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How much do we miss Gill, Scuderi.

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Old
08-28-2011, 01:35 AM
  #1
Sty1877
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How much do we miss Gill, Scuderi.

I was just thinking about our cup run, and how pivotal the 'piece' and big Hal Gill were. Do you consider Martin and Michalek a huge upgrade over the above mentioned? While I feel that Michalek is a playoff performer, I'm not yet sold on Martin. I feel like Gill and his defense, including the 'clutch and grab' that is often over-looked in the playoffs, is crucial to winning a cup.

Offensively, I think we're at an advantage. But for the cap space (double that of Gill and Scuds) do you think it's worth it? I guess only a year with Malkin and Crosby will tell, but I feel like Gill and Scuds were made for playoff hockey. Are we better off for the $$?

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08-28-2011, 02:22 AM
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Luigi Lemieux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sty1877 View Post
I was just thinking about our cup run, and how pivotal the 'piece' and big Hal Gill were. Do you consider Martin and Michalek a huge upgrade over the above mentioned? While I feel that Michalek is a playoff performer, I'm not yet sold on Martin. I feel like Gill and his defense, including the 'clutch and grab' that is often over-looked in the playoffs, is crucial to winning a cup.

Offensively, I think we're at an advantage. But for the cap space (double that of Gill and Scuds) do you think it's worth it? I guess only a year with Malkin and Crosby will tell, but I feel like Gill and Scuds were made for playoff hockey. Are we better off for the $$?
Martin-Michalek is a huge upgrade, they would be a #1 pairing on many teams. Gill-Scuderi was the pens bottom pairing though, and they are better than our current bottom pairing. Overall i think the 09 team had better depth but our current top 4 is quite a bit better. Considering how many minutes the top 4 eat i think the current defense is superior.

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08-28-2011, 02:36 AM
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Martin-Michalek are definitely superior. but the Gill-Scuderi pairing was a luxury because they were our third pairing. we should compare them with Niskanen/Lovejoy/Engelland, and then it doesn't look good.

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08-28-2011, 03:33 AM
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wej20
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To have as good as defense as the cup winning team we definitely need to bring someone in at the deadline to solidify the bottom pairing. Eaton, Aucoin or Zannon look like the best realistic options.

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08-28-2011, 06:23 AM
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I miss Eaton more then both of them combined. Watching Eaton come back from those injuries and play as well as he did was very innerspring. I was so sad to see him go.

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08-28-2011, 06:34 AM
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Remember the cup year when Eaton had more goals than Jeff Carter in the Philly series? haha

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08-28-2011, 06:59 AM
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JWells16
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If we had Gill/Scuderi as our bottom pairing, we would have the best defense in the league. The Cup run really drove up their price.

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08-28-2011, 07:00 AM
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Uncle Jorgi
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Keep in mind that Gill, for as awesome as he was at the things he did well, also was pretty terrible at the things he didn't do well, and while Scuds was fantastic for a shutdown pairing guy, he had his warts too ... for much of his career leading up to those playoffs, he had significant trouble clearing the zone, and really did a number on our transition game with poor outlet passing.

Compared to the candidates we have for our bottom pairing now, they may look like an upgrade, but Lovejoy and Engelland only got their first significant taste of NHL hockey this past season too. By the end of this season, i wouldn't be surprised if noone in their right minds would swap them for Scuds and Gill. They're both still relatively young, and i'm expecting improvement out of both of them this year, provided Niskanen doesn't play well enough to keep either of them on the bench for an extended amount of time (which would make our starting 6 even that much better).

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08-28-2011, 07:38 AM
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This team has moved past those two. I'd like to have Gill for a Cup run because he could just be used sparingly and on the PK.

As someone has said before, I think Eaton would be a real nice bottom pairing pickup for us. The positives are endless, and I really can't think of a negative aside from him not being physical.

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08-28-2011, 07:42 AM
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When either player had to skate with the puck for more than five strides, or make a pass longer than 20 feet, I would shut my eyes hard and hold my breath.

