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MLD2011 Sir Montagu Allan Final (1) Eden Hall Warriors vs. (2) Philadelphia Quakers

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Old
08-29-2011, 05:40 PM
  #1
BillyShoe1721
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MLD2011 Sir Montagu Allan Final (1) Eden Hall Warriors vs. (2) Philadelphia Quakers

Eden Hall Warriors

GMs: vecens24 & TheDevilMadeMe

Head Coach: Claude Julien
Assistant Coach: John Muckler

Nick Mickoski - Billy McGimsie - Nikolai Drozdetsky
Ulf Dahlen - Mike Ribeiro - Marian Stastny
Sami Kapanen - Steve Sullivan - Roland Pettersson
Dave Tippett - Larry Patey - Randy McKay (A)

Jack Evans - Mike O'Connell
Walt Buswell (C) - Brian Campbell
Christian Ehrhoff - Garth Butcher (A)

Johnny Mowers
Bert Lindsay

Spares = Matt Cooke, Jeff Carter, Paul Martin

PP1: Ulf Dahlen - Billy McGimsie - Nikolai Drozdetsky - Mike O'Connell - Brian Campbell
PP2: Nick Mickoski - Mike Ribeiro - Marian Stastny - Steve Sullivan - Christian Ehrhoff

PK1: Larry Patey - Dave Tippett - Jack Evans - Garth Butcher
PK2: Sami Kapanen - Roland Pettersson - Walt Buswell - Mike O'Connell
PK3: Steve Sullivan - Nick Mickoski - D - D

vs.

Philadelphia Quakers
Coach: Red Berenson




Red Green-Robbie Ftorek(A)-Bob McDougall
Tony Tanti-Nicklas Backstrom-Charlie Sands
Mike Krushelnyski-Michal Pivonka-Anders Kallur
Rick Dudley-Stephane Yelle-Mark Johnson(A)
Yevgeny Zimin, Alexander Uvarov, Alexander Bodunov


Phat Wilson(C)-Alex Smith
Bill Juzda-Kim Johnsson
Drew Doughty-Jim Dorey
Hal Laycoe

Daren Puppa
Joe Daley


PP1: Green-Ftorek-McDougall
Wilson-Doughty

PP2: Tanti-Backstrom-Johnson
Smith-Dorey

PK1: Yelle-Kallur
Johnsson-Juzda

PK2: Krushelnyski-Pivonka
Smith-Wilson

PK3: Ftorek-Johnson
Juzda-Johnsson

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08-29-2011, 05:45 PM
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I expect a tough matchup this round. Neither team really has many holes in it at all. Good luck TDMM, let's have a fair, intense debate.

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08-29-2011, 07:13 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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This one should be fun!

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08-30-2011, 02:53 PM
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1st Lines

Green-Ftorek-McDougall

vs.

Mickoski-McGimsie-Drozdetsky

Green and Mickoski are pretty similar players. They're the hard workers on this line designed to get the puck to their more skilled teammates. I adjusted Mickoski's games played to 834, making his career adjusted PPG .5324. Green's is .5831. Remove Green's last season where he was a non-factor, and it goes up to .6464. Advantge to Redvers. But, Mickoski did it in the NHL for longer in a more competitive era. At the same time, Red Green has a very impressive NOHA career that has to be accounted for.

PlayerGamesGoalsAssistsPointsPPGDraft Position
Red Green214318612.9051,094
Bun Cook197714.7368210
Bill Cook171912311.823545
Shorty Green263511461.76921,204

Let's look at goalscoring and point percentages(their 3 best years)

Goals

Green: 69, 63, 46(total 178)
Mickoski: 59, 58, 50(total 167)

Points

Green: 81, 56, 47(total 184)
Mickoski: 58, 53, 52(total 163)

Both are advantages to Red Green. When looking at these, in addition to Red's strong NOHA resume, I think he is better offensively, even when you consider Mickoski's longevity at a more competitive NHL level. Both provide a good degree of physicality, Mickoski a little bit moreso. Mickoski also provides better two-way play. In terms of overall players, I think they're more or less a wash.

