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Old
08-30-2011, 09:57 AM
  #351
predfan98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
If, and I mean IF, what predfan98 is saying (which goes in direct opposition to what we've always heard, included from those like the BC poster that know him personally) is true, then I agree -- but, by god, if you trade him, there'd better be NOW help coming back, not futures. Not if, again, you're not looking at starting over.

so, if i understand you , you are saying you know this poster in bc and know that he knows weber. so this information is totally accurate and you are standing behind it.

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08-30-2011, 09:59 AM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
If, and I mean IF, what predfan98 is saying (which goes in direct opposition to what we've always heard, included from those like the BC poster that know him personally) is true, then I agree -- but, by god, if you trade him, there'd better be NOW help coming back, not futures. Not if, again, you're not looking at starting over.
agreed. and as you see i did miss the BC posters comment.

guess all we can do is hang on for the ride...

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08-30-2011, 10:12 AM
  #353
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I think something that people aren't taking into account here, and it may have been covered but I have to leave for class soon so I skipped over a handful of posts, but being able to spend more money and having the right pieces on which to spend that money are mutually exclusive issues. I'm not saying we are in a position to spend more money, but even if we are we can't simply go around throwing contracts are people so that fans can say "hey! they're spending more money!". That does us no good, and ultimately we end up like the Leafs or the Flames or any other team that can, and often does, spend tons of money only to perpetually miss the play offs all together. Chastise Poile all you want, but this isn't NHL11 and you can't simply get whatever player you decide you want so long as you're under the cap. I don't care if we sold out every night since the inaugural season, that would be an absolutely terrible way to run a team.

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08-30-2011, 10:15 AM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
so, if i understand you , you are saying you know this poster in bc and know that he knows weber. so this information is totally accurate and you are standing behind it.
I think at this point there isn't much difference in credibility between "I live in Weber's hometown and he's my friend" and "someone who works for the Preds at an undisclosed capacity said X, and I believe him". No offense intended, but really both comments should be taken with a heavy pinch of salt. Even if Weber told a friend that he loves Nashville, and he doesn't want to play anywhere else you could couple that with the insider info on him brushing aside a long term contract. Then, it's not hard to draw the conclusion that he loves it here, but wants to remain flexible in case the team doesn't prove it is committed to winning, which is what we've been saying for the better part of the month.

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08-30-2011, 10:35 AM
  #355
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Waiting, hoping, and praying for all those young players to mature to contribute is a strategy best used by teams that are rebuilding. Teams like Edmonton, Islanders, etc.

We're realistically one piece from serious cup contention (not just pat on the head "what an effort by that scrappy team" contention), this is not the time to throw a half-dozen youngsters into the fire and keep your fingers crossed. Especially when you don't necessarily have to, with the extra budget room we have to spend.

On top of that, the window's closing. Weber's got one foot out the door. We can weather that if we can lock up Suter/Rinne long term. But we don't know if we can do that.

Hoping for a return from Radulov is like a guy who is holding off on paying his bills hoping he wins the lottery. It's a longshot, and by the time he comes back, this team might be dismantled.

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08-30-2011, 10:45 AM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I think something that people aren't taking into account here, and it may have been covered but I have to leave for class soon so I skipped over a handful of posts, but being able to spend more money and having the right pieces on which to spend that money are mutually exclusive issues. I'm not saying we are in a position to spend more money, but even if we are we can't simply go around throwing contracts are people so that fans can say "hey! they're spending more money!". That does us no good, and ultimately we end up like the Leafs or the Flames or any other team that can, and often does, spend tons of money only to perpetually miss the play offs all together. Chastise Poile all you want, but this isn't NHL11 and you can't simply get whatever player you decide you want so long as you're under the cap. I don't care if we sold out every night since the inaugural season, that would be an absolutely terrible way to run a team.
That all goes back to whether or not you believe that there wasn't one single player available by trade or by free agency that could have helped our team this year.

I don't buy it.

We're left to believe that every single free agent is too expensive, bad fit, too risky, etc. We can't make a trade because no one wants our defensive prospects. Not buying it either.

And if you don't buy it either, then the logical conclusion is that DP either didn't try hard enough to improve the team, or tried and failed, or is honestly going with the "Nick Spaling is the cure to our offensive woes" strategy (which IMHO, is a disaster waiting to happen and considering we haven't been able to find a serious offensive threat in 10+ years of being a franchise, DP loses the benefit of the doubt for me).

