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Snow still looking for top 4 d-man; training camp invite turned down

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08-28-2011, 03:52 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
Mostly agree with your points about doing things differently from how Milbury did them, but who are you lumping into the "idiot" pool? When building you sometimes need to make a change when you hit an unexpected snag. Take Dallas, followed by Tampa, with Mike Smith in mind. Two different teams put him in the "A" prospect pool, only to realize he was as bad as he proved to be, then moved him for other assets. They didn't mindlessly stick with him as the future in net. They also had other needs they identified as more important to fill, and then they did. Whether you are in the early, middle, or late stages of a build you still need to keep the door open for necessary change. It is rare that you get every last vital part of your core in place from the draft. Most? Yes, but rarely does the whole thing cement together from just your draft pool anymore. There is a glaring weakness on defense hence the need for a fix that even the org now acknowledges as needing addressing.

Hamonic is filling in nicely, but CDH is years away from being a top 4 defenseman, and the other defensive prospects in the pool are even further away in development. Streit is a question mark with much to prove this year and will be 34 at the end of the year. How many good years does he have left? Will he even be here if things work out as planned and the club threatens for a cup again one day? It would be great if Snow could simply reach into the tools offered by UFA, but either his hands are tied by Wang and he is lying to us, or it is true that no one wants to come here, or both. Whatever the case may be, the problems on defense still remain and there is only one option left to fix them. Waiting, due to the age of the people you will be waiting on, is not an option.
Waiting Most definitely Is an option, thats the point, its not easy to do, but if you believe in the people you put in responsible positions, you have to do that.

Who here believed That Amac and Hamonic would be this good 2 years ago???????? none of us ......but Garth Snow did, you say DeHaan isnt ready, in fact you say Years away..... do you really know that. of course you dont. opportunity plays a big part in the process, Amac and Hamonic got the opportunity based partly on necessity, but the fact remains Garth and company believed in them.

Patience is also important in when you make a move, There was a school of thought that Bill Torrey believed in, That you make a trade when the teams development itself, says its time to make the move, otherwise you run the risk of retarding growth, because nature abhors a vacuum. leaders step up because there is a need for them, if you bring a veteran in, it is natural for a young player to defer to the veteran and that can be a bad thing.

I fully realize that many Isles fans are eager to "get on with it" since we've been bad for so long but Patience at this stage is a virtue, say we trade Bailey or Comeau for that much needed Defender and Bailey does a Sedin, both of whom were 25, when they finally figured it out, They both had Bailey seasons for 4 years until it clicked and they were picked #2 and #3, you either believe in your choice of player or you dont, and Garth says he's who he wanted once the big 3 were gone, Im willing to trust he knows what he saw in Josh, Comeau too, many of us wanted him gone, because he was too inconsistent, how soon we forget, but Garth was patient.

There is no guarantee that the guy you trade for will be lights out either, When Don Maloney traded Pierre Turgeon for Kirk Muller, he thought he was getting the player who led the Canadiens to the Stanley Cup, instead he got a player who was sullen and disinterested, and cost Maloney his job.

The point of all this is, is that now is the most important time to be patient, This is where your team develops a reliance on each other, this is where character is formed through adversity. Snow will make a move but only if it meets his criteria, a move that makes sense both now and into the future to do it any other way is a panic move and the players know that.

The patience and insistence on adhering to sound well thought out decision making is of great comfort to me, because I know Wang has some Wild ideas, The whole Neil Smith fiasco taught me that, We know Garth had influence and he used it all to get the GM position, so we all should know that He does his best to keep Charles at bay..... I just think that in our present state Patience is more important than ever.

Who knows Garth may feel that Ty Wishart playing with Mark Streit, knowing he has a real opportunity, is ready to realize his potential. if it happens, it will be a testament to the value of patience.


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08-28-2011, 06:32 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Waiting Most definitely Is an option, thats the point, its not easy to do, but if you believe in the people you put in responsible positions, you have to do that.

Who here believed That Amac and Hamonic would be this good 2 years ago???????? none of us ......but Garth Snow did, you say DeHaan isnt ready, in fact you say Years away..... do you really know that. of course you dont. opportunity plays a big part in the process, Amac and Hamonic got the opportunity based partly on necessity, but the fact remains Garth and company believed in them.

Patience is also important in when you make a move, There was a school of thought that Bill Torrey believed in, That you make a trade when the teams development itself, says its time to make the move, otherwise you run the risk of retarding growth, because nature abhors a vacuum. leaders step up because there is a need for them, if you bring a veteran in, it is natural for a young player to defer to the veteran and that can be a bad thing.

