I really don't understand peoples saying Gauthier don't like toughnesss where this is coming from ?
Last seasons after being intimidated in that well known post Pacioretty game, he add White and Mara to a team that already has Moen, Gill and Wisniewski(and even Pouliot), that's an ok number of physical players and this demonstrate he doesn't hate toughness since he had two players that are able to drop it when necessary after that game.
I think for this season his gamble for the start of the season is wanting to see how a group with Gill, Moen, White, Yemelin (We'll see), Blunden and Woywitka can do. He also has alot of time still to sign a guy like Winchester or Mair. Also during the season he can do minor change like last season (a Henry or Conboy or getting a low cost guy like Carkner etc.). Toughness is never a problem at the start of a season.
this board is full of people who think they actually know more than gauthier.
gotta love the internet!!!
And then we'll call you a psychic for knowing that the habs didn't win the cup in the 2011-12 season out of a possible 28 other teams, you should try your luck at gambling.
I guess we'll all be eating some serious crow, hey you got the winning lotto #'s for this upcoming week?
Well, we havent been close to winning a Cup lately. And with Martin, we actually regressed.
But we are going to try the same old recipe again and again and hope for a different result. If you are happy with that, good on you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
You would be guessing wrong. I love seeing Subban get in fights.
And this is another thing, whenever someone brings any real tangible evidence to the table against you guys, you guys ignore it. You then proceed to continue to provide anecdotal and trivial evidence to back up your ridiculous arguments. Your discourse is embarrassing.
What tangible evidence did you bring?
If we would have won the Cup last year with our lack of toughness/fighters/scrappers/protectors (gotta use the entire lot of descriptors since I dont want to be niched ), I would not have a leg to stand on regarding this discussion.
But we did not. Not even close. We saw almost all of the teams in our division beef up and add tough players during the offseason. And we stand pat with pretty much the same non-fighting team that we had last year.
So where is the evidence? And please try to keep it specific to the Canadiens.
Last edited by SouthernHab: 08-26-2011 at 06:39 PM.
Well, we havent been close to winning a Cup lately. And with Martin, we actually regressed.
Like when we had the longest playoff run since 93.
Also look at my previous post give Gauthier some rest this summer he added talented grit in Cole and like I said in my other post he still add toughness if you compare to last year. He just want to see if it's a right mix and if not he can add others players like he did last year. There is still Mair and Winchester UFA.
Two seasons ago the Habs had a decent playoff run but still fell short of the Cup finals.
Last season we were eliminated in the first round.
That would be a regression everywhere except for some here on HFBoards.
Forsead, I like your optimism regarding Mair and Winchester. However, after seeing Gauthier pass on numerous players who could have filled our needs and been had for cheap, I am not going to hold my breath in anticipation of Gauthier signing either of those two players.
Well, we havent been close to winning a Cup lately. And with Martin, we actually regressed.
Ah, I see now. You're not really in a "need to get tougher" camp. You're in the malcontent camp. The ones that are going to find something to complain about every year. I bet last summer you were going "tank, drafting in the lotteries the only way to win!"
Quote:
If we would have won the Cup last year with our lack of toughness/fighters/scrappers/protectors (gotta use the entire lot of descriptors since I dont want to be niched ), I would not have a leg to stand on regarding this discussion.
But we didn't NOT win because we weren't loaded up with tough guys either. So what's your point?
If we would have won the Cup last year with our lack of toughness/fighters/scrappers/protectors (gotta use the entire lot of descriptors since I dont want to be niched ), I would not have a leg to stand on regarding this discussion.
But we did not. Not even close. We saw almost all of the teams in our division beef up and add tough players during the offseason. And we stand pat with pretty much the same non-fighting team that we had last year.
So where is the evidence? And please try to keep it specific to the Canadiens.
What a fallacious argument. If we don't win the cup, the sole reason is because we were not tough enough?
Ridiculous, once again.