Again, what type of player are we waiting for? Ovechkin ain't going to be available. Neither will Crosby, Kane, Datsyuk, etc.

Which is why I don't necessarily buy the line that we're going to use that cash in the near future to improve the team.

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08-30-2011, 10:56 AM
  #357
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Well, I never said anything like that. All my point was is that we can't simply spend money just to do it. You're right in that we shouldn't be seeking one specific player, but it isn't as if tons of players are available for a few interested clubs. Quite the opposite, in fact. Very few realistic options even exist in the league (players who are as good as our best forwards if not slightly better) which doesn't even subtract those who aren't available, and the only team we can know for sure isn't in on a deal for a particular player is the team who currently pays him. Mix in all of the other potential destinations, the assets needed to complete a deal, the desire or ability to part with those assets, the interest in our city if he has a NTC/NMC (let's be honest, a lot of players who can legitimately help us will have some sort of NTC), and the fragile nature of the trading game itself and it becomes a very complicated process. Now, take into account how Poile seems to always be looking for that character guy on top of all of the other things. We need a guy who has some semblance of two-way play or he's going to get the Svatos treatment (unless, of course, it's a Bergfors-type low-risk move). We need a guy who doesn't have a history of injuries. We need a guy who has shown consistency (again, except in low-risk cases).

So really we are looking for this guy:

1) Improves our forward corps
2)Is available
3)his team isn't demanding a dramatic overpayment
4)other teams aren't driving up the cost of the guy
5)doesn't have a NTC/NMC, or is willing to waive to come here
6)doesn't have a history of injuries
7)fits the character mold
8)passes the Trotz test
9)is within our price range
10)isn't a one-hit wonder

I'm not saying all, or any, of those things are acceptable. I'm just saying that's the reality here. For instance, I wish Trotz would make more of an effort to find a niche for some of these guys who have no defensive instincts. Svatos got hurt, but if Bergfors is buried on the fourth line, given some 2nd unit PP time, and then is shipped off for not performing then we have a problem.

Also, this Spaling-as-a-top-six-forward thing is still overblown. Poile mentioned potential, and all of the sudden it's brought up in posts as if Spaling has been touted as the savior (I know that's hyperbole, but still). Everyone has the right to dog on Poile, and as frustrated as I am it is taking quite a bit of restraint for me to not go ahead and join in, but we should probably be looking at some of the things like the list I posted above rather than taking comments out of context, adding more of our twist to them, and then using them against the guy.

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Old
08-30-2011, 11:00 AM
  #358
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I really don't see this as any new news really. I cannot believe that Weber said, "spend to the cap, do it now!" as that is not feasible for us to do for a couple of reasons.

First, Weber is who the BC poster said he is. That's the Shea Weber we all know and love who's quiet and down to earth off the ice and a fierce competitor on it. I believe that post entirely and don't think it has anything to do truly with the other.

We have all heard Poile and Shea say that he turned down longer term offers by the team this summer. That's not new. Putting a figure (7/7) on it might be, but it still doesn't change what we previously knew.

Shea Weber would be willing to sign a long term deal if the team continued to show an increase payroll off the ice and continued advancing to their stated goal on the ice.

Why would Shea sign a long term deal this summer that leaves money on the table (he would earn more than $49 mil over 7 years as a UFA) with his partner and goalie still not signed and no sure-thing additions made to the team either yet this summer? That doesn't make sense...

The Shea that we know and love chose to elect for a 1 year arbitration award instead of 2 years so that he'd remain an RFA next summer and give the Predators time to accomplish those goals and solidify the direction of the franchise before he made a further commitment.

The team CANNOT go out and spend to the cap in the next year without seriously screwing up the team on the ice. We have the pieces in place to have a strong team and a lot of guys on their first and second contracts right now that are holding down the payroll. We have talented youngsters behind them ready to fill in as decisions are made as to who is going to be re-signed and who will serve as trade fodder (Franson) over the next year.

We aren't that far away. Everyone knows it. Weber will come to play next season with an increased fire and passion to lead this team to victory. It's up to Poile to show him (and the others) that the team will again (Fisher) take that next step to provide the players with the missing piece(s) to help get them over the hump on the ice.

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Old
08-30-2011, 11:06 AM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
Waiting, hoping, and praying for all those young players to mature to contribute is a strategy best used by teams that are rebuilding. Teams like Edmonton, Islanders, etc.