I fully realize that many Isles fans are eager to "get on with it" since we've been bad for so long but Patience at this stage is a virtue, say we trade Bailey or Comeau for that much needed Defender and Bailey does a Sedin, both of whom were 25, when they finally figured it out, They both had Bailey seasons for 4 years until it clicked and they were picked #2 and #3, you either believe in your choice of player or you dont, and Garth says he's who he wanted once the big 3 were gone, Im willing to trust he knows what he saw in Josh, Comeau too, many of us wanted him gone, because he was too inconsistent, how soon we forget, but Garth was patient.

There is no guarantee that the guy you trade for will be lights out either, When Don Maloney traded Pierre Turgeon for Kirk Muller, he thought he was getting the player who led the Canadiens to the Stanley Cup, instead he got a player who was sullen and disinterested, and cost Maloney his job.

The point of all this is, is that now is the most important time to be patient, This is where your team develops a reliance on each other, this is where character is formed through adversity. Snow will make a move but only if it meets his criteria, a move that makes sense both now and into the future to do it any other way is a panic move and the players know that.

The patience and insistence on adhering to sound well thought out decision making is of great comfort to me, because I know Wang has some Wild ideas, The whole Neil Smith fiasco taught me that, We know Garth had influence and he used it all to get the GM position, so we all should know that He does his best to keep Charles at bay..... I just think that in our present state Patience is more important than ever.

Who knows Garth may feel that Ty Wishart playing with Mark Streit, knowing he has a real opportunity, is ready to realize his potential. if it happens, it will be a testament to the value of patience.
You run the risk of retarding their growth when the kids do not have the proper veteran support, and Snow was handed the job because he was in the right the place at the right time. Garth Snow has not proven anything except that he gets to pick bottom five each year, and you even trying to compare him to Torrey is ridiculous.

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08-28-2011, 06:39 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
whats hilarious is, is fans like You who cant see that this rebuild started with the 2008 draft you want to talk 20 years with no playoffs? how is that Snows fault?

this team finally is on the right track yet the idiots who have no patience want to jump right back in the Quicki fix quagmire that Milbury ruined our team with instead of Luongo, Chara, Redden in his prime, McCabe Heatley BerTuzzi and Spezza as the core of our team Milbury listened to the Impatient crowd and sold out for pennies on the dollar

The fools are those who refuse to learn from history but thats okay you want to blame Snow for things well before he got here. Somebody had to tear down the mess that was this team and restock the cupboard, But i suppose youre one who believes we should just refurbish the old barn huh? just like you have to tear down and build a new arena, Garth has done things the right way, not in 20 years, but going on 4

its amazing how some people want to use a rotting carcass and build a team that way, instead of starting fresh, and building a team that will last, you might be happy with that, but im not,

My view is fans like you who have no patience dont deserve a winner, because you lack appreciation. Ive been here since day one
Ive been here for all the bad times, so I know the foolishness of trying to shortcut the process The best thing about Garth Snow is that he doesnt listen to the chicken littles, Thats the thing that gives me the greatest Hope for our future.

so you go ahead and piss and moan about the Last 20 years,I know we had clowns running things for much of that, but im not going to complain about the guy who finally said. Enough with the excuses, I may not have a state of the art building, and my owner may be a nut job and others may not have limits like I do on my payroll, but im going to do whats best for this franchise,

thats Garth Snow, and I say hell yeah he's done a good job, no matter what some whiny "I want it now" chicken little says, if you cant see definite progress in spite of things beyond his control you obviously arent looking very hard. and blaming him for the mess things were before, isnt his problem, no matter how much you try to make them his
Look at all the insults. I did not say the 20 yrs was Snow's fault, so stick to what I said. I also did not say to gut the team. So once again stick to what I said. I also never said the barn should just be refurbished. Keep making things up.....

The team lacks quality veteran leadership, it is Snow's job to address this. He has not. But you continue to drool over a guy that so far has done no better than picking bottom 5.

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08-28-2011, 08:37 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Sammy2010 View Post
Look at all the insults. I did not say the 20 yrs was Snow's fault, so stick to what I said. I also did not say to gut the team. So once again stick to what I said. I also never said the barn should just be refurbished. Keep making things up.....

The team lacks quality veteran leadership, it is Snow's job to address this. He has not. But you continue to drool over a guy that so far has done no better than picking bottom 5.
Sammy you didnt say he needed to gut the team, but thats where your thinking is Wrong. because according to you he should have built on with the same players he had.

according to you we should have stuck with the empty farm system and spent money he didnt have to bring in players who wouldnt sign here, he did bring in the Vets he could, or were Bill Guerin, Doug Weight, Mike Comrie and Fedetenko forgotten? did you also forget Paul Martin and Zybynek Michalek Who were offered bigger contracts but didnt want to come here?