That brings us to Robbie Ftorek and Billy McGimsie. Both are very strong skaters and stickhandlers. Both are rather small as well. Since I can't win any debate with Ftorek as my center because everyone here hates the WHA, I'm not going to waste my time. McGimsie appears to be better offensively, but I have some questions. TDMM, who was McGimsie's competition in 02-03 and 03-04 when he led the league in goals? And who were some of the other players that were near the top of the points table in the other years? I honestly don't know the answer, I'd like to know. I also think it's important to note that McGimsie was playing in, at best, the 2nd beast league at the time. His Rat Portage teams were twice beaten by eastern team and were not as good as their opponents. But, Ftorek is a grittier player, and provides better two-way play. Robbie also provides more leadership in the locker room. I'm going to wait until TDMM answers my questions before passing judgement. It appears McGimsie's offense gives him an edge despite Ftorek bringing more intangibles to the table, but we'll see.

That brings us to the two all stars of the line, Drozdetsky and McDougall, maybe the 2 best RWers in the draft. Do we know why Tikhonov didn't like Drozdetsky? Was it his attitude? Was he an offense-only player? Was he selfish? Or just because Tikhonov was nuts? Drozdetsky's peak is impressive. How does it stack up to McDougall's? Drozdetsky finished 3rd in Soviet scoring twice, which is impressive. McDougall led his league in scoring once, was 3rd twice, and was 1st in goals/game another year. Certainly, Drozdetsky played in a much more competitive era, but is it enough to make up for McDougall's more impressive finishes? McDougall the 2nd highest scoring player of his era, being three one hundreths of a goal/game behind Haviland Routh. I can't help but think McDougall is a better offensive player. Neither player brings much in terms of intangibles to the table.

Overall, I'd call 1st lines are a very slight advantage to Philadelphia, for now. I'm willing to change this statement if McGimsie's offensive finishes were ahead of quality opponents or a group of nobodies. Green and Mickoski pretty much are a wash, I'll give McGimsie a slight advantage over Ftorek for now, and I think McDougall is better than Drozdetsky. I'd also say Philadelphia's group is a little better defensively due to Ftorek being the best defensive player on either line. Each line contains one two-way player and two average defensive players. But, Ftorek is better defensively than Mickoski considering his 6th in Selke voting.

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08-30-2011, 04:34 PM
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Well, it seems like our opponent has started off with some extravagant claims. I'll go into them in more detail later, but for now, two points:

1) The player by player comparison obscures the fact that Philadelphia's top line as a whole is going to be quite soft in the corners (though not as bad as Philadelphia's second line).

2) I find it interesting that Billy can somehow slag on Billy McGimsie's competition, yet purport to believe that Bob McDougall is the best winger in the draft based on his scoring relative to even weaker competition.

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08-30-2011, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well, it seems like our opponent has started off with some extravagant claims. I'll go into them in more detail later, but for now, two points:

1) The player by player comparison obscures the fact that Philadelphia's top line as a whole is going to be quite soft in the corners (though not as bad as Philadelphia's second line).
Red Green is average in this regard. Nothing special, but he will suffice. Add in the fact that Robbie Ftorek was a fearless forechecker that wasn't afraid to battle despite his size, I don't see the problem here.

Quote:
2) I find it interesting that Billy can somehow slag on Billy McGimsie's competition, yet purport to believe that Bob McDougall is the best winger in the draft based on his scoring relative to even weaker competition.
That's why I asked what his competition was. I know next to nothing about the Manitoba/western leagues, and you provided a little bit of context about his finishes, but not much. My knowledge is limited to the eastern leagues. McDougall didn't play against the best competition, but it still wasn't bad. If his competition is so bad, why did the one guy ahead of him in goals/game pre-1899 and 6 guys behind him get taken in the ATD with an ADP of 593, whereas he was selected at 1,010? I'd love to know.


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08-30-2011, 06:31 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
McDougall didn't play against the best competition, but it still wasn't bad. If his competition is so bad, why did the one guy ahead of him in goals/game pre-1899 and 6 guys behind him get taken in the ATD with an ADP of 593, whereas he was selected at 1,010? I'd love to know.
These are Iain's numbers for the main Kenora Thistles, so just players on McGimsie's own team:

Quote:
McGimsie: 109 goals in 57 games (1.91 per game)
Phillips: 98 in 53 (1.85)
Griffis: 45 in 43 (1.05)
Hooper: 47 in 65 (0.72)
Undrafted: 28 in 41 (0.68)
Undrafted: 3 in 38 (0.08)

Bear in mind Phillips, Hooper and Undrafted all played cover-point at some time or another.
I guess I should be asking why Tommy Phillips is regularly drafted in the Top 250 when McGimsie scored at very similar rate? It's because Phillips had elite intangibles and was a LW.

