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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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Old
08-26-2011, 03:56 AM
  #151
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You keep bringing up the battles that they lost......Savard, Bergeron and Horton. However, winning the war is more important that losing a battle or two.
for this single win, they've been losing "wars" for close to 40 years... lets not act is if their formula is THE way to go or start acting as if they never lost "wars" or something...

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08-26-2011, 09:22 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for this single win, they've been losing "wars" for close to 40 years... lets not act is if their formula is THE way to go or start acting as if they never lost "wars" or something...
Again, moot point. We have a pacifist for a GM. Your side will be happy as long as Gauthier is in charge.

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08-26-2011, 10:27 AM
  #153
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I don't disagree with you I just feel a lot of people don't acknowledge how much easier it is to get a guy who is on the "prime fence" than a guy entering his prime. It's easier said than done and I think considering what team we are and the fact that many UFA's probably don't want to sign here over a place like say LA or Vancouver, signing Cole was a fairly smart move. Of course it can backfire but if it doesn't we'll be golden. Plus Cole has done nothing to suggest being past prime just yet. I think people are jumping to conclusions a little bit. There's no magical number where prime ends. Plus if I'm not mistaking Chiarelli was going after Cole too. People seem to think he's a pretty smart GM, sure we outbid him but we got a player he intended to get.

But overall I don't disagree with your analysis that it would've been better to get a younger player, with how teams are smarter with UFA these days though it just doesn't seem very easy to pull it off. Some people think Columbus is nuts for trading for and signing Wiz to his deal. How many other solid offensive D on the market just entering their prime were there? Deals can be made but honestly easier said than done. I think it's a solid move by CBJ personally.
It's impossible to pull off. That's the whole point. You have to get those players before they are established. Getting prospects and picks and developing them before they become stars is pretty much the only way to get them. You can try to rip off some team in a trade (like SJ did with Thornton) but it's unlikely to happen.

Teams who have established young power forwards will not let them go. That's why you won't see those guys become free agents, they're worth the money. Nobody is going to let Stamkos walk for free... Gomez on the other hand? Sure. Free agents are generally made up of guys who are over the hill or want more money than their worth. That's why it's not a great idea to build your team that way. That's the cycle we've been in for a long time now.

When you build with FAs you're getting stuck with the leftovers like Eric Cole, Gomez and Gionta. Decent but not great players, won't lead you anywhere and aren't worth the money.
At least this time though, they got a physical player.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 08-26-2011 at 10:34 AM.
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08-26-2011, 11:00 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for this single win, they've been losing "wars" for close to 40 years... lets not act is if their formula is THE way to go or start acting as if they never lost "wars" or something...
Yes but in the last 40 years we have had Risebrough ,Chartraw , Robinson , Nilan , Kordic ,Ewen and a host of others. We have no one who is anywhere near these guys.

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08-26-2011, 11:02 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Again, moot point. We have a pacifist for a GM. Your side will be happy as long as Gauthier is in charge.
This is at least the second time I have read you using the word pacifist, you really need to learn the meaning of that word. It has no relevance to hockey whatsoever.

pac·i·fism (ps-fzm) n.

1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.
2.
a. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
b. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.

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08-26-2011, 11:22 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
This is at least the second time I have read you using the word pacifist, you really need to learn the meaning of that word. It has no relevance to hockey whatsoever.

pac·i·fism (ps-fzm) n.

1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.
2.
a. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
b. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.
You could have saved the time and effort providing the definition. I know exactly what the word means.

But, to be gracious to you, Gauthier does not believe in "violence as a means of resolving disputes".

Fighting is violent. Subban was constantly harrassed by Lucic and Horton. No one stood up for Subban to "resolve that dispute" between them in a violent manner. In plain English, no one on the Habs stood up to Lucic and fought him or Horton.

And, Gauthier had the entire offseason to resolve that glaring need. But, he is not a believer in violence to settle disputes. He is a pacifist. He is content to have the bullies in the NHL continue to do whatever they want without any retaliation from the team.

Maybe I should just call him a *****.

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08-26-2011, 12:02 PM
  #157
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What harassment are you even talking about?

And why do you not think Subban cannot protect himself. I seem to remember Subban absolutely obliterating Krejci in the corner. No one from the Bruins "stood up" for him.