We're realistically one piece from serious cup contention (not just pat on the head "what an effort by that scrappy team" contention), this is not the time to throw a half-dozen youngsters into the fire and keep your fingers crossed. Especially when you don't necessarily have to, with the extra budget room we have to spend.

On top of that, the window's closing. Weber's got one foot out the door. We can weather that if we can lock up Suter/Rinne long term. But we don't know if we can do that.

Hoping for a return from Radulov is like a guy who is holding off on paying his bills hoping he wins the lottery. It's a longshot, and by the time he comes back, this team might be dismantled.
Not to say we are close to this, but there is another end of that spectrum. Chicago won a cup with a bunch of young players. We obviously aren't going to win a Cup with this roster unless we have a ton of luck, but as the youngest team in the play offs we took Vancouver to six games in the second round. There are always two sides, and usually an in between. We aren't on either end right now.

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08-30-2011, 11:06 AM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
So really we are looking for this guy:

1) Improves our forward corps
2)Is available
3)his team isn't demanding a dramatic overpayment
4)other teams aren't driving up the cost of the guy
5)doesn't have a NTC/NMC, or is willing to waive to come here
6)doesn't have a history of injuries
7)fits the character mold
8)passes the Trotz test
9)is within our price range
10)isn't a one-hit wonder
That's a pretty tall task to find a guy who fits that mold.

I don't even think alot of our own players would fit all those criteria.

I don't disagree that it's very difficult to find the right guy. I just don't think that, knowing everything we know, that it was impossible.

A year or two from now, if/when we're rebuilding, I don't want to look back at this season and think "geez, what could have been". Any other season, and i'm cool with the small market, be responsible, build the right way, whatever you want to call it method that we've used.

This year, it's time to swing for the fences. Because it could be a long, long time before we have as talented (and cheap) a roster as we do this year.

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Old
08-30-2011, 11:15 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
That's a pretty tall task to find a guy who fits that mold.

I don't even think alot of our own players would fit all those criteria.

I don't disagree that it's very difficult to find the right guy. I just don't think that, knowing everything we know, that it was impossible.

A year or two from now, if/when we're rebuilding, I don't want to look back at this season and think "geez, what could have been". Any other season, and i'm cool with the small market, be responsible, build the right way, whatever you want to call it method that we've used.

This year, it's time to swing for the fences. Because it could be a long, long time before we have as talented (and cheap) a roster as we do this year.
There is still plenty of time to add, and I agree that it's a lot to ask for a player. It just seems like some of those things are what we always go after, while the rest are simply part of doing business.

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08-30-2011, 11:35 AM
  #362
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To be honest I think Weber is using his bully pulpit to try and improve the team. He wants to win and is wondering if the Preds are the team who can do it. IF he re-signs with the team he will try to work within the team. If he doesn't he's lost faith in management.

Remember we have till the 1st of Jan to start worrying.

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08-30-2011, 11:54 AM
  #363
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Truth of the matter is the only thing that is going to appease the beast known as Shea Weber is either winning or showing a commitment to winning or both. I don't want weber taking his talents to south beach and bringing suter and rinne with him so if I was GM I would be trying to solidify this team into a true contender instead of hoping my prospects pan out so I am not in rebuild mode a year from now.

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08-30-2011, 01:49 PM
  #364
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The Flyers approach is the opposite of Predators.

They identify the players they want to build around and get them locked up, early and for an extended period. They extend JVR for 6 years @ 4.25. This guy is going to be a beast for the next 7 years of his contract and they likely got a great deal anticipating his impact over the next 7 years.

They did the same with Richards when they signed him to a long extension. And in an antithesis Predators move, they move their captain and homegrown talent, because they thought they could improve their team. Sure, it's yet to be seen how it works out, but they are actively trying to improve their their team from every angle possible, years before players hit UFA or even RFA status.

Wonder what our team would look like if we had took the same approach with guys like Weber, Radulov, Hamhuis, etc.

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08-30-2011, 02:06 PM
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
The Flyers approach is the opposite of Predators.

They identify the players they want to build around and get them locked up, early and for an extended period. They extend JVR for 6 years @ 4.25. This guy is going to be a beast for the next 7 years of his contract and they likely got a great deal anticipating his impact over the next 7 years.

They did the same with Richards when they signed him to a long extension. And in an antithesis Predators move, they move their captain and homegrown talent, because they thought they could improve their team. Sure, it's yet to be seen how it works out, but they are actively trying to improve their their team from every angle possible, years before players hit UFA or even RFA status.