Your "the closest comparables to McDougall have an ADP of 593" is a fine bit of statistical smoke and ignores the fact that the guys who were drafted high were drafted for their intangibles, not their goal scoring. And McDougall doesn't seem to have those intangibles.

Alf Smith (282)? Drafted for his elite intangibles
Harry Westwick (434)? Drafted for his intangibles
Graham Drinkwater (443)? Drafted as a defenseman!!!! (Are we supposed to be impressed that McDougall scored more goals than guy who often played as and is always drafted as a defenseman?)

So the proper comparisons for McDougall would be McKerrow (573), Trihey (784), Swift (823), Routh (834).

And given Trihey's role as captain of multiple Cup winners, it's easy to see why he's drafted first.

So that leaves Clare McKerrow, Dolly Swift and Haviland Routh as McDougall's actual comparables. Not nearly as impressive, huh? Unless someone knows something about McKerrow that I don't, I have no idea why he was drafted as high as he was. Yeah, I guess McDougall should have been drafted right up there with Swift and Routh. But the "ADP of 593" thing is a joke.

Now a real question would be this:

Why did Drozdetsky fall so far behind countrymen Balderis (used on a first line in the ATD!) and Kapustin? That one, I honestly don't know for sure.


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08-30-2011, 06:48 PM
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The early era guys - an attempt to account for competition

MCDOUGALL

1895
1. Haviland Routh = 19 goals in 8 games
2. Norman Rankin = 11 goals in 8 games
3. Arthur Swift = 10 goals in 6
3. Herbert Russell = 10 goals in 8 games
3. Robert MacDougall = 10 goals in 8 games

As we can see, MacDougall's vaunted 3rd place finish is a tie for 3rd, with a lower goals per game average than Dolly Swift, and only 53% of Routh's total.

1896
1. Robert MacDougall = 10 goals in 6 games
2. Clare McKerrow = 8 goals in 6 games
3. Shirley Davidson = 8 goals in 7 games
4. Arthur Swift = 8 goals in 8 games
5. Harry Westwick = 8 goals in 8 games

MacDougall's best season, though we should all note that it involved a sample size of 6 games.

1898
1. Cam Davidson = 14 goals in 7 games
2. Clare McKerrow = 13 goals in 8 games
3. Robert McDougall = 12 goals in 8 games
4. Desse Brown = 11 goals in 8 games
5. Graham Drinkwater = 10 goals in 8 games
5. James Gillespie = 10 goals in 8 games

MacDougall had 86% of the goals of 1st place Cam Davidson - a man who I believe has never been drafted (or does he have a nickname he's usually drafted under)?

1899
MacDougall finished 7th with 7 goals, 39% of what 1st place Harry Trihey had. Sure, he was 1st in goals per game with 7 goals in only 2 games, but... it was 2 freaking games! And he didn't even blow away the competition, 2nd place in overall points Clare McKerrow had 12 goals in 4 games, which I think is far more impressive.

MCGIMSIE

I'm going to use this source: http://hobokin.net/kenorastats1.html for McGimsie's competition, with a correction to Tommy Phillips' numbers in 04-05, as per Iain.

1902-03: McGimsie placed 1st according to Iain, but I couldn't find a source for league scoring.

1903 Challenge Match vs. the Ottawa Silver Seven
: Scored 3 of his team's 4 goals over two games. Yes, that's the dynasty Silver Seven - the best team in all of hockey and McGimsie scored 3 goals against them. Seems like he could do just fine against good competition. By the way, does MacDougall have any record in clutch games to speak of?

1903-04
Billy McGimsie = 14 goals (Iain has McGimsie with 16 goals, still good for 1st)
Harry Bright = 13 goals
Si Griffis = 12 goals
Jack Brodie = 9 goals

1904-05
Tommy Phillips = 29
Billy McGimsie = 28
Billy Breen = 19
Si Griffis = 15
Clint Bennest = 14

1905-06
Billy Breen = 28
Tommy Phillips = 23
Billy McGimsie = 19 (Iain has him with 21 goals, still 3rd)
Billy Kean = 11
Si Griffis = 8

As Iain said, the Manitoba League was basically, Tommy Phillips, Billy McGimsie, and Billy Breen, then everyone else when it came to goal scoring.