You stated that Subban was getting pushed around because we have lack of toughness, I showed you two examples where he wasn't at all; that is evidence. You have shown none.
What a fallacious argument. If we don't win the cup, the sole reason is because we were not tough enough?
Ridiculous, once again.
You stated that Subban was getting pushed around because we have lack of toughness, I showed you two examples where he wasn't at all; that is evidence. You have shown none.
You are correct. Horton and Lucic never went after Subban.
Fallacious argument? You are the one grasping at straws. The last time that the Canadiens won the Cup we had a team with talented forwards AND guys who could and did drop the gloves. Montreal was the team that intimidated the opposition.
And all you have to hang your hat on is the failures that we have seen over the last few years as an organization. And during that time, we were privileged enough to see Gionta thrown to the ice, Price crosschecked in the crease, Pacioretty having his neck broken, Cammalleri cross checked into the boards and injured, Pyatt pounded to a bloody pulp, Spacek and Hamrlik pummeled etc and so on. And that was all from last year.
The common denominator? Not one of the opposing players who did what I mentioned had to fight a Canadien player. Not one. Not one player stood up in defense of their teammate. Was it because the Canadiens players are not loyal to their teammates? Hell no. It is simply that we do not have the players on this team to retaliate and administer a much needed beat down to players on other teams who take liberties with our "stars".
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBey
Ah, I see now. You're not really in a "need to get tougher" camp. You're in the malcontent camp. The ones that are going to find something to complain about every year. I bet last summer you were going "tank, drafting in the lotteries the only way to win!"
Sad.......
Try your projections on someone else.
Last edited by Mike8: 08-26-2011 at 09:08 PM.
Reason: merge
Two seasons ago the Habs had a decent playoff run but still fell short of the Cup finals.
Last season we were eliminated in the first round.
That would be a regression everywhere except for some here on HFBoards.
Did you even watch us play?..Did you even follow the team??...
It doesn't matter that we were playing without Markov, Gorges, MaxPac and what we accomplished throughout the year was actually commendable. None of that matters. In 10-11 round 1 exit, in 09-10 ECF, therefore, we regressed. I would expect a better understanding from a 5 year old. Are you even serious??
Our team played a lot better last year as opposed to the previous year. We finished the season higher up in the standings, our goal differential went up by +13. The teams executed the system a lot better as well. This despite losing key players like Markov/Gorges which shows that Martin actually did a great job. You also need to credit Gauthier for going after players like Wiz that brought in a much needed help. But no, let's whine about the fact some players get pushed around (like on every team, hey, even the big great Chara got pushed around) and criticize management for it. Really, how can you even discuss hockey and not realize that.
Cammalleri cross checked into the boards and injured,
Happens 10 times a week across the league.
Quote:
Pyatt pounded to a bloody pulp,
Whoopdeee dooo.
Quote:
Spacek and Hamrlik pummeled etc and so on.
So what?
Quote:
The common denominator? Not one of the opposing players who did what I mentioned had to fight a Canadien player. Not one. Not one player stood up in defense of their teammate. Was it because the Canadiens players are not loyal to their teammates? Hell no. It is simply that we do not have the players on this team to retaliate and administer a much needed beat down to players on other teams who take liberties with our "stars".
You know what is wrong with your arguments? You take a list of all these things that happened during the season, EXAGGERATE their effect to the club, and then IGNORE the ones that contradict your arguments.
There were just as many instances where the team did stand up for things like this, but you chose to ignore those of course. This is not evidence, these are anecdotes.
In addition, every single team has a list like this, which people have been pointing out ad nauseum throughout these redundant threads.
Seriously man, every time you make an argument, it has more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese.
Did you even watch us play?..Did you even follow the team??...
It doesn't matter that we were playing without Markov, Gorges, MaxPac and what we accomplished throughout the year was actually commendable. None of that matters. In 10-11 round 1 exit, in 09-10 ECF, therefore, we regressed. I would expect a better understanding from a 5 year old. Are you even serious??