Or even better yet, the hit on Marchand:



Horton comes over, and Subban ***** slaps the guy.

Yet in another argument someone was pointing to the "big bad bruins protecting Marchand from punching Sedin in the face by keeping the Canucks honest."

Not seeing much of that there. This is the problem with the "other side" in this debate, you take things way too extreme and your arguments are filled with fallacies and contradictions.

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08-26-2011, 12:58 PM
  #158
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The Habs have added two very physical players, Cole and Yemelin, to replace two less physical players, Pouliot and Hamrlik. Neither Cole nor Yemelin is a noted pugilist. So what? They'll make things tough for opponents and they might put one or two out of action by banging into them. I think Yemelin in particular would enjoy doing that. Must the Habs look for another BGL-like über-goon to disappoint us?

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08-26-2011, 01:39 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
With a team loaded with talent and skill and a lack of fighters, the Habs should be able to prove the rest of the GM's as being grossly wrong with regard to fighting.

But what if we dont? Then what?
The 4 teams with the least amount of fighting majors in the NHL last season, and their final position in conference standings: Detroit (3rd), Nashville (5th), Tampa (5th) and Phoenix (6th).
http://www.hockeyfights.com/leaders/teams/1/reg2011

Seems to me the point has already been proven.

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08-26-2011, 01:46 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
The 4 teams with the least amount of fighting majors in the NHL last season, and their final position in conference standings: Detroit (3rd), Nashville (5th), Tampa (5th) and Phoenix (6th).
http://www.hockeyfights.com/leaders/teams/1/reg2011

Seems to me the point has already been proven.
You can go further and post the following stat...out of the 10 teams that had the least fighting majors in the league....8 made the playoffs(Montreal, Buffalo, Canucks, Red Wings, Predators, Tampa, Coyotes and the Hawks 4 of these teams lost in the first round...50%).

The top 10 teams with most fighting majors only 4 made the playoffs (Ducks, Bruins, Rangers and Penguins...3 of these teams lost in the first round...75%).

Or you can spilt it in half...the top 15 teams with the most fighting majors...only 8 made....the bottom 15 teams with the least fighting majors....only 8 made.

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08-26-2011, 02:01 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
The 4 teams with the least amount of fighting majors in the NHL last season, and their final position in conference standings: Detroit (3rd), Nashville (5th), Tampa (5th) and Phoenix (6th).
http://www.hockeyfights.com/leaders/teams/1/reg2011

Seems to me the point has already been proven.
What team had the 2nd most majors ? The Cup Winners perhaps.

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08-26-2011, 02:02 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
What harassment are you even talking about?

And why do you not think Subban cannot protect himself. I seem to remember Subban absolutely obliterating Krejci in the corner. No one from the Bruins "stood up" for him.



Or even better yet, the hit on Marchand:



Horton comes over, and Subban ***** slaps the guy.

Yet in another argument someone was pointing to the "big bad bruins protecting Marchand from punching Sedin in the face by keeping the Canucks honest."

Not seeing much of that there. This is the problem with the "other side" in this debate, you take things way too extreme and your arguments are filled with fallacies and contradictions.
Let me guess. You will be the first one posting on this forum that Subban should not be fighting because he might get injured.

Enjoy this upcoming season. We will see more of the same from the other teams. You and Gauthier can just sit back and smile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
The 4 teams with the least amount of fighting majors in the NHL last season, and their final position in conference standings: Detroit (3rd), Nashville (5th), Tampa (5th) and Phoenix (6th).
http://www.hockeyfights.com/leaders/teams/1/reg2011

Seems to me the point has already been proven.
We will see at the end of the season, eh?

Not those teams. The Montreal Canadiens and whether we have another futile season.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 08-26-2011 at 02:20 PM. Reason: merged
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08-26-2011, 02:25 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by DougHarvey View Post
What team had the 2nd most majors ? The Cup Winners perhaps.
Its not like they drastically outplayed every team they played against. They won 3 game 7 series and barely got passed the bolts and the habs and were very fortunate along the way to play teams with various injuries to key players. The bruins lost one key playeer the entire playoffs and it was in the last round.

I'd underrstand the argument if the bruins won because of their toughness, but they didn't, they won because they had good depth defensive play and good fortune.

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08-26-2011, 02:28 PM
  #164
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I think the team toughness is there for montreal. The smallest guy on this team goes to the greasiest areas and competes.

