

Disclaimer: I am posting this strictly as a reference. You may rank any defenseman who you like on your list, whether he appears here or not. You don't even have to look at this list if you don't want to! But it might be useful as a starting point for research or to skim over when you've finished your list to make sure you didn't forget someone. Or maybe not.

Taffy Abel
Bill Barilko
Bob Baun
Rob Blake
Leo Boivin
Butch Bouchard
Georges “Buck” Boucher
Ray Bourque
Carl Brewer
Dave Burrows
Harry Cameron
Randy Carlyle
Zdeno Chara
Chris Chelios
King Clancy
Dit Clapper*
Sprague Cleghorn
Neil Colville*
Paul Coffey
Bert Corbeau
Art Coulter
Lionel Conacher
Llyod Cook
Jack Crawford
Vitaly Davydov
Hap Day
Eric Desjardins
Art Duncan
Red Dutton
Pat Egan
Viacheslav Fetisov
Ferm Flaman
Adam Foote
Bill Gadsby
Herb Gardiner
Eddie Gerard
Bob Goldham
Sergei Gonchar
Ebbie Goodfellow*
Mike Grant
Ted Green
Si Griffis
Bill Hajt
Joe Hall
Glen Harmon
Terry Harper
Ted Harris
Craig Hartsburg
Doug Harvey
Derian Hatcher
Ott Heller
Lionel Hitchman
Flash Hollett
Red Horner
Phil Housley
Mark Howe
Harry Howell
Tim Horton
Eduard Ivanov
Ching Johnson
Moose Johnson
Tom Johnson
Alexei Kasatonov
Red Kelly*
Vladimir Konstantinov
Viktor Kuzkin
Rod Langway
Jacques Laperriere
Guy Lapointe
Reed Larson
Brian Leetch
Nicklas Lidstrom
Kevin Lowe
Vladimir Lutchenko
Al MacInnis
Sylvio Mantha
Bucko McDonald
Brad McCrimmon
Doug Mohns*
Ken Morrow
Gus Mortson
Larry Murphy
Jim Neilson
Scott Niedermayer
Reg Noble*
Bobby Orr
Brad Park
Frank Patrick
Lester Patrick
Stefan Persson
Pierre Pilote
Barclay Plager
Didier Pitre*
Frantisek Pospisil
Denis Potvin
Babe Pratt
Chris Pronger
Marcel Pronovost
Harvey Pulford
Bill Quackenbush
Alexander Ragulin
Brian Rafalski
Rob Ramage
Mike Ramsey
Ken Reardon
Paul Reinhart
Leo Reise, Jr.
Larry Robinson
Art Ross
Borje Salming
Ulf Samuelsson
Serge Savard
Jim Schoenfeld
Earl Seibert
Eddie Shore
Babe Siebert*
Bullet Joe Simpson
Nikolai Sologubov
Dollard St. Laurent
Allan Stanley
Pat Stapleton
Wally Stanowski
Scott Stevens
Black Jack Stewart
Hod Stuart
Jan Suchy
Gary Suter
Lennart Svedberg
Jean-Guy Talbot
Jimmy Thomson
Jean Claude Tremblay
Carol Vadnais
Valeri Vasiliev
Elmer “Moose” Vasko
Jimmy Watson
Cy Wentworth
Bill White
Doug Wilson
Sergei Zubov

*Also has significant accomplishments as a forward

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Old
08-25-2011, 08:50 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I'm sure many of you know this already, but a quick and easy way to get the cliff notes on a player's career is to google his name with the word "legends" after it. This will provide links to both a player's Legends of Hockey profile (the HHOF's official site, has profiles of every player who played in the NHL or is inducted into the HHOF) or Joe Pelletier's blog called Greatest Hockey Legends. Pelletier has information on many of the non-NHL Europeans.

Example, to find some brief info on Jan Suchy, google, "Jan Suchy legends"

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Old
08-25-2011, 08:53 PM
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Hockey Outsider
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I'm posting this for reference purposes only. It's a list of each defenseman who finished top five in Norris trophy voting at least three times during their career.