Wonder what our team would look like if we had took the same approach with guys like Weber, Radulov, Hamhuis, etc.
Martin Erat and David Legwand are the counters to your theory. Vokoun's pre-firesale just ended. Radulov was less than ten days into the timeframe when we could extend him when it was confirmed that he signed with Ufa ... and he was out of the country for those entire ten days. We're hearing rumors that Weber was offered seven years. There are plenty of confirmed and rumored attempts by the Preds to do exactly what Philly did with JVR, Carter and Richards.

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08-30-2011, 02:17 PM
  #366
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predfan98, I think someone did tell you that, and I think they probably do work for the Predators. I doubt they have some great inside that we don't have, if they do, tell us who they are or alteast their position with the company, if not, I call busslhit, you're under a moniker on a message board, there's no confidentiality issues. I think the more likely deal was he heard, as we all did, Shea say he wanted to see how the team was committed winning, especially with re-signing Suter and Rinne and adding some offensive players to the team. I believe Shea likely did say that, but it doesn’t mean “spend to the cap or else!”.

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08-30-2011, 02:27 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Martin Erat and David Legwand are the counters to your theory. Vokoun's pre-firesale just ended. Radulov was less than ten days into the timeframe when we could extend him when it was confirmed that he signed with Ufa ... and he was out of the country for those entire ten days. We're hearing rumors that Weber was offered seven years. There are plenty of confirmed and rumored attempts by the Preds to do exactly what Philly did with JVR, Carter and Richards.
They didn't offer Weber a contract last offseason when they could have. I doubt Poile even hinted an extension with Radulov. It's just not the way he operates "We might have a meeting when we are in the same city with his agent"... blah blah blah. "We haven't even talked to Suter or Rinne because we are focused on Weber" blah blah. Arnott, Kariya, Dumont, all having call in to express their interest as a UFA. blah blah.

There is a pattern of passivity, and Flyers approach is the opposite. Yes, Legwand and Erat are the long term extensions that Poile has signed, he overpaid and gave NTCs, giving us no flexibility. Unlike say Mike Richards, who was has a very accurate contract and the flexibility to move if they saw an opportunity as they did.

There is a distint difference in the way the clubs are managed.

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08-30-2011, 02:31 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
They didn't offer Weber a contract last offseason when they could have. I doubt Poile even hinted an extension with Radulov. It's just not the way he operates "We might have a meeting when we are in the same city with his agent"... blah blah blah. "We haven't even talked to Suter or Rinne because we are focused on Weber" blah blah. Arnott, Kariya, Dumont, all having call in to express their interest as a UFA. blah blah.

There is a pattern of passivity, and Flyers approach is the opposite. Yes, Legwand and Erat are the long term extensions that Poile has signed, he overpaid and gave NTCs, giving us no flexibility. Unlike say Mike Richards, who was has a very accurate contract and the flexibility to move if they saw an opportunity as they did.

There is a distint difference in the way the clubs are managed.
I agree, Poile does need to get more aggressive with some things like contracts for Suter, Rinne and Weber.

But sometimes his patience pays off. I think, well, maybe? I am trying to come up with a time it does.

Oh I got it, we don't rush prospects to the NHL, or is that Trotz's call?

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08-30-2011, 03:03 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
predfan98, I think someone did tell you that, and I think they probably do work for the Predators. I doubt they have some great inside that we don't have, if they do, tell us who they are or alteast their position with the company, if not, I call busslhit, you're under a moniker on a message board, there's no confidentiality issues. I think the more likely deal was he heard, as we all did, Shea say he wanted to see how the team was committed winning, especially with re-signing Suter and Rinne and adding some offensive players to the team. I believe Shea likely did say that, but it doesn’t mean “spend to the cap or else!”.
yea, every insight that someone has had from someone in the preds organization , they have all named names. that is bullspit from you in calling me out because i'm not drinking the party koolaid concerning weber.

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08-30-2011, 03:07 PM
  #370
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I said you could say position, can't do that either?

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08-30-2011, 03:11 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
yea, every insight that someone has had from someone in the preds organization , they have all named names. that is bullspit from you in calling me out because i'm not drinking the party koolaid concerning weber.
we're done drinking the other party kool aid as well ... keep hoarding assets

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08-30-2011, 03:12 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
They didn't offer Weber a contract last offseason when they could have. I doubt Poile even hinted an extension with Radulov. It's just not the way he operates "We might have a meeting when we are in the same city with his agent"... blah blah blah. "We haven't even talked to Suter or Rinne because we are focused on Weber" blah blah. Arnott, Kariya, Dumont, all having call in to express their interest as a UFA. blah blah.