Where it starts looking bad is when the team gets lured into a fight contest, but I dont necessarily equate that to toughness.

Toughness is about competing for your space, getting your nose dirty, and not getting intimidated. When you look at the newer faces in the organization such as Cole, Emelin, Subban, and Pacioretty, then I think you are on the right track.

You can argue about overall size in the top 6 being a flaw... although it should be less of a flaw this year, but I dont question the team's toughness.

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08-26-2011, 02:30 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by DougHarvey View Post
What team had the 2nd most majors ? The Cup Winners perhaps.

So in your world 1 exemple > several exemples. Yeah, right...

Logic where are you ????

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08-26-2011, 02:34 PM
  #166
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What team had the 2nd most majors ? The Cup Winners perhaps.
What about the year before that? The cup champs, the Hawks, were ranked 21st. The year before that it was the Penguins, and they were ranked 23rd. The year before that you say? Well the Red Wings won the cup while being dead last in fighting majors. 2006 the Hurricanes won the cup with only 17 fighting majors, good for 28th in the league.

But like I said earlier, people always want to emulate the most recent cup winners, as if that's a sure fire way to win the cup. The fact post lockout, there are only two cup winners who ranked higher than 20th for fighting majors (Boston last year, who came in second, and Anaheim in 2007 who came in first) just goes to show that being able to drop the gloves doesn't necessarily get you anywhere. Those teams also had some talented players both years they won it. So to say that toughness was the key to their success is pretty ridiculous.


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08-26-2011, 02:42 PM
  #167
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So in your world 1 exemple > several exemples. Yeah, right...

Logic where are you ????
I was pointing out that he showed teams 3 thru 6 as an example and didnt mention the Bruins in 2nd.

We dont need goons , but a few guys who can drop the gloves, intiidate the opponent would be beneficial to the overall team.

How many of you would not want a Shawn Thornton , Derek Dorsett or a Steve Ott on this team.

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08-26-2011, 02:50 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by DougHarvey View Post
I was pointing out that he showed teams 3 thru 6 as an example and didnt mention the Bruins in 2nd.
Maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. I was actually stating that the 4 teams that fought the least were all winning teams, in response to a comment implying that winning without fighters would be breaking new ground.

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08-26-2011, 02:50 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You could have saved the time and effort providing the definition. I know exactly what the word means.

But, to be gracious to you, Gauthier does not believe in "violence as a means of resolving disputes".

Fighting is violent. Subban was constantly harrassed by Lucic and Horton. No one stood up for Subban to "resolve that dispute" between them in a violent manner. In plain English, no one on the Habs stood up to Lucic and fought him or Horton.

And, Gauthier had the entire offseason to resolve that glaring need. But, he is not a believer in violence to settle disputes. He is a pacifist. He is content to have the bullies in the NHL continue to do whatever they want without any retaliation from the team.

Maybe I should just call him a *****.
I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. I distinctly remember Lucic and Horton ganging up on Subban, with Gill coming in faster than he's ever skated in his entire life to help his teammate.

Even that 8-6 game where the Habs got "spanked," they pretty much never backed from the scrums. They didn't look intimidated in the least bit really. They were still jumping into scrums without thinking twice, all of them. Just watch some replays.

And I know what you're gonna say. You're gonna talk about Hammer, Spacek and Pyatt getting their **** rocked at the end of the game. The thing about that is, that whole scrum started because Moen was sticking up for Plekanec when Ference was trying to trip him (Gasp! I know! I though that never happened on this soft Habs team) It's also pretty obvious that Hamrlik is the one who decided to taunt Thornton, which got the whole thing rolling. Why he would try to piss off someone who has something like 300 career fights is beyond me.

Just because Marchand slapped around the world's most gutless player (Sedin) and then won the cup, doesn't mean he's tough, nor does it mean that it's a guaranteed recipe for success.

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08-26-2011, 03:05 PM
  #170
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I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. I distinctly remember Lucic and Horton ganging up on Subban, with Gill coming in faster than he's ever skated in his entire life to help his teammate.

Even that 8-6 game where the Habs got "spanked," they pretty much never backed from the scrums. They didn't look intimidated in the least bit really. They were still jumping into scrums without thinking twice, all of them. Just watch some replays.