Obviously this doesn't take into account many important factors (i.e. any accomplishments prior to the first Norris trophy in 1954; playoffs; international tournaments; non-NHL players; quality of competition; etc). Still, if you're aware of the limitations of the data it may be useful.

Player First Second Third Fourth Fifth TOP FIVE
Ray Bourque 5 6 4 4 0 19
Nicklas Lidstrom 7 3 1 1 0 12
Paul Coffey 3 2 1 1 4 11
Bobby Orr 8 0 1 0 0 9
Doug Harvey** 7 1 0 1 0 9
Pierre Pilote 3 3 0 2 0 8
Larry Robinson 2 1 3 1 1 8
Chris Chelios 3 2 1 1 0 7
Denis Potvin 3 2 1 1 0 7
Brad Park 0 6 0 1 0 7
Bill Gadsby** 0 3 2 1 1 7
Borje Salming 0 2 2 2 1 7
Scott Stevens 0 2 1 2 2 7
Chris Pronger 1 0 3 1 2 7
Brian Leetch 2 0 1 1 2 6
Al MacInnis 1 3 2 0 0 6
Jacques Laperriere 1 1 0 2 2 6
Tim Horton 0 2 2 2 0 6
Guy Lapointe 0 1 1 2 2 6
Rod Langway 2 0 1 0 2 5
Rob Blake 1 0 2 1 1 5
Marcel Pronovost 0 1 2 0 2 5
JC Tremblay 0 1 1 1 2 5
Fern Flaman 0 0 3 0 2 5
Zdeno Chara 1 1 2 1 0 5
Red Kelly** 1 2 1 0 0 4
Scott Niedermayer 1 2 0 0 1 4
Doug Wilson 1 0 1 2 0 4
Mark Howe 0 3 0 0 1 4
Larry Murphy 0 0 2 1 1 4
Sergei Gonchar 0 0 0 3 1 4
Phil Housley 0 0 1 0 3 4
Serge Savard 0 0 0 1 3 4
Tom Johnson 1 0 0 1 1 3
Carl Brewer 0 1 1 1 0 3
Bill White 0 0 3 0 0 3
Pat Stapleton 0 0 1 2 0 3

** Played a portion of their career prior to the first Norris trophy in 1953-54

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08-25-2011, 09:01 PM
  #10
Hawkey Town 18
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If we make our lists in Excel do you want the last name and first name in different cells or the full name in one cell?

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08-25-2011, 09:04 PM
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steve141
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Thanks for keeping the ball rolling. Some questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
[*]Final voting will occur for two (2) days, by email.
What did we agree on - vote for all ten, vote for top 5, top 6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
[*]In the event that two players are tied after Round 2, the higher spot will be awarded to the player with the most top votes (1st, then 2nd, etc.)
I know this is a common way of doing it, but I dislike it, as it rewards the outlier voters. Assume there are five voters. If player A gets 10, 3, 3, 2, 2 (=20) points from the voters and player B gets 5, 4, 4, 4, 3 (also =20) is it really reasonable to conclude that player A is better? The more likely explanation is that one voter really overvalued player A.

If the players are really that close in the voting, we should try to go with the consensus view, not the outlier. I'd rather see the exact opposite tie breaker - if two players are tied, award the spot to the player with the least top votes of the two. That will mean that the player that has the broadest support will get the top spot.

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08-25-2011, 09:24 PM
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Is this the thread to post requests for information in? If so, here is some information I would really like to have to help me in the ranking.
  • A list of scoring finishes compared to other defencemen, i.e. how many times was each defenceman the leading defenceman scorer, how many times in the top 2, in the top 3, top 5 and top 10.

  • Some attempt at adjusted scoring for defencemen. I don't think it makes sense to look at the adjusted scoring numbers for defencemen that we have so far, since the adjustments are primarily based on the scoring levels of the forwards in the league. (E.g. the 43-44 season and the 81-82 season had similar overall scoring levels, but only two defencemen scored more than 35 points in 43-44 whereas 40 defencemen scored more than 35 in 81-82. Clearly looking just at the overall league scoring level is not a good indicator of defenceman scoring)

Is there anyone who has something like this or knows how to construct it?


