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Old
08-26-2011, 02:01 PM
  #51
Ed Wood
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Zibanejad and Filatov at 6th overall is not high enough for you?

haha, I'm saying this because I'm sure you look at where those prospects were drafted as your main argument for determing the potential of a prospect. For you, the only Elite players are the guys drafted top-3 like Toews, Kane, Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Hall and Tavares.

But what about all the other guys? What was the draft position of those guys?

Marty St-Louis
Corey Perry
Ryan Getzlaf
Jarome Iginla
Teemu Selanne
Henrik Zetterberg
Brad Richards
Claude Giroux
Ryan Kesler
Loui Eriksson
Anze Kopitar
Patrick Sharp
Mike Ribeiro
Alex Tanguay
Daniel Briere
Lubomir Visnovsky
Jeff Carter


I could go on, but those are guys from the top-30 in scoring last year. And let's not forget about Daniel Alfredsson

So, you could be right of course, all Sens prospects could end up being disappointments, but what people are optimistic is the bumber of chances to develop gems. Almost never, a prospect drafted outside of the top-3 is considered like a future Elite NHL player. Things don't stay linear with time, the universe moves and things changes. Some hockey players rise, while some others fall.

While I agree that accumulating as many picks as possible is the right way to go my pessimism is predicated on the fact that we actually have fewer prospects than we could have had Bryan Murray not been trading away picks in 2009 and 2010 when we should have been acquiring picks instead. In 2009 we might have acquired someone like Matt Duchene in the draft had we simply finished the year with Craig Hartsburg coaching and resisted trading a first round pick for Campoli only to worsen our draft position.

We waited until our Stanley Cup veterans lost too much value instead of cleaning house in a timely fashion and maximizing the return on those players. I simply don't see Bryan Murray and Eugene Melnyk as being capable of exercizing the patience now required to return this team to elite status.

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08-26-2011, 02:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
While I agree that accumulating as many picks as possible is the right way to go my pessimism is predicated on the fact that we actually have fewer prospects than we could have had Bryan Murray not been trading away picks in 2009 and 2010 when we should have been acquiring picks instead. In 2009 we might have acquired someone like Matt Duchene in the draft had we simply finished the year with Craig Hartsburg coaching and resisted trading a first round pick for Campoli only to worsen our draft position.

We waited until our Stanley Cup veterans lost too much value instead of cleaning house in a timely fashion and maximizing the return on those players. I simply don't see Bryan Murray and Eugene Melnyk as being capable of exercizing the patience now required to return this team to elite status.
What the heck are you smoking...Melnyk and BM not having the patience required to go through a rebuild. Why would Melnyk extend BM if he didn't think that he'd have the patience to go through a rebuild. So you're saying getting a 1st and a possible 2nd for a 2nd line center is bad return? Getting a 2nd rounder for Kelly having one of his worst years...please stop trolling.

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08-26-2011, 02:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
While I agree that accumulating as many picks as possible is the right way to go my pessimism is predicated on the fact that we actually have fewer prospects than we could have had Bryan Murray not been trading away picks in 2009 and 2010 when we should have been acquiring picks instead. In 2009 we might have acquired someone like Matt Duchene in the draft had we simply finished the year with Craig Hartsburg coaching and resisted trading a first round pick for Campoli only to worsen our draft position.

We waited until our Stanley Cup veterans lost too much value instead of cleaning house in a timely fashion and maximizing the return on those players. I simply don't see Bryan Murray and Eugene Melnyk as being capable of exercizing the patience now required to return this team to elite status.
While this is true that we've spent some draft picks in recent years, you have to realize the context too.

The team was trying to win with the core, and during Alfredsson's last years.

So, do you mind if I LOL about this :

" we actually have fewer prospects than we could have had "

I see that you are new around here (and maybe not a Sens fan, I've seen the rain before) but do you have an idea of what the Sens prospects pool looks like? We will probably have 4 prospects in HF top-50, and a few more closing in. We also have enough prospects to make 2 decent NHL pools (if you mix them up together)... Our depht is phenomenal at this point and prospects like Daugavins won't even get a true chance on the team because of it.

