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The Hockey News predicts Habs will finish 8th in East

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Old
08-28-2011, 06:14 PM
  #226
buddahsmoka1
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
It's not only Price. You also lost 30 or so points in Wisniewski and he was pretty good for you overall, no?
People have been saying this same line for how long now? If it wasn't Souray, it was Streit, now its Wiz.

I am more concerned about the loss of Hamrlik than Wiz.

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Also East got stronger overall as all analysts say. Is it possible that because of tougher competition Mtl gets 5 less points? I think it's completely possible.
Once again, this is another poor and over used argument. The actual tangible difference between conferences from off-seasons is pretty much null. I don't believe that their "competition is tougher," what evidence is there to suggest that?

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How can you expect sure improvement in standings if you take in account all of above?
I am not expecting sure improvement. But I think there is a much greater chance they have improvement, than regression, for reasons that have already been stated, and others.

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You would think though that with best 2nd line in hockey
Huh?

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and 1st line of Lupul-Connolly-Kessel instead of Crabb-Bozak-Kessel team can stabilize offense a bit?
The problem with the Leafs isn't their offense. Its their defensive ability on forward, their uni-dimensional defense, their coaching, and their inability to win matchups on the ice because of lack of depth. Depth has been marginally improved, nothing else really has been addressed at all and you are left with a similar situation of expecting players that are not capable of providing something you want them to.

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Leafs also need drastic improvement on PP and PK. I personally see some pieces on our roster that can improve that. Question is if new coaches can improve it some from one of the worst in entire league. If you are that bad you would expect that good assistant coach can lift it a bit?
It starts with your head coach, who is a dud.

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08-28-2011, 06:24 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
Normalization does not work that way. Gomez and Gionta could be just on downhill of their careers and if you normalize forward base of both teams separately you would think that younger core has better chance to improve on average. Also Leafs didn't get nearly enough offense from their young blue line. While normalizing you need to see if Franson, Gunnarson and Phaneuf again on average can improve team stats.

"theirs to lose"? Yeap, that team indeed landed on the moon. As far as speculation goes there is nothing given in the East.
If you would have watched the Habs more closely you would have realized that they lacked a winger suitable to compliment Gomez and Gionta. When Pacioretty was fitted on that line, that line was the most productive on the team for that time period. Fortunately, the addition of Cole gives the Habs two options for that line, instead of putting players that are wholly unskilled there such as Moen or Darche.

And if you look at the stats of that line, you will notice just the sheer amount of shots/chances they were generating, but just were not completed. They actually generated more chances for last season than the year previous despite receiving less points. Gionta and Gomez will be fine if they are complimented well, and the Habs have a number of forwards to insulate them in the event that it happens again(just like last season).

And BTW, when you make the playoffs 4 years in a row, yes, the playoff spot is yours to lose.

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08-28-2011, 06:29 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by matCH penalty View Post
I love Wiz, but remember why we had him in the first place.
There are few who can believe Markov will stay healthy.

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08-28-2011, 06:31 PM
  #229
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There are few who can believe Markov will stay healthy.
Good for them.

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08-28-2011, 06:34 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
There are few who can believe Markov will stay healthy.
This isn't 1960, and Andrei isn't a racehorse. Just because he had an injury doesn't mean we have to take him out back and shoot him.

While we're making weasel-word filled declaratives of extremely dubious applicability, I could very easily say a second-hand thing or two about Toronto's goaltending situation and its chances of seeing hockey after early April.

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08-28-2011, 06:41 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matCH penalty View Post
This isn't 1960, and Andrei isn't a racehorse. Just because he had an injury doesn't mean we have to take him out back and shoot him.

While we're making weasel-word filled declaratives of extremely dubious applicability, I could very easily say a second-hand thing or two about Toronto's goaltending situation and its chances of seeing hockey after early April.
Toronto, at even-strength actually had about league-average goaltending (17th in the NHL). I looked even-strength save percentage is the more predictive than overall save-percentage.

Goaltending is an issue in Toronto insofar as they require top-notch goaltending, along with not having bad luck in other areas, to make the playoffs. Not unlike the Habs from about 1999 through the 09/10 season, though the Habs got that goaltending fairly often.

Toronto's problems by and large lay outside of the goal. With goaltending being fairly easy to find given the glut of goaltenders, that is rather unfortunate for them.

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08-28-2011, 06:52 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
There are few who can believe Markov will stay healthy.
I think you are lacking information.

Yes, there is always a probability that Markov's knee gives out, but it is minimal. Actually, it was more probable after his previous operation, where he had a graft from his own body, which is a not a natural ligament, and has much higher risk of laceration under high stress.

Despite his operation, Markov was looking good on this ice in his 7 games last year, and was actually very good by is 6th game, so using the old man emoticon is just wishful thinking on your part.

Now, his new operation, is the same operation (from the same surgeon, Tom Brady also had the same from the same) that Justin Williams had, this time it is a transplant from a donor, so it is the natural ligament, and has far higher capacity when it comes to endurance and stress. Williams had his best season after coming back from the same injury and operation. Granted, Williams is about 5 years younger, but it's not like Markov is anywhere near 40 either, he's 32, and this is not the 90's anymore where players like Bure and Koivu saw their careers sidetracked by this type of injury.