Last edited by steve141: 08-25-2011 at 09:31 PM.
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Old
08-25-2011, 09:42 PM
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overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
If we make our lists in Excel do you want the last name and first name in different cells or the full name in one cell?
Full name in one cell is probably what most people will do and is fine. Can work with either.

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08-25-2011, 09:49 PM
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this is way too daunting for me to actually make a list but definitely looking forward to following the discussion

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Old
08-26-2011, 04:22 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
I'm posting this for reference purposes only. It's a list of each defenseman who finished top five in Norris trophy voting at least three times during their career.
Thanks, here is a list of each defenceman who got voted to the end of season All Star Team. This covers all seasons from 1930-1931 up to and including the 2010-2011 season.

PlayerFirst teamSecond teamTotal
Raymond Bourque13619
Nicklas Lidstrom10212
Doug Harvey10111
Earl Seibert4610
Bobby Orr819
Eddie Shore718
Red Kelly628
Pierre Pilote538
Paul Coffey448
Brad Park527
Chris Chelios527
Denis Potvin527
Al MacInnis437
Bill Gadsby347
Larry Robinson336
Tim Horton336
Borje Salming156
Bill Quackenbush325
Jack Stewart325
Ken Reardon235
Zdeno Chara235
Brian Leetch235
Scott Stevens235
Dit Clapper314
Butch Bouchard314
Scott Niedermayer314
Ching Johnson224
Jacques Laperriere224
King Clancy224
Marcel Pronovost224
Carl Brewer134
Guy Lapointe134
Rob Blake134
Chris Pronger134
Art Coulter044
Babe Siebert303
Mark Howe303
Ebbie Goodfellow213
Rod Langway213
Lionel Conacher123
Doug Wilson123
Fern Flaman033
Larry Murphy033
Bill White033
Pat Stapleton033
Allan Stanley033
Mike Green202
J.C. Tremblay112
Babe Pratt112
Jack Crawford112
Flash Hollett112
Tom Johnson112
Eric Desjardins022
Jimmy Thomson022
Sergei Gonchar022
Moose Vasko022
Dan Boyle022
Glen Harmon022
Leo Reise022
Sylvio Mantha022
Jean-Guy Talbot101
Dion Phaneuf101
Duncan Keith101
Gus Mortson101
Harry Howell101
Randy Carlyle101
Sandis Ozolinsh101
Shea Weber101
Tom Anderson101
Wally Stanowski101
Derian Hatcher011
Brian Engblom011
Cy Wentworth011
Gary Suter011
Al Iafrate011
Barry Ashbee011
Bob Goldham011
Bryan McCabe011
Brad McCrimmon011
Brian Campbell011
Bucko McDonald011
Drew Doughty011
Hy Buller011
Jim Neilson011
Jim Schoenfeld011
Lubomir Visnovsky011
Neil Colville011
Ott Heller011
Pat Egan011
Phil Housley011
Serge Savard011
Sergei Zubov011
Ted Green011
Ted Harris011
Vladimir Konstantinov011

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Old
08-26-2011, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Obviously this doesn't take into account many important factors (i.e. any accomplishments prior to the first Norris trophy in 1954; playoffs; international tournaments; non-NHL players; quality of competition; etc). Still, if you're aware of the limitations of the data it may be useful.
Here's an attempt at compiling a list of Retroactive Norris Trophy awards.

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Old
08-26-2011, 07:03 AM
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I feel pretty good about defensemen from 1910 or so onwards, but could use additional information on players from the ~25 years before that. Iain?

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08-26-2011, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I feel pretty good about defensemen from 1910 or so onwards, but could use additional information on players from the ~25 years before that. Iain?
Did they even have hockey then?

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08-26-2011, 07:29 AM
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Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I feel pretty good about defensemen from 1910 or so onwards, but could use additional information on players from the ~25 years before that. Iain?
I'm around if you want to discuss such players. Try and stop me.