You may want to make up in your head some alternate reality, where these things werent true, but Garth couldnt do that, he had to accept the limits that reality placed on him,

you say now :

"I did not say the 20 yrs was Snow's fault, "

but 2 responses ago did you not say:

"This team has not won a playoff round in nearly two decades."


so which is it? is it his fault we havent won a playoff round or isnt it, because if it isnt then thats all the more reason he had to start over and gut the team, but oh wait you said:

"I also did not say to gut the team."


so i guess you meant to say he should work with the same garbage that brought us 20 years of futility

Thats the problem with your thinking, you want to fix the problem without dealing with the consequences that come with fixing the problem.......otherwise known as I want to have my cake and eat it too

Maybe in Sammy's world, you can do that, but in reality, you cant, and Garth Snow had to deal with reality.

He started with a fractured team

A virtually empty prospect base

An arena no one wanted to play in

and an owner who had lost tons of money and who was more interested in his real estate prospects than he was in his hockey prospects.

Add all that up and yeah any reasonable fan living in the real world, would give him credit

but I guess in your world, if you get tired of waiting for things to be repaired, you say : " I want it and I want it now" and it miraculously happens..... gee that must be nice.....


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08-28-2011, 09:52 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Sammy you didnt say he needed to gut the team, but thats where your thinking is Wrong. because according to you he should have built on with the same players he had.

according to you we should have stuck with the empty farm system and spent money he didnt have to bring in players who wouldnt sign here, he did bring in the Vets he could, or were Bill Guerin, Doug Weight, Mike Comrie and Fedetenko forgotten? did you also forget Paul Martin and Zybynek Michalek Who were offered bigger contracts but didnt want to come here?

You may want to make up in your head some alternate reality, where these things werent true, but Garth couldnt do that, he had to accept the limits that reality placed on him,

you say now :

"I did not say the 20 yrs was Snow's fault, "

but 2 responses ago did you not say:

"This team has not won a playoff round in nearly two decades."


so which is it? is it his fault we havent won a playoff round or isnt it, because if it isnt then thats all the more reason he had to start over and gut the team, but oh wait you said:

"I also did not say to gut the team."


so i guess you meant to say he should work with the same garbage that brought us 20 years of futility

Thats the problem with your thinking, you want to fix the problem without dealing with the consequences that come with fixing the problem.......otherwise known as I want to have my cake and eat it too

Maybe in Sammy's world, you can do that, but in reality, you cant, and Garth Snow had to deal with reality.

He started with a fractured team

A virtually empty prospect base

An arena no one wanted to play in

and an owner who had lost tons of money and who was more interested in his real estate prospects than he was in his hockey prospects.

Add all that up and yeah any reasonable fan living in the real world, would give him credit

but I guess in your world, if you get tired of waiting for things to be repaired, you say : " I want it and I want it now" and it miraculously happens..... gee that must be nice.....

How about you stop making things up as you go along?

Success full teams use a combination of the draft and trades. Got it now?

Point out the 20 yr failure of the Isles it is not blaming Snow, it just shows the constant failure that has NOT changed under Wang/Snow.

Outside of Streit the vets Snow brought in are either over the hill or nothing special. He has trouble getting players to come here because the management is a joke, and the team has proven nothing. Neil Smith did not have problems attracting players.

I understand, asking them to actually make the playoff is so unreasonable. Like I said, the bar is set so low....

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08-28-2011, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
let me ask you something honestly, When Snow came in this was a playoff team, though a fractured one, because of the Yashin/Peca divide, We had a prospect cupboard that was basically bereft of talent, first thing Snow did was trade what little we had left for Smyth who was an emotional leader of the highest order. it was Snows hope that Smyth would galvanize the roster, weld the rift and give him time to restock through the Draft.

to me it was all perfectly logical, but unfortunately Smyth took less from the Avs and left. My question, Knowing all this what would you have done? do you try to win with a broken foundation or do you tear it all down? knowing not only must you restock, but you have to gut the place to root out and fumigate any remaining pests?

its a simple question. and I for one know what I would have done. Since then knowing My decision, I just look for discernable Progress.

I see the prospect shelf getting deeper, I see us with a legit top 9, which i cant say we've had in forever, We got a bad break with Rick in goal being injured but based on how good he was when he signed, it was potentially a great deal, and the defense is coming along, We even have actual depth at the bridge...... so yeah knowing what my decision was I can say yeah im ok with where we are

so how would you have answered my question

Knowing all this what would you have done? do you try to win with a broken foundation or do you tear it all down?
When did I ever say I wouldn't have rebuilt? When did I say Snow was doing a bad job?

Seriously based on this response, and others on this thread-you need to stop reading into things on people's posts that just aren't there. Don't assume one statement means they also think something else.

I'm fully onboard having a rebuild-the ONLY thing I said was that it's not successful yet. So my question for you is this: what has the rebuild accomplished so far?

By the way, let's not forget this was a broken team after Poti, Smyth, Kozlov, Blake, Zednik, etc. bolted to UFA.

And I think you used the wrong language in one of your posts when you said the team's situation isn't Snow's "problem". It is his problem-it's not his "fault". There's a big distinction.