And I know what you're gonna say. You're gonna talk about Hammer, Spacek and Pyatt getting their **** rocked at the end of the game. The thing about that is, that whole scrum started because Moen was sticking up for Plekanec when Ference was trying to trip him (Gasp! I know! I though that never happened on this soft Habs team) It's also pretty obvious that Hamrlik is the one who decided to taunt Thornton, which got the whole thing rolling. Why he would try to piss off someone who has something like 300 career fights is beyond me.

Just because Marchand slapped around the world's most gutless player (Sedin) and then won the cup, doesn't mean he's tough, nor does it mean that it's a guaranteed recipe for success.
I think a lot of people misinterpret what happened in the Cup finals. It seems to me that the Canucks were deliberately trying to draw penalties from the post whistle scrums which had the potential to be a good strategy against a team that loves them like Boston does. The snag was that the referees weren't buying it. Why wasn't Sedin punching back? Because he desperately wanted a man advantage, not that a man who makes a living cycling the puck was scared to face off against a yappy guy that he has 4 inches on.

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08-26-2011, 03:20 PM
  #171
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I think a lot of people misinterpret what happened in the Cup finals. It seems to me that the Canucks were deliberately trying to draw penalties from the post whistle scrums which had the potential to be a good strategy against a team that loves them like Boston does. The snag was that the referees weren't buying it. Why wasn't Sedin punching back? Because he desperately wanted a man advantage, not that a man who makes a living cycling the puck was scared to face off against a yappy guy that he has 4 inches on.
The thing about that situation is that the game was over. The Bruins had a 3 goal lead with about a minute left to play. Cross checking Marchand in the face would have been a much better tactic going into next game for Sedin and the Canucks.

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08-26-2011, 03:25 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Let me guess. You will be the first one posting on this forum that Subban should not be fighting because he might get injured.

Enjoy this upcoming season. We will see more of the same from the other teams. You and Gauthier can just sit back and smile.



We will see at the end of the season, eh?

Not those teams. The Montreal Canadiens and whether we have another futile season.
And then we'll call you a psychic for knowing that the habs didn't win the cup in the 2011-12 season out of a possible 28 other teams, you should try your luck at gambling.

I guess we'll all be eating some serious crow, hey you got the winning lotto #'s for this upcoming week?

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08-26-2011, 03:30 PM
  #173
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The thing about that situation is that the game was over. The Bruins had a 3 goal lead with about a minute left to play. Cross checking Marchand in the face would have been a much better tactic going into next game for Sedin and the Canucks.
I agree, hitting back would have been better but I think there was an overall mentality in Vancouver that they were going to go into scrums looking to get an advantage and it wasn't working for them. Such that even if they couldn't get a penalty drawn to help them then they'd have Boston build such a track record in the official's minds that they'll call other penalties latter. But that didn't work with the mentality the officials had for the series to not call that kind of stuff, so it definitely counts as a failed strategy.

Montreal had that right idea in the playoffs to defend themselves after the whistle but not go looking for trouble.

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08-26-2011, 03:53 PM
  #174
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I really don't understand peoples saying Gauthier don't like toughnesss where this is coming from ?

Last seasons after being intimidated in that well known post Pacioretty game, he add White and Mara to a team that already has Moen, Gill and Wisniewski(and even Pouliot), that's an ok number of physical players and this demonstrate he doesn't hate toughness since he had two players that are able to drop it when necessary after that game.

I think for this season his gamble for the start of the season is wanting to see how a group with Gill, Moen, White, Yemelin (We'll see), Blunden and Woywitka can do. He also has alot of time still to sign a guy like Winchester or Mair. Also during the season he can do minor change like last season (a Henry or Conboy or getting a low cost guy like Carkner etc.). Toughness is never a problem at the start of a season.


Last edited by Forsead: 08-26-2011 at 04:02 PM.
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08-26-2011, 04:09 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Let me guess. You will be the first one posting on this forum that Subban should not be fighting because he might get injured.

Enjoy this upcoming season. We will see more of the same from the other teams. You and Gauthier can just sit back and smile..
You would be guessing wrong. I love seeing Subban get in fights.

And this is another thing, whenever someone brings any real tangible evidence to the table against you guys, you guys ignore it. You then proceed to continue to provide anecdotal and trivial evidence to back up your ridiculous arguments. Your discourse is embarrassing.

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