When they didn't have to do much with the puck or move around too much, they were safe. When it came to cleaning up mess in front of Fleury, bodies or pucks, they got it done. Which is why they were good on the PK usually, they didn't have to worry so much about guys bearing down on them one-on-one with speed (note, Scuderi trying to stand up Ovechkin) or making the outlet pass. Just block the shots, clear the crease, and it get it out of danger. Defense-by-committee. The more time you gave them with the puck though, the higher the propensity they had for doing something stupid.

I certainly don't miss players dumping and chasing on Gill, nor Scuderi's noodle-armed clearing attempts up the damned ice. God, when Scuderi went tape-to-tape to Helm in Game 4......It was the best assist of his life.


Quote:
Martin-Michalek is a huge upgrade, they would be a #1 pairing on many teams. Gill-Scuderi was the pens bottom pairing though, and they are better than our current bottom pairing. Overall i think the 09 team had better depth but our current top 4 is quite a bit better. Considering how many minutes the top 4 eat i think the current defense is superior.
They were our 2nd pair in the playoffs. They both had more icetime than the Letang-Eaton pair both at even strength and overall. The only players who saw more ice than Scuderi were Gonchar, Malkin and Crosby.

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08-28-2011, 07:42 AM
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Aye, +1 to Mark Eaton. He was a wonderful player for us during his time on the squad.

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08-28-2011, 08:36 AM
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We miss them so much you could fit the "void of pain" inside one of these.



Our top four, arguably top 5 is much better / more rounded than the group we had the Cup year. That includes further improvement and refinement to Letang's game as well. The only static part of the equation is Orpik and we all know his value and consistency. The thing is, if we'd kept those guys around another year and then lost in the playoffs, the mystique would be gone. Both of them made some great plays that run and should be remembered and credited with same. But neither are the type of guy you "must have" to win the Cup. Michalek OTOH, I think definitely IS that type of guy. Martin the jury is out but at the very least he's better in the regular season as far as helping to produce wins than Scuds or Gill. He's an infinitely better skater and passer than either of those guys and as a result makes far fewer dumb plays or forced plays than the other two. And Engelland has stepped up nicely; I expect him to continue to get smarter / better out there, within his limits.


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08-28-2011, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
Martin-Michalek is a huge upgrade, they would be a #1 pairing on many teams. Gill-Scuderi was the pens bottom pairing though, and they are better than our current bottom pairing. Overall i think the 09 team had better depth but our current top 4 is quite a bit better. Considering how many minutes the top 4 eat i think the current defense is superior.
This in a nut shell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
To have as good as defense as the cup winning team we definitely need to bring someone in at the deadline to solidify the bottom pairing. Eaton, Aucoin or Zannon look like the best realistic options.
Should we start counting the days.

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08-28-2011, 09:33 AM
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For what the Pens want out of their Dmen, ZM and Martin are a perfect fit.

IMO having Gill and Scuds works out perfect for MAF or any butterfly goalie for that matter. They were flat out awesome around the net and I think a butterfly goalie needs that so he can go down to just worry about that first shot.

Hard to argue with how Martin, ZM and MAF meshed the 2nd half of last season though. I'm holding out hope that Engo can work on his skating and become a tougher version of Scuds. I like his sense for a player of his ilk and he seems like he'll block a shot with his head.

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08-28-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
Martin-Michalek is a huge upgrade, they would be a #1 pairing on many teams. Gill-Scuderi was the pens bottom pairing though, and they are better than our current bottom pairing. Overall i think the 09 team had better depth but our current top 4 is quite a bit better. Considering how many minutes the top 4 eat i think the current defense is superior.
This is how I see it as well. If we can shore up the bottom pairing before/at the deadline, this team's defense can surpass that Cup winning team's depth as well.

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08-28-2011, 11:20 AM
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I'm not a fan of this discussion for the mere fact it's all in relation to what they make now. I miss Gill/Scuds cheap. I don't mind ONE bit that they are gone for their respective prices.