Snow's job is to turn this team around, and he's chosen a rebuild (which like I said I'm totally on board with). However the rebuild hasn't even garnered a playoff race yet, let alone the playoffs, let alone a deep run in the playoffs. Will it add up to that? I hope so. Do we know that it will? No, we don't. That's my point.


PS: don't start "be patient, I'm sick of that" crap. I've been hearing that since 97/98.


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08-28-2011, 10:29 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sammy2010 View Post
How about you stop making things up as you go along?

Success full teams use a combination of the draft and trades. Got it now?

Point out the 20 yr failure of the Isles it is not blaming Snow, it just shows the constant failure that has NOT changed under Wang/Snow.

Outside of Streit the vets Snow brought in are either over the hill or nothing special. He has trouble getting players to come here because the management is a joke, and the team has proven nothing. Neil Smith did not have problems attracting players.

I understand, asking them to actually make the playoff is so unreasonable. Like I said, the bar is set so low....
once again youre so wrong, Neil Smith was GM for 6 weeks? and he left Patty Lafontaine was here and he left, why do you think they ran as soon as they saw what they had to deal with?

Keep living in your dream world, Neil Smith tried for years to get another GM job, do you think he'd leave for no reason? The fact is this job and this owner and the magnitude of all that needed to be done, is alot greater than you in your limited imagination can grasp.

The bar is not set low, the bar is the same for any GM. Whats different is, is the amount of work that was needed to fix what is wrong here. and until you accept that you will remain clueless as to what has been accomplished.

Try and get out of yourself for a moment, Stop looking at the Ideal, and ask not what you would do in a perfect world. instead first look at the limitations that Snow has to deal with, and then consider what you would do, its easy to say you would do things better when you dont face any obstacles, its a whole other matter when you realize someone else is putting up roadblocks in your path.

if as you say Management is a Joke, then how is that Snows fault? isnt management put in place by ownership? you seem to continually blame Snow for things beyond his Job Description, Neil Smith left because of his inability to deal withing the framework this owner imposes. Doesnt that tell you that this job is a hell of alot more complicated than you in your Dream world imagine?

All Im saying is look at reality, and judge Snow on the basis of what he's actually had to deal with, and not some pie in the sky notion thats based only in your head, because only a fool would see this situation as normal.

hell if Wang had his way we'd have a Sumo wrestler in goal.

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08-28-2011, 10:41 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
once again youre so wrong, Neil Smith was GM for 6 weeks? and he left Patty Lafontaine was here and he left, why do you think they ran as soon as they saw what they had to deal with?

Keep living in your dream world, Neil Smith tried for years to get another GM job, do you think he'd leave for no reason? The fact is this job and this owner and the magnitude of all that needed to be done, is alot greater than you in your limited imagination can grasp.

The bar is not set low, the bar is the same for any GM. Whats different is, is the amount of work that was needed to fix what is wrong here. and until you accept that you will remain clueless as to what has been accomplished.

Try and get out of yourself for a moment, Stop looking at the Ideal, and ask not what you would do in a perfect world. instead first look at the limitations that Snow has to deal with, and then consider what you would do, its easy to say you would do things better when you dont face any obstacles, its a whole other matter when you realize someone else is putting up roadblocks in your path.

if as you say Management is a Joke, then how is that Snows fault? isnt management put in place by ownership? you seem to continually blame Snow for things beyond his Job Description, Neil Smith left because of his inability to deal withing the framework this owner imposes. Doesnt that tell you that this job is a hell of alot more complicated than you in your Dream world imagine?

All Im saying is look at reality, and judge Snow on the basis of what he's actually had to deal with, and not some pie in the sky notion thats based only in your head, because only a fool would see this situation as normal.

hell if Wang had his way we'd have a Sumo wrestler in goal.
More insults.

Smith brought in players and he did not run from the team, he was fired. Once again you make things up.

Neil Smith is currently the president, general manager, and governor of the Greenville Road Warriors of the ECHL.

Management is a joke, and yes part of that is on Snow. He is a part of the management.

It is not my job to fix the team, but when fans like you throw that out there you are only showing that Snow is no better than your average fan.

The team is not picked to make the playoffs again by a lot of fans. What an accomplishment and if Snow does not bring in quality veteran support the talent the team does have will go to waste. If you think that enough of Snow's picks are going to turn into above average players to make them a contender you are dreaming.

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08-28-2011, 10:47 AM
  #84
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When did I ever say I wouldn't have rebuilt? When did I say Snow was doing a bad job?

Seriously based on this response, and others on this thread-you need to stop reading into things on people's posts that just aren't there. Don't assume one statement means they also think something else.

I'm fully onboard having a rebuild-the ONLY thing I said was that it's not successful yet. So my question for you is this: what has the rebuild accomplished so far?

By the way, let's not forget this was a broken team after Poti, Smyth, Kozlov, Blake, Zednik, etc. bolted to UFA.