There are two things to consider with Markov, maintaining performances and durability, the former he has shown to be okay after his previous operation, and for the latter, the concern is whether his ligament will old, which is more probably this time around because it is a better type of surgery than the previous one, with a much higher success rate.

Keep those fingers crossed though, cause there's always a chance he gets injured again, just like both Connolly and Lombardi could go down, but those chances are lower than him coming back and having a good season, if you know anything about the actual details of his injuries/operations.


And BTW, saying the Leafs have the best '2nd line' in the NHL or even in the East is just ridiculous. Reminds me of last year and the year before when some Leafs fans were proclaiming that they had the best D corp in the East before the season started.... only to finish among the worst GAAs...

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08-28-2011, 06:56 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
The problem with the Leafs isn't their offense. Its their defensive ability on forward, their uni-dimensional defense, their coaching, and their inability to win matchups on the ice because of lack of depth. Depth has been marginally improved, nothing else really has been addressed at all and you are left with a similar situation of expecting players that are not capable of providing something you want them to.
I disagree. I put improvement in special teams much higher than defense alone. Again, you would think that 1PP unit of Lupul-Kessel-Kadri-Connolly-Liles will fare better than what we had last year? Not to mention Connolly elite PK abilities.

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You would think though that with best 2nd line in hockey
Huh?
News flash. It was second in production only to now disassembled second line in SJ.

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08-28-2011, 06:58 PM
  #234
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Toronto, at even-strength actually had about league-average goaltending (17th in the NHL).

Toronto's problems by and large lay outside of the goal.
That was actually my point. It's cheesy to go all SOURCES SAY with a simplistic but sensational message that isn't technically inaccurate but is also not anywhere near an insightful comment to bring to an argument.

Wiz's points are not something anybody was relying on for this season. It was beyond obvious that he was a rental player. Bringing it up as if it's a serious concern is ridiculous.

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08-28-2011, 07:26 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
I disagree. I put improvement in special teams much higher than defense alone. Again, you would think that 1PP unit of Lupul-Kessel-Kadri-Connolly-Liles will fare better than what we had last year? Not to mention Connolly elite PK abilities.
May be the PP will fare better, but that unit still very sub-par compared to the teams around the league. I highly doubt Connolly of all players is going to have any drastic change on one of the worst PK units in the league. Even the best PKer in the world isn't going to change much in the grand scheme of things.

It comes down to coaching, of which, the Leafs are putrid in.

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News flash. It was second in production only to now disassembled second line in SJ.
Did they even get the second most icetime?

How much did they get scored on?

How often were they used when they were down multiple goals in the game already?

These are questions I don't know the answer to, but could shed light on that tid bit of information you have supplied.

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08-28-2011, 07:48 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
I disagree. I put improvement in special teams much higher than defense alone. Again, you would think that 1PP unit of Lupul-Kessel-Kadri-Connolly-Liles will fare better than what we had last year? Not to mention Connolly elite PK abilities.



News flash. It was second in production only to now disassembled second line in SJ.
Except that next year, it will probably be their first line.

How much you want to bet (whoever is Toronto's 2nd line in terms of points, won't be in the top 10 of second line production in the nhl.

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08-28-2011, 07:54 PM
  #237
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6 straight years for the Leafs having the best defence in the league, this has to be the year the yfinally break through and win the cup!

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08-28-2011, 08:05 PM
  #238
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Ok. How many people here fully expect Markov after missed seasons and surgery to hit 50 pints next year? Just curious.

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08-28-2011, 08:17 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
Ok. How many people here fully expect Markov after missed seasons and surgery to hit 50 pints next year? Just curious.
Why do you insist on misrepresenting facts? Markov played over half the season two seasons back. So where are these missed seasons? He's also posted 37 points in his last 52 games played over those two seasons. And none of his game is predicated on speed or skating. Some movement is required, sure, but this isn't a career-ender. He'll be able to move.

I don't understand why you're insistent on thinking it's absurd to believe Markov could just as easily come back and score at a pace below normal for him--which 50 points would be.

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08-28-2011, 08:20 PM
  #240
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Ok. How many people here fully expect Markov after missed seasons and surgery to hit 50 pints next year? Just curious.
this is where you misunderstand Montral, Markov doesn't need to hit 50 points to be successful

I bet you less than 50% of habs fans would be willing to bet money that Markov hots 50 points.
It's poposturous, Subban didn't even hit 50 last yea, I wouldn't bet Subban hits 50 this year either.

But I would bet that Markov plays 50 or more games and I would also bet that Pleks, Gomez & Gio's turnover rates increase as a result and their point totals increase.

Markov is a catalyst, I think Cammy's#'swill also guy up a result.

Do you agree or disagree?

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08-28-2011, 08:33 PM
  #241
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Except that next year, it will probably be their first line.

How much you want to bet (whoever is Toronto's 2nd line in terms of points, won't be in the top 10 of second line production in the nhl.
You are alone in this assessment. Nobody in Toronto, media or in hockey analysts community considers KGM line our 1st line. The goal always was to find players to play with Kessel on 1st line. Lupul and Connolly are there to play with Kessel. They might be stop gaps, but arguably on talent level they are more than Grabo and MacArtur.