Our team played a lot better last year as opposed to the previous year. We finished the season higher up in the standings, our goal differential went up by +13. The teams executed the system a lot better as well. This despite losing key players like Markov/Gorges which shows that Martin actually did a great job. You also need to credit Gauthier for going after players like Wiz that brought in a much needed help. But no, let's whine about the fact some players get pushed around (like on every team, hey, even the big great Chara got pushed around) and criticize management for it. Really, how can you even discuss hockey and not realize that.
It is easier to find an excuse than it is to find a reason.
You can spout stats or make excuses. At the end of the day, when we look back at last season, the Canadiens were eliminated in the 1st Round of the playoffs. The season before, the Canadiens had a better run in the playoffs.
In the real world, not doing as well as you did the year before, whether at work or in school, is regressing. Trying to explain it away with excuses is not accepting reality.
But we did not. Not even close. We saw almost all of the teams in our division beef up and add tough players during the offseason. And we stand pat with pretty much the same non-fighting team that we had last year.
So where is the evidence? And please try to keep it specific to the Canadiens.
I haven't seen too many teams in the conference (let alone the Northeast division) adding toughness. I can only think of Ottawa, so I figure I must've missed something... would you mind providing a quick list of the teams that "beefed up" in the division to substantiate this claim?
You are correct. Horton and Lucic never went after Subban.
Fallacious argument? You are the one grasping at straws. The last time that the Canadiens won the Cup we had a team with talented forwards AND guys who could and did drop the gloves. Montreal was the team that intimidated the opposition.
...and administer a much needed beat down to players on other teams who take liberties with our "stars".
No. The last time the Canadiens won the cup we had a team with a good defensive ethic, uncanny timely scoring, and a HOF goalie at the top of his game. The 93 Habs team basically had three legit tough guys (Odelein, Ewen and Roberge). Odelein was the only one of those three to see the ice in the playoffs.
That team had lots of grit and character, though it helped that the grit was accompanied by top flight talent, esp. guys like Muller and Bellows. But whom among this forward group would be your intimidator?
Damphousse, Bellows, D. Savard, Carbo, Keane, Muller, Leclair, Brunet, Dionne, DiPietro, Lebeau, Leeman? After Odelein on D, you had Daignault, Desjardins, Brisebois, Ramage, Haller, Schneider.
I'd like a little more oomph too, though I'm more in the get a guy who can play camp vs. signing a useless goon for the sake of having a goon. But please don't invent 'evidence' for the MOAR GOONS campaign.
And I have yet to see anyone on the "Goons keep the other team honest" parade explain how the villainous Bruins are the team probably worst hit by cheap shots against their better players. In Horton's case it was a goon yapping at the Canucks that may have gotten Horton gonged. I still see no evidence of the goon as deterrent.
Look above for someone much more knowledgeable about the subject than I, I was only 5 at the time.
Makes no difference, I knew it was a horrible argument, but someone else destroyed it for me better than I could.
I figured that you would have been a 5 year old or some insignificant age the last time that the Habs won a Cup. It is blatantly obvious.
As to the poster that you refer to, he said exactly what I have been saying all along. You have to have talented forwards who can score on the top two lines. You have to have a shut down 3rd line. And, you have to have a 4th line with players who are willing to fight anyone during a game. Add that to a physical and aggressive D corps and you have a chance to win a Cup.
But you were 5 years old. I can understand why you love the makeup of the team as it is/was over the last few seasons. Mediocrity is all that you have seen from the Habs so you are content with mediocrity. Making the playoffs is a success. Winning a round in the playoffs is a rousing success. Even losing in the first round is a cause for celebration.
Celebrate and revel in Gauthier's decision to not make this team tougher. You will get what you have always been getting as a Habs fan, another mediocre season.
Last edited by SouthernHab: 08-26-2011 at 08:47 PM.
It is easier to find an excuse than it is to find a reason.