And I think you used the wrong language in one of your posts when you said the team's situation isn't Snow's "problem". It is his problem-it's not his "fault". There's a big distinction.

Snow's job is to turn this team around, and he's chosen a rebuild (which like I said I'm totally on board with). However the rebuild hasn't even garnered a playoff race yet, let alone the playoffs, let alone a deep run in the playoffs. Will it add up to that? I hope so. Do we know that it will? No, we don't. That's my point.


PS: don't start "be patient, I'm sick of that" crap. I've been hearing that since 97/98.
The salient point of your response is this:

"Snow's job is to turn this team around, and he's chosen a rebuild (which like I said I'm totally on board with). However the rebuild hasn't even garnered a playoff race yet, let alone the playoffs, let alone a deep run in the playoffs. Will it add up to that? I hope so. Do we know that it will? No, we don't. That's my point."


Guess what I totally agree with every word. yet what do we do with that?

All we can do is ask ourselves the question, DO WE SEE PROGRESS Honestly as fans thats all we can do. Each of us decides what we personally consider as progress. Im never going to convince you that we have progressed if you dont see it, so im not going to try. But for me, I see very definite progress, but then thats just me.

Where I differ from you is that I dont look back beyond when Snow took the Job, Why because its inherently unfair. As you said its his job to fix the problem, not to change history. If you had been named GM, What would you do when a fan brought up 97/98 like you just did?

When you do that and consider this as a 4 year old franchise, suddenly what Snow has done, and actually has accomplished takes on a whole new image.

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08-28-2011, 10:55 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
When did I ever say I wouldn't have rebuilt? When did I say Snow was doing a bad job?

Seriously based on this response, and others on this thread-you need to stop reading into things on people's posts that just aren't there. Don't assume one statement means they also think something else.

I'm fully onboard having a rebuild-the ONLY thing I said was that it's not successful yet. So my question for you is this: what has the rebuild accomplished so far?

By the way, let's not forget this was a broken team after Poti, Smyth, Kozlov, Blake, Zednik, etc. bolted to UFA.

And I think you used the wrong language in one of your posts when you said the team's situation isn't Snow's "problem". It is his problem-it's not his "fault". There's a big distinction.

Snow's job is to turn this team around, and he's chosen a rebuild (which like I said I'm totally on board with). However the rebuild hasn't even garnered a playoff race yet, let alone the playoffs, let alone a deep run in the playoffs. Will it add up to that? I hope so. Do we know that it will? No, we don't. That's my point.


PS: don't start "be patient, I'm sick of that" crap. I've been hearing that since 97/98.
To be fair (and I don't know if you were one of them), the overwhelming majority of fans was all in on this now 4 year rebuild through the draft so to imply it has anything to do with '97/'98 isn't correct.

We went with the slow and steady approach of restocking our system and building through the draft, a complete youth movement, when this started I think that overwhelming majority of fans knew this was going to take time. I understand getting itchy feet having gone through this process but the fact remains, what else is an Islander fan to do but be a little more patient?

We have a good thing going on here both on the Island as well as the Bridge which is something we haven't seen since pre-milbury days. This was well worth it and quite frankly was absolutely neccessary to the future of this franchise.

Do you think this process was easy for Snow? Here's a guy who comes into his job as the backup goaltender turned GM (those who hammer him on that conveniently forget he has a Masters Degree in Business Administration from the University of Maine), who has to take the team through the worst process a GM ever has to go through. To his credit he has stayed the course and not waivered when it would have been a hell of a lot easier to trade a few top picks and prospects for the big name/big headlines. While it is easy to point at his record since becoming a GM the hard part is being honest and objective when evaluating what he has done in building a system that is deep in talent. Yeah there were no-brainer picks, but there was also a bounty of picks he acquired through shrewd moves and trades which advanced not only the quality but the quantity of players to stock our system.

Soon this team is going to be VERY good and you will enjoy it so much more and winning will be so much sweeter because you went through hell right with Snow and the team. You want to win now, I want to win now, I think every Islander fan wants to win now, but if winning now sacrifices the long term health of the franchise......I can afford to be a little more patient, how about you?


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08-28-2011, 10:59 AM
  #86
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Do you think this process was easy for Snow? Here's a guy who comes into his job as the backup goaltender turned GM (those who hammer him on that conveniently forget he has a Masters Degree in Business Administration), who has to take the team through the worst process a GM ever has to go through. To his credit he has stayed the course and not waivered when it would have been a hell of a lot easier to trade a few top picks prospects for the big name. While it is easy to point at his records since becoming a GM the hard part is being honest and objective when evaluating what he has done in building system deep in talent. Yeah there were no-brainer picks but there was also a bounty of picks he acquired through shrewd trades which advanced not only the quality but the quantity of players to stock our system.
Now you are going to play the Snow victim card? No one forced him to take the job, and his degree does not mean he is going to be a good GM.

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08-28-2011, 11:03 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Sammy2010 View Post
More insults.