The top-end of our prospects is a question mark, but I have news for you. It is the same for every prospects pools. That's why it's called "prospects" and not "future NHL players"

Basically, we've traded :

- A late 1st (26th overall) for Campoli (solid cheap young puck-mover, who got traded for a 2nd two years later). So the global cost of this trade is the difference between the 1st and the 2nd. Oh and we also got Potulny back, which was key for the Calder Cup win. Not bad for Campoli which was very helpful for cap purposes.

- A 2nd : Matt Cullen, very good acquisition, but didn't pay because the team didn't advance in the playoffs

- Another 2nd : Andy Sutton, very good acquisition, but didn't pay because the team didn't advance in the playoffs

- A 3rd : used with our 1st to move up and draft Erik Karlsson. Do you regret it?

- A 1st : to get David Rundblad. Don't like that trade?

- A 3rd : to get Filatov. Don't like that gamble?

- A 2nd : used with our 2nd to get another 1st round pick and draft Matt Puempel

But you should probably get informed on how many picks and assets were acquired during that time...

Butler, Winchester, Da Costa, Dziurzinsky, Cannone, a 2nd for Kelly, a 1st and a 3rd for Fisher, a 7th for Kovalev, a 6th for Ruutu, a 2nd for Campoli, a 6th for Auld, a 5th for McGrattan, a 2nd in the Heatley deal, a 1st in the Meszaros deal... and probably a few more I forgot.


It is simply foolish to think that people would have accepted if they "cleaned the house" in 2008 right after being Stanley Cup finalists and start a rebuild. We had coach problems back then, so after Clouston got in, they thought the team could contend again but Heatley decided otherwise and problems started.

Just accept it, every team has to go through this eventually. The Sens had about 10 full years (except the strike year) to win, and came close only once, maybe 2 if you count 2003. This is a larger window of opportunity than most teams get.


Last edited by Xspyrit: 08-26-2011 at 03:01 PM.
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Old
08-26-2011, 03:19 PM
  #54
Ed Wood
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
While this is true that we've spent some draft picks in recent years, you have to realize the context too.

The team was trying to win with the core, and during Alfredsson's last years.

So, do you mind if I LOL about this :

" we actually have fewer prospects than we could have had "

I see that you are new around here (and maybe not a Sens fan, I've seen the rain before) but do you have an idea of what the Sens prospects pool looks like? We will probably have 4 prospects in HF top-50, and a few more closing in. We also have enough prospects to make 2 decent NHL pools (if you mix them up together)... Our depht is phenomenal at this point and prospects like Daugavins won't even get a true chance on the team because of it.

The top-end of our prospects is a question mark, but I have news for you. It is the same for every prospects pools. That's why it's called "prospects" and not "future NHL players"

Basically, we've traded :

- A late 1st (26th overall) for Campoli (solid cheap young puck-mover, who got traded for a 2nd two years later). So the global cost of this trade is the difference between the 1st and the 2nd. Oh and we also got Potulny back, which was key for the Calder Cup win. Not bad for Campoli which was very helpful for cap purposes.

- A 2nd : Matt Cullen, very good acquisition, but didn't pay because the team didn't advance in the playoffs

- Another 2nd : Andy Sutton, very good acquisition, but didn't pay because the team didn't advance in the playoffs

- A 3rd : used with our 1st to move up and draft Erik Karlsson. Do you regret it?

- A 1st : to get David Rundblad. Don't like that trade?

- A 3rd : to get Filatov. Don't like that gamble?

- A 2nd : used with our 2nd to get another 1st round pick and draft Matt Puempel

But you should probably get informed on how many picks and assets were acquired during that time...

Butler, Winchester, Da Costa, Dziurzinsky, Cannone, a 2nd for Kelly, a 1st and a 3rd for Fisher, a 7th for Kovalev, a 6th for Ruutu, a 2nd for Campoli, a 6th for Auld, a 5th for McGrattan, a 2nd in the Heatley deal, a 1st in the Meszaros deal... and probably a few more I forgot.


It is simply foolish to think that people would have accepted if they "cleaned the house" in 2008 right after being Stanley Cup finalists and start a rebuild. We had coach problems back then, so after Clouston got in, they thought the team could contend again but Heatley decided otherwise and problems started.