It will be funny if you traded 1C to us for second rounder while you don't really have anything better yourself. Grabo is 2C, period.

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this is where you misunderstand Montral, Markov doesn't need to hit 50 points to be successful
...
Do you agree or disagree?
I agree that he will not score 50 points, which = that team will miss difference in Wiz production. Wiz was no liability on your D aside form pure production.

And I disagree that Markov will not miss a bit. I also disagree that limited speed will allow him be as effective. It will affect team speed, which Montreal relies on.


Last edited by Mike8: 08-28-2011 at 08:56 PM. Reason: merge
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08-28-2011, 08:49 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
Ok. How many people here fully expect Markov after missed seasons and surgery to hit 50 pints next year? Just curious.
I don't see how anyone can really answer this with any kind of confidence.

He could come back and play really well or he could easily go down to another injury. I've heard folks on both sides of the fence argue hard one way or the other but the truth is that nobody really knows how good or how durable that knee will be.

I wouldn't rule out him coming back and playing well again though. He could certainly come back and play well again.

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08-28-2011, 08:54 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
And I disagree that Markov will not miss a bit. I also disagree that limited speed will allow him be as effective. It will affect team speed, which Montreal relies on.
Not really. Markov launches transition offense with his superb cerebral game. He's rarely ever in full flight.

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08-28-2011, 09:04 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
May be the PP will fare better, but that unit still very sub-par compared to the teams around the league. I highly doubt Connolly of all players is going to have any drastic change on one of the worst PK units in the league. Even the best PKer in the world isn't going to change much in the grand scheme of things.
It comes down to coaching, of which, the Leafs are putrid in.
This is exactly my point. Leafs changed assistant coaches, whose responsibilities are special teams. And it's more important than personnel. Even then they added some personnel as well (Connolly for both PP and PK, Franson for PP). Remember that last year there were only 3 defensemen who were any good on PP. I'm leaving out of this Armstrong (PK) missing time and AHLers playing on PP and PK last season. Not all changes always for the better, but it hard to argue that those changes are not for the better. There is big upside comparing to last season and no way Leafs can be worse in those departments.

Also it's debated in Toronto that Wilson might be on short leash. If there is no results early in the season many expect him to be canned. While I agree that coaches situation is not ideal in Toronto, I think it's close to be finally changed very soon. Either there will be result or new coach. Win-win.

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08-28-2011, 09:28 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
If you would have watched the Habs more closely you would have realized that they lacked a winger suitable to compliment Gomez and Gionta. When Pacioretty was fitted on that line, that line was the most productive on the team for that time period. Fortunately, the addition of Cole gives the Habs two options for that line, instead of putting players that are wholly unskilled there such as Moen or Darche.

And if you look at the stats of that line, you will notice just the sheer amount of shots/chances they were generating, but just were not completed. They actually generated more chances for last season than the year previous despite receiving less points. Gionta and Gomez will be fine if they are complimented well, and the Habs have a number of forwards to insulate them in the event that it happens again(just like last season).

And BTW, when you make the playoffs 4 years in a row, yes, the playoff spot is yours to lose.
Not anymore. Washington's playoff spot may be theirs to lose but most everyone else in the East have to earn the remaining 7 spots. So I wouldn't quite say that the Habs' playoff spot is ours to lose, the injury bug may still bite us for what we know. But, as long as we don't lose too many man-games from our key players we should have a chance for a playoff spot, if not the division.

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08-28-2011, 09:53 PM
  #246
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Since when is Lupul a top 6 forward? Most teams he's a top 9.

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08-28-2011, 09:54 PM
  #247
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Not really. Markov launches transition offense with his superb cerebral game. He's rarely ever in full flight.
So true, and yet he's highly effective.

This is gonna burn teams at the end of games when (at least) he'll play with Subban, Markov with the great pass to Plex or Subban with both the speed...

Even though there's the possibility he'll get injured again, I'm less concerned for Markov with his knee, than let's say, if he had a serious history of concussions. I'm actually more concerned for a guy like Pacioretty.

Today, with enough money most knees can be well fixed, brains is another story.

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08-29-2011, 06:46 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
There are few who can believe Markov will stay healthy.
Few, or do you mean the TO hopeful?

I always get a kick out of Leaf fans who know more about the Habs than the fans themselves....Mooseoak would call you a troll, but I wouldn't...

Don't worry about Markov, and we wont worry about double dion...

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08-29-2011, 06:58 AM
  #249
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The Leafs won't make the playoffs again. The habs will make the playoffs again.

The coaching is a cop out. The Leafs don't have a good enough team, period. That falls on the GM, not the coach. When you miss the playoffs again, blame Brian Burke, not Ron Wilson.

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08-29-2011, 07:08 AM
  #250
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I really dont think Reimer will keep it up all year. You could see last year towards the 20-25 game mark he was starting to go down way to early and people were just ripping it glove side on him and now teams have had an offseason to look over his tendencies.

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