Smith brought in players and he did not run from the team, he was fired. Once again you make things up.

Neil Smith is currently the president, general manager, and governor of the Greenville Road Warriors of the ECHL.

Management is a joke, and yes part of that is on Snow. He is a part of the management.

It is not my job to fix the team, but when fans like you throw that out there you are only showing that Snow is no better than your average fan.

The team is not picked to make the playoffs again by a lot of fans. What an accomplishment and if Snow does not bring in quality veteran support the talent the team does have will go to waste. If you think that enough of Snow's picks are going to turn into above average players to make them a contender you are dreaming.
Thats funny according to Neil Smith it wasnt that cut and dried, as WFAN reported:

"Update 605pm: Wang, on WFAN, states that he wants to run the team like a business, like having a board of directors.

Wang stated he was clear about the fact that this is how he wanted to run things, and because of this philosophical difference Smith was let go (and better now than later).

Wang added that the signings were from a mix of opinions.

Chris Russo insists that sports teams aren’t successful with Wang’s business model way of thinking and Wang answers that he thinks this method can work.

Russo says that he doesn’t understand how Snow has been put in the position of decision making and Wang’s counter argument is that he’s surrounded by many good hockey minds.

The conversation keeps going back to Wang’s team management concept.

Wang named Bill Torrey as someone he sometimes consults with, but did not say whether or not he agrees with this method of management.

Update 1025pm: It’s not over yet. Pat Lafontaine, a “senior adviser”, informed owner Charles Wang he’s resigning. There’s no word if anyone else has jumped ship yet, but it would certainly be ironic if anyone else left and Snow is left to fend for himself - which is exactly what Smith wanted in the first place.

But LaFontaine had advised Wang to take 48 hours before making any final decision about Smith. He then suggested that the owner let the dust settle and not name a replacement today, the source said. After Wang ignored both bits of advice, LaFontaine “decided this was not the right time and place for him,” the person said."

but go ahead believe what you want, its not like Smith couldnt have just done what Wang wanted and stayed, he just knew that no other hockey organization worked like that

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08-28-2011, 11:08 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TennesseeJedd View Post
To be fair (and I don't know if you were one of them), the overwhelming majority of fans was all in on this now 4 year rebuild through the draft so to imply it has anything to do with '97/'98 isn't correct.


Soon this team is going to be VERY good and you will enjoy it so much more and winning will be so much sweeter because you went through hell right with Snow and the team. You want to win now, I want to win now, I think every Islander fan wants to win now, but if winning now sacrifices the long term health of the franchise......I can afford to be a little more patient, how about you?
AMEN brother !!!!!!!!!!!

this is my entire point and you just said it better than i ever could

Thanks Jedd

until people can let go completely of the things beyond Snows control, and the past, they cannot judge him rationally its that simple.

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08-28-2011, 11:32 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Thats funny according to Neil Smith it wasnt that cut and dried, as WFAN reported:

"Update 605pm: Wang, on WFAN, states that he wants to run the team like a business, like having a board of directors.

Wang stated he was clear about the fact that this is how he wanted to run things, and because of this philosophical difference Smith was let go (and better now than later).

Wang added that the signings were from a mix of opinions.

Chris Russo insists that sports teams aren’t successful with Wang’s business model way of thinking and Wang answers that he thinks this method can work.

Russo says that he doesn’t understand how Snow has been put in the position of decision making and Wang’s counter argument is that he’s surrounded by many good hockey minds.

The conversation keeps going back to Wang’s team management concept.

Wang named Bill Torrey as someone he sometimes consults with, but did not say whether or not he agrees with this method of management.

Update 1025pm: It’s not over yet. Pat Lafontaine, a “senior adviser”, informed owner Charles Wang he’s resigning. There’s no word if anyone else has jumped ship yet, but it would certainly be ironic if anyone else left and Snow is left to fend for himself - which is exactly what Smith wanted in the first place.

But LaFontaine had advised Wang to take 48 hours before making any final decision about Smith. He then suggested that the owner let the dust settle and not name a replacement today, the source said. After Wang ignored both bits of advice, LaFontaine “decided this was not the right time and place for him,” the person said."

but go ahead believe what you want, its not like Smith couldnt have just done what Wang wanted and stayed, he just knew that no other hockey organization worked like that
Snow has a lot more freedom than Smith did, and he still cannot get the job done.

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08-28-2011, 11:43 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
AMEN brother !!!!!!!!!!!

this is my entire point and you just said it better than i ever could

Thanks Jedd

until people can let go completely of the things beyond Snows control, and the past, they cannot judge him rationally its that simple.
Jack Hillen = Snow FAIL.
Scott Gordon = Snow FAIL.
Rushing Bailey = Snow FAIL.
Bashing Dubie to the public = Snow FAIL.
The handling of the Guerin trade = Snow FAIL.
As of now only one of his picks has had a major impact and that is JT.