I'm still busy writing for the Puck Prospectus annual at the moment, but I should be able to chip in some info on early defencemen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Did they even have hockey then?
27 years if you want to back to the first Winter Carnival tournament, which of course you should want to do. Who wouldn't?

I've seen information on exhibition games between organized clubs as far back as 1881. Montreal clubs probably played each other a few years before that.

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08-26-2011, 07:50 AM
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I'm really starting to question whether Shore should be ahead of Bourque and Lidstrom, should be an interesting debate

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08-26-2011, 07:53 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Here's an attempt at compiling a list of Retroactive Norris Trophy awards.
It's a pretty limited attempt, IMO. There were quite a few seasons there where the defenseman who finished 1st in All Star voting was not awarded the "retro Norris." Bill Quackenbush, for example, finished first in All-Star voting twice but Jack Stewart got the retro Norris (I'm going off memory; could have the details wrong). Pretty sure the full All Star voting records (available in the sticky on the top of this thread) weren't available to the authors of Ultimate Hockey when it was written.

Don't get me wrong - it's a useful resource; just need to recognize its limitations.

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08-26-2011, 08:02 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Thanks for keeping the ball rolling. Some questions:



What did we agree on - vote for all ten, vote for top 5, top 6?
Vote for all 10.

Quote:
I know this is a common way of doing it, but I dislike it, as it rewards the outlier voters. Assume there are five voters. If player A gets 10, 3, 3, 2, 2 (=20) points from the voters and player B gets 5, 4, 4, 4, 3 (also =20) is it really reasonable to conclude that player A is better? The more likely explanation is that one voter really overvalued player A.

If the players are really that close in the voting, we should try to go with the consensus view, not the outlier. I'd rather see the exact opposite tie breaker - if two players are tied, award the spot to the player with the least top votes of the two. That will mean that the player that has the broadest support will get the top spot.
What about low outliers?

I was hoping someone else would answer this one, because I honestly don't know what to say. I copied and pasted this part from the rules for the last top 100 project. This seems like it could turn into a long discussion, so probably best to move to the procedure thread. Keep in mind that with 20+ voters, ties are going to be rare.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-26-2011 at 08:11 AM.
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Old
08-26-2011, 08:15 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I was hoping someone else would answer this one, because I honestly don't know what to say. This seems like it could turn into a long discussion, so probably best to move to the procedure thread. Keep in mind that with 20+ voters, ties are going to be rare.
I'd say you wait until the situation arises. And if it arises I believe the best possible solution is to just call it a tie. Either counting 1st place votes or counting other kinds of votes is too random with so many voters casting so many votes.

As long as it's not in like, the top-5 or something I really don't mind at all that two players would be tied. It rather reflects on the complex nature of rating hockey players.

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Old
08-26-2011, 08:23 AM
  #24
Der Kaiser
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A personal note as I've started thinking about how I would make an initial list. It is VERY difficult to rank the top 80 defensemen ever. Once I got past 30 it really starts being troublesome, I can't imagine trying to separate say, #75 from #74. Does anyone have any tips? Do you guys divide your lists into blocks and then rank players individually whitin blocks? I'm finding this way too complex.

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Old
08-26-2011, 08:30 AM
  #25
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
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A personal note as I've started thinking about how I would make an initial list. It is VERY difficult to rank the top 80 defensemen ever. Once I got past 30 it really starts being troublesome, I can't imagine trying to separate say, #75 from #74. Does anyone have any tips? Do you guys divide your lists into blocks and then rank players individually whitin blocks? I'm finding this way too complex.
I haven't started this one, but I did create my personal list of the top 50 defensemen ever awhile back.

I basically did what you said. I ranked names until it stopped being easy anymore, somewhere around 30-35. Then I collected a bunch of names that I thought were in the next tier and did my best to pick the best, add him to my list and repeat. Ended up moving around a lot of these guys once they were added. This got me into the 40s, then I picked another group of guys. Ended up with a list of 50 plus 7-8 Honorable Mentions... heh.

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