COMPARING THEM
  • McDougall percentages: 100, 86 (of Cam Davidson), 53 (of Haviland Routh), 39 (of Harry Trihey)
  • McGimsie percentages: 100, 100, 97 (of Tommy Phillips), 68/75* (of Billy Breen) *depending on which number you use
  • Note on competition: McDougall's league was probably the best league in the world, McGimsie's league wasn't. But that doesn't necessarily mean McDougall's league was better than McGimsie's, considering how much hockey advanced between the 1890s and the 1900s. For example, Tommy Phillips was much better than anyone who played in McDougall's league.
  • Even if McDougall's league was stronger (and neither of us really knows for sure), it certainly wasn't stronger enough to overcome how much more thoroughly McGimsie dominated his league.

CONCLUSION
  • Billy McGimsie was at least as good a goal scorer as Bob McDougall
  • Anecdotally, McGimsie is known to have been at least as much of a playmaker as a goal scorer; McDougall seems to have nothing but the goals he scored
  • McGimsie was a relative superstar out west (along with Si Griffis, below Tommy Phillips)
  • McDougall's own profile talks about him being overshadowed by teammate defensemen Mike Grant and Graham Drinkwater

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08-30-2011, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
These are Iain's numbers for the main Kenora Thistles, so just players on McGimsie's own team:



I guess I should be asking why Tommy Phillips is regularly drafted in the Top 250 when McGimsie scored at very similar rate? It's because Phillips had elite intangibles and was a LW.

Your "the closest comparables to McDougall have an ADP of 593" is a fine bit of statistical smoke and ignores the fact that the guys who were drafted high were drafted for their intangibles, not their goal scoring. And McDougall doesn't seem to have those intangibles.

Alf Smith (282)? Drafted for his elite intangibles
Harry Westwick (434)? Drafted for his intangibles
Graham Drinkwater (443)? Drafted as a defenseman!!!! (Are we supposed to be impressed that McDougall scored more goals than guy who often played as and is always drafted as a defenseman?)

So the proper comparisons for McDougall would be McKerrow (573), Trihey (784), Swift (823), Routh (834).

And given Trihey's role as captain of multiple Cup winners, it's easy to see why he's drafted first.

So that leaves Clare McKerrow, Dolly Swift and Haviland Routh as McDougall's actual comparables. Not nearly as impressive, huh? Unless someone knows something about McKerrow that I don't, I have no idea why he was drafted as high as he was. Yeah, I guess McDougall should have been drafted right up there with Swift and Routh. But the "ADP of 593" thing is a joke.

Now a real question would be this:

Why did Drozdetsky fell so far behind countrymen Balderis (used on a first line in the ATD!) and Kapustin? That one, I honestly don't know for sure.
Let's not forget that McGimsie was also known MORE as a playmaker, stickhandler, and speedy skater than as a goal scorer, and he STILL has that goal scoring record.

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08-30-2011, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Let's not forget that McGimsie was also known MORE as a playmaker, stickhandler, and speedy skater than as a goal scorer, and he STILL has that goal scoring record.
It's a shame that assists weren't recorded back then, but we do know that McGimsie would have had at least 2 primary assists in game 2 of 2 of the 1906 Challenge series that Kenora won, based on the brief report we have in his profile.

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08-30-2011, 07:37 PM
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Philadelphia's Achilles Heel

Philadelphia's Top 2 Lines are going to get roughed up

Hockey is a physical sport, a sport where a large percentage of the game is spent battling for the puck "in the trenches" (in the corners, in front of the net, etc). And the ability to battle for the puck is a distinct weakness for Philadelphia's top 2 lines.

Joe Pelletier's profile of Robbie Ftorek starts with the damning phrase, "Although he was too small to make a major impact at the National Hockey League level..." Ouch. Now, small players have carved out successful careers at high level of hockey, but if I had drafted Ftorek, I'd sure want to give him protection. Philadelphia has not done this. McDougall is an offense-only player. Philadelphia is relying entirely on Red Green to provide a physical presence, and I think he's a weak one.

One vague quote about "handling the rough stuff" is perhaps enough to make Green a power-forward-lite, but next to someone like Ftorek whose size was a problem in real life, I'd want someone tougher. In fact, there is specific reason to believe that Red Green does was not an intangibles-laden player. In Green's best season by far (1924-25), he finished 5th in scoring, but only 14th in Hart voting. His linemate and brother, Shorty Green, was 8th in scoring but finished 9th in Hart voting, so obviously Shorty brought much more away from the puck than Red.