Just accept it, every team has to go through this eventually. The Sens had about 10 full years (except the strike year) to win, and came close only once, maybe 2 if you count 2003. This is a larger window of opportunity than most teams get.
Six or seven years from now when we are, at best, a middle of the pack team fighting for that final playoff spot you may finally come to realize that Bryan Murray was one truly mediocre General Manager. I knew it the day he traded Meszaros and it couldn't have been driven home more resoundingly when he not only re-signed Chris Phillips but gave him yet another NTC.

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08-26-2011, 04:19 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
Six or seven years from now when we are, at best, a middle of the pack team fighting for that final playoff spot you may finally come to realize that Bryan Murray was one truly mediocre General Manager. I knew it the day he traded Meszaros and it couldn't have been driven home more resoundingly when he not only re-signed Chris Phillips but gave him yet another NTC.
When did Meszaros become a superstar? At the time Meszaros wanted too much money anyways. You wanted Meszaros for 4 million a year?

Phillips was resigned to have a veteran D-Man on our defense to teach the likes of Lee, Cowen, Boro-cop, Gryba.

Just like Gonchar was brought in to help mentor Karlsson, Rundblad. Thats not the only reason they were signed but that was part of it.

I think you just have a hate on for Murray and really have no idea about the prospects. Murray has had a couple mistakes but I'm very happy with Karlsson, and how deep and high end our prospect pool is right now.

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08-26-2011, 04:56 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lehner View Post
When did Meszaros become a superstar? At the time Meszaros wanted too much money anyways. You wanted Meszaros for 4 million a year?

Phillips was resigned to have a veteran D-Man on our defense to teach the likes of Lee, Cowen, Boro-cop, Gryba.

Just like Gonchar was brought in to help mentor Karlsson, Rundblad. Thats not the only reason they were signed but that was part of it.

I think you just have a hate on for Murray and really have no idea about the prospects. Murray has had a couple mistakes but I'm very happy with Karlsson, and how deep and high end our prospect pool is right now.
Meszaros was 22 years of age and had already accumulated 110 NHL points when he was traded. He was voted the best defenseman on the Flyers last year. the first round pick we received was wasted on Campoli but I guess we win the trade because we've still got kuba, right?

If we want a player to teach our young dmen how to cough up the puck every time they handle it then I guess the Phillips re-signing was a stroke of genius as well.


Last edited by Ed Wood: 08-26-2011 at 04:58 PM. Reason: poor grammar
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Old
08-26-2011, 07:18 PM
  #57
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Meszaros was 22 years of age and had already accumulated 110 NHL points when he was traded. He was voted the best defenseman on the Flyers last year. the first round pick we received was wasted on Campoli but I guess we win the trade because we've still got kuba, right?
Meszaros in Tampa Bay:
1st year - 16 points in 52 games
2nd year - 17 points in 81 games

Hes had one good year in 3 years, but hes worth 4 million a season.

Campoli wasnt given away for nothing tho, so it wasn't a complete waste, we received Potulny and a 2nd Rounder, Potulny helped B-Sens win a Calder Cup (which helps a rebuild tremendously), and the 2nd rounder was part of picking Puempel. Kuba may still get us a pick at the deadline if he can even turn it around a little bit.

Quote:
If we want a player to teach our young dmen how to cough up the puck every time they handle it then I guess the Phillips re-signing was a stroke of genius as well.
Phillips had a rough year last year, but the year before he was arguably our best player.

You really need to stop looking at "what have you done for me lately" and look at the player as a whole.

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08-28-2011, 07:24 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
Six or seven years from now when we are, at best, a middle of the pack team fighting for that final playoff spot you may finally come to realize that Bryan Murray was one truly mediocre General Manager. I knew it the day he traded Meszaros and it couldn't have been driven home more resoundingly when he not only re-signed Chris Phillips but gave him yet another NTC.
wow, if you are not a troll, you're really clueless

You criticize Murray for trading Meszaros (for Kuba, a 1st and Picard), who asked 4.0 M$ on freaking RFA years while he re-signed Chris Phillips to a 3.08 M$ contract?

Obviously, we didn't want to re-sign Meszaros at that price (particulary on RFA years). I would have been happy just to let him go rather than re-sign him. Instead, Murray got 3 assets for him.