You can spout stats or make excuses. At the end of the day, when we look back at last season, the Canadiens were eliminated in the 1st Round of the playoffs. The season before, the Canadiens had a better run in the playoffs.
In the real world, not doing as well as you did the year before, whether at work or in school, is regressing. Trying to explain it away with excuses is not accepting reality.
Yes, you didn't finish ahead of the previous year (although you did in the regular season, but hey, no need to mention that). But when you want to blur out crap like saying we ''regress under Martin'' and suggest Martin is making us go backward (also choosing to not acknowledge that Martin lead us to our furthest run since 93), then you're making an evaluation of the team.
It's not because you get eliminated earlier that your play regressed, and saying it's because of Martin is even dumber.
I wonder, what do you think of the way Pittsburgh played without Crosby and Malkin?
SouthernHab thinks by adding some tough players, "the Habs will come out of mediocrity."
And no WG agreed with nothing you said or have said.
And oh noes, because I was 5 I don't have this complex built in to me where I whine and dream of the good ole days like some senile old man. Sorry if I actually realize that winning a cup these days is actually very difficult and requires a long string of luck.
Last edited by Habs 4 Life: 08-26-2011 at 10:42 PM.
No. The last time the Canadiens won the cup we had a team with a good defensive ethic, uncanny timely scoring, and a HOF goalie at the top of his game. The 93 Habs team basically had three legit tough guys (Odelein, Ewen and Roberge). Odelein was the only one of those three to see the ice in the playoffs.
That team had lots of grit and character, though it helped that the grit was accompanied by top flight talent, esp. guys like Muller and Bellows. But whom among this forward group would be your intimidator?
Damphousse, Bellows, D. Savard, Carbo, Keane, Muller, Leclair, Brunet, Dionne, DiPietro, Lebeau, Leeman? After Odelein on D, you had Daignault, Desjardins, Brisebois, Ramage, Haller, Schneider.
I'd like a little more oomph too, though I'm more in the get a guy who can play camp vs. signing a useless goon for the sake of having a goon. But please don't invent 'evidence' for the MOAR GOONS campaign.
And I have yet to see anyone on the "Goons keep the other team honest" parade explain how the villainous Bruins are the team probably worst hit by cheap shots against their better players. In Horton's case it was a goon yapping at the Canucks that may have gotten Horton gonged. I still see no evidence of the goon as deterrent.
Not much for intimidation if Ewen and Roberge were not in the lineup but not many wanted to tangle with Keane and Leclair was a bull.
Here is LeClair man handling Rob Ray until Ray pulls his punk move of tearing off the jersey because he could not fight toe to toe against other enforcers. Hard to believe LeClair only had two fights in his career, he seemed like he could of did well at it if he wanted.
Last edited by googlymoogly: 08-26-2011 at 09:06 PM.
So why did you ignore my "fallacious" argument regarding the last team that won the Cup in Montreal?
No response needed from you. You and Gauthier have the perfect team makeup right now in Montreal. Vive les pacifistes.
Again this, I really don't see why you're saying this about Gauthier when it's clear he doesn't hate toughness when he get to the team guys like Mara, White, Blunden, Wisniewski and Cole. Also he drafted prospects like Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Gallagher, Didier and Dietz. He also traded for Mitera.
I was pointing out that he showed teams 3 thru 6 as an example and didnt mention the Bruins in 2nd.
We dont need goons , but a few guys who can drop the gloves, intiidate the opponent would be beneficial to the overall team.
How many of you would not want a Shawn Thornton , Derek Dorsett or a Steve Ott on this team.
Those are 3 very different players. Of the three only Thorton intimidates the opposition/keeps the honest a bit. I would definetely love to have Thorton on the Habs as a fourth line player. He is exactly what this team needs because he can take a regular shift.
Ott would be awesome too but he is more effective when he has a Thorton/Godard backing him up. He is a better version of Lapierre and we let Laps go for nothing. I do think Laps was a better player when Laraque was on the team as he could go in the corner and stir more **** without having to answer to the other team's thug as often.