There is a pattern of passivity, and Flyers approach is the opposite. Yes, Legwand and Erat are the long term extensions that Poile has signed, he overpaid and gave NTCs, giving us no flexibility. Unlike say Mike Richards, who was has a very accurate contract and the flexibility to move if they saw an opportunity as they did.

There is a distint difference in the way the clubs are managed.

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08-30-2011, 03:16 PM
  #373
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I really don't see this as any new news really. I cannot believe that Weber said, "spend to the cap, do it now!" as that is not feasible for us to do for a couple of reasons.

First, Weber is who the BC poster said he is. That's the Shea Weber we all know and love who's quiet and down to earth off the ice and a fierce competitor on it. I believe that post entirely and don't think it has anything to do truly with the other.

We have all heard Poile and Shea say that he turned down longer term offers by the team this summer. That's not new. Putting a figure (7/7) on it might be, but it still doesn't change what we previously knew.

Shea Weber would be willing to sign a long term deal if the team continued to show an increase payroll off the ice and continued advancing to their stated goal on the ice.

Why would Shea sign a long term deal this summer that leaves money on the table (he would earn more than $49 mil over 7 years as a UFA) with his partner and goalie still not signed and no sure-thing additions made to the team either yet this summer? That doesn't make sense...

The Shea that we know and love chose to elect for a 1 year arbitration award instead of 2 years so that he'd remain an RFA next summer and give the Predators time to accomplish those goals and solidify the direction of the franchise before he made a further commitment.

The team CANNOT go out and spend to the cap in the next year without seriously screwing up the team on the ice. We have the pieces in place to have a strong team and a lot of guys on their first and second contracts right now that are holding down the payroll. We have talented youngsters behind them ready to fill in as decisions are made as to who is going to be re-signed and who will serve as trade fodder (Franson) over the next year.

We aren't that far away. Everyone knows it. Weber will come to play next season with an increased fire and passion to lead this team to victory. It's up to Poile to show him (and the others) that the team will again (Fisher) take that next step to provide the players with the missing piece(s) to help get them over the hump on the ice.
you know, slake, I respect your opinion. but everything above about weber is basically your opinion.

everything above is almost exactly what i would have said or thought in April. most of us on here believed weber and poile that a deal was going to be made.

i don't remember anyone on here not "poo pooing" posters from other teams saying we were going to lose weber.
who wasn't blindsided by this whole mess? if it was anyone here, i sure don't remember them predicting this.

it was confusing, i sure didn't understand it. and weber and poile had a token public press conference. it still didn't make a lot of sense based on what had been said for over a year, and based on what we had thought about Weber.

so, I heard from a reliable person that there was a 7 million 7 year deal on the table and all was going well with the old agent. and then with the agent change, there was a demand that the preds prove they would spend to the cap.

frankly, it's the missing piece for me. it makes everything make more sense.

people who know me, know i don't spread rumors and i wouldn't post this lightly. and those of you that want to call bullspit, feel free, i don't care about those of you that just want to toss stones at the messenger.

i'm not drinking the weber koolaid. it's no different from those who chose not to drink the trotz koolaid or the poile koolaid. but boy, it sure causes people to come out of the woodwork and attack people personally.

it's a hockey board, everyone has an opinion.

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08-30-2011, 03:16 PM
  #374
Preds311
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Sounds like a my half-brothers' cousin's uncle, who works for (fill in the blank). It is quite an old forum trick.

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08-30-2011, 03:21 PM
  #375
gopreds19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
That all goes back to whether or not you believe that there wasn't one single player available by trade or by free agency that could have helped our team this year.

I don't buy it.

We're left to believe that every single free agent is too expensive, bad fit, too risky, etc. We can't make a trade because no one wants our defensive prospects. Not buying it either.

And if you don't buy it either, then the logical conclusion is that DP either didn't try hard enough to improve the team, or tried and failed, or is honestly going with the "Nick Spaling is the cure to our offensive woes" strategy (which IMHO, is a disaster waiting to happen and considering we haven't been able to find a serious offensive threat in 10+ years of being a franchise, DP loses the benefit of the doubt for me).

Again, what type of player are we waiting for? Ovechkin ain't going to be available. Neither will Crosby, Kane, Datsyuk, etc.

Which is why I don't necessarily buy the line that we're going to use that cash in the near future to improve the team.
I agree with absolutely everything in this post.

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