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08-28-2011, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I'm not a fan of this discussion for the mere fact it's all in relation to what they make now. I miss Gill/Scuds cheap. I don't mind ONE bit that they are gone for their respective prices.
I think Gill is still well worth his price. Not Scuderi though.

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08-28-2011, 12:14 PM
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Sty1877
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Definitely forgot I made this thread. Ah, Yuengling..

Anyhow, I do think we're better off now, though Gill and Scuderi were (at the time) making very little money for being our shut-down pair. For what Scuderi is getting paid now, I much rather have Michalek. But if somehow we had managed to keep Gill and Scuds for cheap and put them on the bottom pairing, we'd have the #1 defense by far. We just need something better than a Niskanen down there to be good. I'm comfortable with one of Eng or Lovejoy.

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08-28-2011, 02:13 PM
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Having Gill on the bottom pairing with a mobile D-man like Niskanen or Lovejoy would satisfy me come playoffs. And I agree, he absolutely is still worth 2.25. He was a major part of keeping Sid off the scoresheet 2nd round against Montreal.

He would have been a difference maker against Tampa's top guns.

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08-28-2011, 03:31 PM
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Bortuzzo/ Strait will a better version of Gill/Scuderi in 2012-1013.

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08-28-2011, 05:59 PM
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Having Gill on the bottom pairing with a mobile D-man like Niskanen or Lovejoy would satisfy me come playoffs. And I agree, he absolutely is still worth 2.25. He was a major part of keeping Sid off the scoresheet 2nd round against Montreal.

He would have been a difference maker against Tampa's top guns.
See that's why I think the answer to the question in this thread is more sketchy than it might initially seem. I like Martin and Michalek a lot. They're solid as a rock throughout the regular season when 2 of every 3 games are against teams that simply aren't as good as us. Against Tampa I thought they were average at best. Some very good games and some questionable ones.

It's a small sample size and I'm not handing out any verdicts yet by any means, but there a lot of athletes that just aren't that great come playoff time. Hopefully that pair can really lock it down in the playoffs from now on. Not saying Gill/Scuderi at today's prices is better by any means, but there seems to be this notion that Martin/Michalek are infallible when to be honest when it counted I thought they were just okay. They're awesome when the last few opponents the recent schedule goes something like Florida, Columbus, Philadelphia, NYI, but that's not the same thing as the playoffs at all.

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08-28-2011, 07:13 PM
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And in M/M's defense, Vinny and St. Louis had their way in many games against Washington and Boston. They're playoff performers so it's not the end of the world if they had some production against our 2nd pairing.

I still think we'd be better off going after another top 4 capable D-man and putting one of martin/michalek on the 3rd pairing. We don't have enough net clearing presence beyond orpik and letang.

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08-28-2011, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
And in M/M's defense, Vinny and St. Louis had their way in many games against Washington and Boston. They're playoff performers so it's not the end of the world if they had some production against our 2nd pairing.

I still think we'd be better off going after another top 4 capable D-man and putting one of martin/michalek on the 3rd pairing. We don't have enough net clearing presence beyond orpik and letang.
Yeah, I think that's completely fair.

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08-28-2011, 11:04 PM
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I was such a fanboy of Scuderi, and I hated Gill outside of the fact he was nothing more than an enormous tree in front of the net that did nothing but cause inconvenience for EVERYONE on the ice (Penguin players or not).

However, Martin / Michalek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scuderi / Gill.

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08-28-2011, 11:24 PM
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Michalek is better than Scuderi at his own game, and also adds better puck moving and an offensive dimension.

Martin is certainly better than Gill, but doesn't fill the very specific void that Gill was capable of -- namely an enormous reach on the PK and an ability to go up against bigger opposing forwards.

But we won't miss Gill so much when we have 6'4 Despres + 6'4 Bortuzzo on our 3rd pair.

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