You realize Corey Perry and Ryan Getzlaf were signed at 5.325 during their RFA years. Only 1.325 more than Meszaros? You're joking right?

Meszaros can only dream of having Chris Phillips career.

And who cares if Phillips has a NTC or not? He is an Ottawa Senator and has always been here to stay, like Alfie. Gosh, people don't even have respect for Phillips, after all he's done here

Get a clue or go back to the Leafs board. It was the last few minutes I have wasted answering to your posts.

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08-28-2011, 10:20 PM
  #59
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In 2009 we might have acquired someone like Matt Duchene in the draft had we simply finished the year with Craig Hartsburg coaching and resisted trading a first round pick for Campoli only to worsen our draft position.
Instead we drafted Cowen, you know that really tall guy who won the memorial cup and calder cup. Hasn't made the NHL yet. How about we let him play a bit before we wish we chose someone else.

And that Campoli pick went on to draft Kyle Palmieri, after being in the hands of 6 teams. You can't play what ifs and might haves, we might not have drafted Alfredsson we might not have made the playoffs for even longer, what if we chose Chara over Redden we might not have gotten to see the Pizza line, what if we drafted Pronger instead of Daigle our defence might have been amazing, what if Yashin wasn't traded, we might not have seen Spezza or Chara play here. What if we never got a team back we might not be on this board.

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08-28-2011, 10:27 PM
  #60
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Instead we drafted Cowen, you know that really tall guy who won the memorial cup and calder cup. Hasn't made the NHL yet. How about we let him play a bit before we wish we chose someone else.

And that Campoli pick went on to draft Kyle Palmieri, after being in the hands of 6 teams. You can't play what ifs and might haves, we might not have drafted Alfredsson we might not have made the playoffs for even longer, what if we chose Chara over Redden we might not have gotten to see the Pizza line, what if we drafted Pronger instead of Daigle our defence might have been amazing, what if Yashin wasn't traded, we might not have seen Spezza or Chara play here. What if we never got a team back we might not be on this board.
Had we not traded for Comrie and Campoli.....we might have drafted Bogosian, Filatov,Bailey, or Hodgeson instead of Karlsson..

Edit: wait that was in 2008....oops

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02-06-2012, 09:54 PM
  #61
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Does Butler still have time to prove that 7th selection, what happened? :-(

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02-07-2012, 07:45 AM
  #62
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When do we redo this list - pretty out of date now.

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02-07-2012, 11:56 AM
  #63
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Not even sure if it's a bad or good thing that our 10th and 11th prospects are playing on the first line.

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02-07-2012, 01:16 PM
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Filatov and butler will drop alot

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02-07-2012, 01:18 PM
  #65
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Filatov and butler will drop alot
Assuming they are part of the org by this time next year, yes.

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02-07-2012, 02:01 PM
  #66
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Going to be a huge jump for J-G Pageau too.

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02-07-2012, 02:20 PM
  #67
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Going to be a huge jump for J-G Pageau too.
And Petersson, Stone.

My top 10.

1.Jakob Silfverberg
2.Mika Zibanejad
3.Robin Lehner
4. Andre Petersson
5. Mark Stone
6. Stefan Noesen
7. Stephane DaCosta
8. Mark Borowiecki
9. Mike Hoffman
10. Shane Prince
11. Matt Puempel


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02-07-2012, 04:16 PM
  #68
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And Petersson, Stone.

My top 10.

1.Jakob Silfverberg
2.Mika Zibanejad
3.Robin Lehner
4. Andre Petersson
5. Mark Stone
6. Stefan Noesen
7. Stephane DaCosta
8. Mark Borowiecki
9. Mike Hoffman
10. Shane Prince
11. Matt Puempel

I think Lehner will fall to around 8-10. he's not having a years where you can say he improve or he's playing great.

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02-07-2012, 04:20 PM
  #69
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I think Lehner will fall to around 8-10. he's not having a years where you can say he improve or he's playing great.
Meh, he's still top 3 in my mind.

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02-07-2012, 04:25 PM
  #70
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I think Lehner will fall to around 8-10. he's not having a years where you can say he improve or he's playing great.
Hard to fall after you've risen to the top like he has. His team is nothing compared to what it was last year and I doubt his skills have just diminished or regressed.