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08-28-2011, 12:02 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Sammy2010 View Post
Jack Hillen = Snow FAIL.
Scott Gordon = Snow FAIL.
Rushing Bailey = Snow FAIL.
Bashing Dubie to the public = Snow FAIL.
The handling of the Guerin trade = Snow FAIL.
Botta's credentials = Snow FAIL.
As of now only one of his picks has had a major impact and that is JT.
Just a quick little fix.

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08-28-2011, 12:03 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2010 View Post
Jack Hillen = Snow FAIL.
Scott Gordon = Snow FAIL.
Rushing Bailey = Snow FAIL.
Bashing Dubie to the public = Snow FAIL.
The handling of the Guerin trade = Snow FAIL.
As of now only one of his picks has had a major impact and that is JT.
Sammy

do you consider Amac in the 6th round a fail?
or Hamonic at the end of round 2 a fail?
or Streit a guy, people thought couldnt play defense a fail?
or signing Matt Moulson who couldnt make 2 other under .500 teams a fail?
or Selecting Michael Grabner when four worse teams let him pass by on Waivers a fail?
or Top goalie prospect Kevin Poulin in the 6th Round a fail?

and that says nothing about Kabanov, Petrov and Lee all later picks that show promise

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08-28-2011, 12:07 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
Just a quick little fix.
Quick little fix. Those are facts, and Botta has a lot more credibility than you do.

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08-28-2011, 12:09 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Sammy

do you consider Amac in the 6th round a fail?
or Hamonic at the end of round 2 a fail?
or Streit a guy, people thought couldnt play defense a fail?
or signing Matt Moulson who couldnt make 2 other under .500 teams a fail?
or Selecting Michael Grabner when four worse teams let him pass by on Waivers a fail?
or Top goalie prospect Kevin Poulin in the 6th Round a fail?

and that says nothing about Kabanov, Petrov and Lee all later picks that show promise
Every team in the league has some nice pieces, if the team stays in the bottom five it is all for nothing. What he has put together has not proven a thing yet.

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08-28-2011, 12:11 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
Just a quick little fix.
I apologize, I miss read.

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08-28-2011, 12:31 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Sammy

do you consider Amac in the 6th round a fail?
or Hamonic at the end of round 2 a fail?
or Streit a guy, people thought couldnt play defense a fail?
or signing Matt Moulson who couldnt make 2 other under .500 teams a fail?
or Selecting Michael Grabner when four worse teams let him pass by on Waivers a fail?
or Top goalie prospect Kevin Poulin in the 6th Round a fail?

and that says nothing about Kabanov, Petrov and Lee all later picks that show promise
Not getting a good (1st/2nd line) veteran forward to help the kids? Fail. Or a veteran mid pairing, minutes eating defenseman? Fail.

There's no debating around that.

Everyone wants to put a death grip on picks and prospects. Guess what? You have to give to get. And unfortunately, it's looking like Snow isn't giving anytime soon. Can't wait to see another 11th-14th place finish next year.


Last edited by macleod50: 08-28-2011 at 12:53 PM.
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08-28-2011, 12:37 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2010 View Post
Jack Hillen = Snow FAIL.
Scott Gordon = Snow FAIL.
Rushing Bailey = Snow FAIL.
Bashing Dubie to the public = Snow FAIL.
The handling of the Guerin trade = Snow FAIL.
As of now only one of his picks has had a major impact and that is JT.
Hillen wasn't a fail, it was a smart move. They offered him an immediate contract and got him. It didn't pan out, but he was serviceable. Hardly a fail since it cost nothing.

Gordon didn't work out. That's on Snow.

Jury is still out on Bailey. You have no idea if being rushed has hurt him or not. You need to wait a few years and see how he pans out. Undetermined.

Bashing Dubie in public? I don't even remember what that's about.

Guerin trade wasn't a fail. We don't know what happened, but it appeared he had a deal that fell through. He still got something for him. Big deal.

On the whole, Snow's done a lot more right than wrong. The most recent "right" thing was not breaking the bank on Erhoff. Snow knows what he's doing on the hockey ops side.

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08-28-2011, 12:48 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
Hillen wasn't a fail, it was a smart move. They offered him an immediate contract and got him. It didn't pan out, but he was serviceable. Hardly a fail since it cost nothing.

Gordon didn't work out. That's on Snow.

Jury is still out on Bailey. You have no idea if being rushed has hurt him or not. You need to wait a few years and see how he pans out. Undetermined.

Bashing Dubie in public? I don't even remember what that's about.

Guerin trade wasn't a fail. We don't know what happened, but it appeared he had a deal that fell through. He still got something for him. Big deal.

On the whole, Snow's done a lot more right than wrong. The most recent "right" thing was not breaking the bank on Erhoff. Snow knows what he's doing on the hockey ops side.
Yea, I could tell by the results.