I can definitely buy Red Green as something of a physical presence and a puck winner, but I certainly don't buy him as adequate protection for a guy like Ftorek, whose size was a known issue in the NHL. I can see Eden Hall's more rough and tumble defensemen like Jack Evans and Garth Butcher throwing Ftorek around like a ragdoll and his linemates not being able to do anything about it.

Philadelphia's second line appears to lack a puck winner entirely. Backstrom's Capitals are the perfect example of a team that has the talent to dominate the regular season, but other than Ovechkin (who isn't here today), lacks the grit to do anything in the postseason. Tanti was an offensively-inclined player who would throw big hits sometimes, but I don't think was known as a guy who would battle for pucks. Charlie Sands is a good defensive conscience who is adequate offensively, but where is the grit? Who on Philadelphia's second line would dare battle in the trenches with the likes of Jack Evans?

Eden Hall, on the other hand, does not have such a problem. While McGimsie, Drozdetsky, Stastny, and Ribeiro are all strictly scorers, Mickoski and Dahlen are two of the best diggers in the draft.

Mickoski:
"had size and also speed."
"6'1" frame was difficult to bump off the puck"
"a fine two- way worker"
"Nicholas Mickoski, the 30 year old Winnipeg digger who for three seasons was the most diligent worker on the Chicago Black Hawks, labored long and hard again last night,"

I have a whole section of Dahlen's profile on his boardwork and am not going to post it all, but I'll post some of it here:

"he used great balance and core body strength to protect the puck with his body expertly. He was extremely effective down low and in the corners and on the boards. He would then drive to the net or find an open man with a strong pass. In a different era he would have been the perfect fit to compliment the Sedin Twins."
"Ulf Dahlen, a big power forward who scored more than 300 goals in 900-plus NHL games, was the pioneer of the 10 and 2." The 10-2 is the style of footwork NHL players now use to protect the puck behind the net.
"When Ulf Dahlen goes into the corner for a loose puck, he always seems to come out with it. Considered one of the top puck-protection men in the league..."

Conclusion: Eden Hall's defensemen have the ability to force Philadelphia's scoring lines into the type of perimeter game that does not succeed in the playoffs. Eden Hall's scoring lines do not have such a problem.

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08-30-2011, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
These are Iain's numbers for the main Kenora Thistles, so just players on McGimsie's own team:



I guess I should be asking why Tommy Phillips is regularly drafted in the Top 250 when McGimsie scored at very similar rate? It's because Phillips had elite intangibles and was a LW.
That's why I said I wanted to see what his competition was. After seeing that, I'll easily concede that McGimsie is a superior offensive player to Ftorek.

Quote:
Your "the closest comparables to McDougall have an ADP of 593" is a fine bit of statistical smoke and ignores the fact that the guys who were drafted high were drafted for their intangibles, not their goal scoring. And McDougall doesn't seem to have those intangibles.

Alf Smith (282)? Drafted for his elite intangibles
Harry Westwick (434)? Drafted for his intangibles
Graham Drinkwater (443)? Drafted as a defenseman!!!! (Are we supposed to be impressed that McDougall scored more goals than guy who often played as and is always drafted as a defenseman?)

So the proper comparisons for McDougall would be McKerrow (573), Trihey (784), Swift (823), Routh (834).
Drinkwater is in that table because he was a drafted player whose stats were provided in this thread, which I linked to in my bio and said that's where I got it from. If intangibles are so important relative to offense, why are you so convinced that Ftorek is that much worse than McGimsie?

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=6678639

Quote:
And given Trihey's role as captain of multiple Cup winners, it's easy to see why he's drafted first.
McDougall won 5 cups himself. Trihey being captain of 3 cup winning teams certainly isn't enough rationale for me at least to see why he is easily drafted first considering the gap in offense.

Quote:
So that leaves Clare McKerrow, Dolly Swift and Haviland Routh as McDougall's actual comparables. Not nearly as impressive, huh? Unless someone knows something about McKerrow that I don't, I have no idea why he was drafted as high as he was. Yeah, I guess McDougall should have been drafted right up there with Swift and Routh. But the "ADP of 593" thing is a joke.
So you're saying that McDougall should be in the 800-900 range in the ATD?