Gotta see how he plays in the NHL at some point.

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02-07-2012, 05:01 PM
  #71
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lol @ DR, Filatov and Butler...

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02-08-2012, 08:57 AM
  #72
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I posted this in the Prospects thread a couple weeks ago. My list as of today :

1-Jakob Silfverberg
2-Mika Zibanejad
3-Robin Lehner
4-Andre Petersson
5-Mark Stone
6-Stefan Noesen
7-Matt Puempel
8-Stephane Da Costa
9-Shane Prince
10-Mark Borowiecki
11-Nikita Filatov
12-Patrick Wiercioch
13-Jean-Gabriel Pageau
14-Fredrik Claesson
15-Mike Hoffman
16-Derek Grant
17-Ben Blood
18-Eric Gryba
19-Jim O'Brien
20-Michael Sdao
21-Chris Wideman
22-Bryce Aneloski
23-Jordan Fransoo
24-Marcus Sorensen
25-Ryan Dzingel
26-Jakub Culek
27-Darren Kramer
28-Pat Cannone
29-David Dziurzynski
30-Max McCormick
31-Louie Caporusso
32-Corey Cowick
33-Jeff Costello
34-Wacey Hamilton
35-Craig Schira
36-Jack Downing
37-Brad Peltz

Rundblad got traded
Condra, Greening, Butler and Daugavins graduated
Cowen will graduate


Quote:
Originally Posted by SensAreReligion View Post
Filatov and butler will drop alot
Butler is not a prospect anymore, he played over 65 NHL games (he played 79 actually). Filatov will drop, but not that much because Rundblad, Cowen, Condra, Greening, Butler all won't be there anymore. Filatov is now far from a guaranteed NHLer, a big boom or bust type of prospect trending to bust.

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02-10-2012, 10:12 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
I posted this in the Prospects thread a couple weeks ago. My list as of today :

1-Jakob Silfverberg
2-Mika Zibanejad
3-Robin Lehner
4-Andre Petersson
5-Mark Stone
6-Stefan Noesen
7-Matt Puempel
8-Stephane Da Costa
9-Shane Prince
10-Mark Borowiecki
11-Nikita Filatov
12-Patrick Wiercioch
13-Jean-Gabriel Pageau
14-Fredrik Claesson
15-Mike Hoffman
.....
Pretty Solid list. With O'Brien getting time with the big club, I am hopeful some of the others will as well. I like the idea of seeing what we have. Wiercioch by example actually played very well here last year, maybe better than in the A. Hoffman, Petersson and a few others should get a look-see as well.

Do we still include Filatov? Thought he is gone after this season (no rights).

Might move Pageau up - I really like his passion, but he needs more strength.

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Old
02-10-2012, 10:24 AM
  #74
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1-Mika Zibanejad
2-Robin Lehner
3-Jakob Silfverberg
4-Andre Petersson
5-Stefan Noesen
6-Mark Stone
7-Shane Prince
8-Stéphane Da Costa
9-Matt Puempel
10-Mark Borowiecki
11-Patrick Wiercioch
12-Jean-Gabriel Pageau
13-Fredrik Claesson
14-Jim O'Brien
15-Michael Sdao
16-Ben Blood
17-Mike Hoffman
18-Rob Klinkhammer
19-Nikita Filatov
20-Derek Grant
21-Pat Cannone
22-Eric Gryba
23-David Dziurzynski
24-Bryce Aneloski
25-Max McCormick
26-Ryan Dzingel
27-Corey Cowick
28-Darren Kramer
29-Louie Caporusso
30-Chris Wideman
31-Marcus Sorensen
32-Jordan Fransoo
33-Jakub Culek
34-Wacey Hamilton
35-Jeff Costello
36-Brad Peltz

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Old
02-10-2012, 11:07 AM
  #75
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I don't see how Petersson is ranked higher than Stone. I guess the rule for prospect rankings around here are Swedes first, then everyone else. The only player I would rank ahead of Stone are Zibanejad and Silfverberg, and that is because they are both very talented and very close to being NHL ready.

I also see a big jump for the following players:
Noeson
Prince
Pageau
Sdao
Blood
Borocop
Dziurzynski
Kramer

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