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08-28-2011, 01:37 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Waiting Most definitely Is an option, thats the point, its not easy to do, but if you believe in the people you put in responsible positions, you have to do that.

Who here believed That Amac and Hamonic would be this good 2 years ago???????? none of us ......but Garth Snow did, you say DeHaan isnt ready, in fact you say Years away..... do you really know that. of course you dont. opportunity plays a big part in the process, Amac and Hamonic got the opportunity based partly on necessity, but the fact remains Garth and company believed in them.

Patience is also important in when you make a move, There was a school of thought that Bill Torrey believed in, That you make a trade when the teams development itself, says its time to make the move, otherwise you run the risk of retarding growth, because nature abhors a vacuum. leaders step up because there is a need for them, if you bring a veteran in, it is natural for a young player to defer to the veteran and that can be a bad thing.


The point of all this is, is that now is the most important time to be patient, This is where your team develops a reliance on each other, this is where character is formed through adversity. Snow will make a move but only if it meets his criteria, a move that makes sense both now and into the future to do it any other way is a panic move and the players know that.
Mike - I cut your points down to keep the whole post from being a novel, no other reason.

One mistake I think you are making is talking about Snow as if this is a great plan he came up with. I just don't think that is the case. Prior to him switching gears and building via the draft he was clearly trying to augment what Smith had started with Nolan, bringing in vets. We know that failed miserably when Captain Canada said "No Thanks," to the best offer on the table. At that point I would argue that Snow was confronted with a reality check that left him with no other option BUT to build via the draft. I give him points for not continuing to pilot the burning 747 the Isles were back then even deeper into the ground, but lets not pretend he had any other option. If you are in a room with the air being sucked out and that room has one door, using that one door to get out does not mean you acted out of brilliance. It means it was your only option. Not using it would mean you are insane or suicidal, yes, but I don't award the title of genius to someone who simply took the only option he had. He's stuck with it so far, and likely made some mistakes along the way like rushing Bailey. Ok, some points for that, but we also got handcuffed by luck as well in our drafts. That the build suited Wang's economic needs as well makes you wonder if his hands have been further tied in that regard as well.

I think they did well with their drafting in general since the rebuild was announced, but by happenstance they wound up with a talent gap in the prospect waves on defense. Torrey never had to contend with that as the first real gem he got was Potvin. Bill was smart not to move him despite good offers, but Snow wasn't provided that kind of luxury. We have what... MacDonald who was brought in under another regime entirely, Hamonic who is far and away the most now ready of the kids, and who else? CdH is not ready this year. He may see some spot work, but that's likely it. Full time play is a minimum of a year away and that's not full time play in the role of a top 4, it is full time play as a rookie defenseman who has to add both mass and NHL experience to his resume. Defense men take time to grow into their rolls, something that has been true forever with few exceptions. Yes, minimum 3 years for him, and I'll be happy to go game to game with you over him if you like just to underline my point. We need one more in his mid 20s because frankly they can't keep relying on castoffs and long shots on defense. I think Snow knew this when he said he wanted one of the top defensemen in Bogosian's class but had to settle for Bailey. If we could do a one to one swap, Bogo for Josh, I believe it would be bye bye Bailey about that fast.

On your bolded statements, waiting sometimes is not an option when the hole is so big it hurts the rest of the kids. Note, no one is asking for some massive sell off or what have you, just this one need settled. On vets, Torrey absolutely saw the value in having good mentors on the club, but I am only using his very own opinion here, so what does he know? And on Snow making moves that meet only his criteria, I think you are leaving an important variable out of that equation. Never forget about Wang, because Wang is involved in every decision this club makes and likely doesn't make.

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08-28-2011, 01:49 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by macleod50 View Post
Not getting a good (1st/2nd line) veteran forward to help the kids? Fail. Or a veteran mid pairing, minutes eating defenseman? Fail.

There's no debating around that.
I completely agree, but I think that one is all about Charles. They won't spend for someone to actually help JT. Yes, it is stupid, and the stupidity is underlined every time I see PAP pretend to be a wing for John and flub a perfect scoring play. Some in here dole out respect to any points Parenteau gets next to John. The rest of us see the points being left on the table by him robbing Tavares of a real line mate. It's not PA's fault though, he plays where the coach puts him. It is Wang's fault for not opening the wallet up enough to get John real 1st line talent, and in part Snow's fault for not being able to effectively explain to his owner how that hurts John and the club both now and in the long run. I have seen many people lament Stamkos' climb to power vs where JT is at. Yeah, how about we put St Louis next to Tavares and see what happens to his totals? I feel bad for Cap in this situation too. If anyone in here doesn't think he goes home from most games and kicks something for lack of a better wing for Tavares then you are fooling yourselves.

Oh my, yeah, that would probably be a bit different. I'd also like to see Stamkos get his points between Moulson and PAP. "Funny" doesn't even have anything to do with it.

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