Quote:
Now a real question would be this:

Why did Drozdetsky fall so far behind countrymen Balderis (used on a first line in the ATD!) and Kapustin? That one, I honestly don't know for sure.
Balderis is sorely out of place on an ATD 1st line, even a 40 team ATD. That's undeniable. Maybe it's because Balderis' domestic GPG of .721 blows Drozdetsky's .501 out of the water.(I'm aware Drozdetsky has a higher International GPG .587 to .503). The international thing is easily explained by the following:

Quote:
There was great political divide between the two societies under communist rule, with the Latvians none too happy with Russia. So when the Soviet hockey authorities transferred Balderis (and a coach named Viktor Tikhonov) from Dynamo Riga, where he quickly became a living legend, to CSKA Moscow "in the interests of the national team," there was no shortage of outrage.

Balderis had no choice in the matter, but he played for the national team in a curious fashion. He would put on amazing displays of individualistic skills and rushes, almost toying with opposition, but would rarely score.

As the great book Kings of the Ice suggests, "it was his way of saying to the authorities, 'You forced me to be here, so you get what you deserve."

"I can get away with it on CSKA. If I don't score, Mikhailov, Petrov or Kharlamov will," Balderis added.

The Balderis experiment with the Red Army team lasted only three years, from 1977 through 1980 before he was returned to Riga, and for all intents and purposes dropped from the national team.
Balderis just didn't want to be there, and didn't play to his potential on the national team by design.

As for Kapustin, his domestic GPG is better than Drozdetsky, and international is very close(domestic .538 to .501 and international .577 to .587). I think it was you, it might have been seventies, that said it means something just to be making the national team in the Soviet Union. Kapustin played almost double the amount of games internationally that Drozdetsky did, and maintained a very similar scoring clip. Longevity. Kapustin spent 13 years on the Red Army team, and Drozdetsky just 5. You still didn't address my concerns about why Drozdetsky was, for all intents and purposes, kicked off the national team.


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08-30-2011, 08:29 PM
  #13
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[QUOTE=TheDevilMadeMe;36319835]
Quote:
MCDOUGALL

1895
1. Haviland Routh = 19 goals in 8 games
2. Norman Rankin = 11 goals in 8 games
3. Arthur Swift = 10 goals in 6
3. Herbert Russell = 10 goals in 8 games
3. Robert MacDougall = 10 goals in 8 games

As we can see, MacDougall's vaunted 3rd place finish is a tie for 3rd, with a lower goals per game average than Dolly Swift, and only 53% of Routh's total.
Valid point.
Quote:
1896
1. Robert MacDougall = 10 goals in 6 games
2. Clare McKerrow = 8 goals in 6 games
3. Shirley Davidson = 8 goals in 7 games
4. Arthur Swift = 8 goals in 8 games
5. Harry Westwick = 8 goals in 8 games

MacDougall's best season, though we should all note that it involved a sample size of 6 games.
I don't see why him playing 6 games matters at all whatsoever. Doesn't it say that his season is that much more impressive that he didn't just lead in goals/game, but in overall scoring as well, playing just 6 games?

Quote:
1899
MacDougall finished 7th with 7 goals, 39% of what 1st place Harry Trihey had. Sure, he was 1st in goals per game with 7 goals in only 2 games, but... it was 2 freaking games! And he didn't even blow away the competition, 2nd place in overall points Clare McKerrow had 12 goals in 4 games, which I think is far more impressive.
McDougall scored at a higher clip than anyone else that year. I don't care how many games he played.

Quote:
MCGIMSIE

I'm going to use this source: http://hobokin.net/kenorastats1.html for McGimsie's competition, with a correction to Tommy Phillips' numbers in 04-05, as per Iain.

1902-03: McGimsie placed 1st according to Iain, but I couldn't find a source for league scoring.
I'm going to need a legit source for this or for Iain to validate this to believe it.


Quote:
1903 Challenge Match vs. the Ottawa Silver Seven
Quote:
: Scored 3 of his team's 4 goals over two games. Yes, that's the dynasty Silver Seven - the best team in all of hockey and McGimsie scored 3 goals against them. Seems like he could do just fine against good competition. By the way, does MacDougall have any record in clutch games to speak of?
I don't believe there is a full record of his playoff exploits, the only thing that I can find is he had 1 goal in 1 game in 83-84 and 3 goals in 2 games in 98-99.

Quote:
1903-04
Billy McGimsie = 14 goals (Iain has McGimsie with 16 goals, still good for 1st)
Harry Bright = 13 goals
Si Griffis = 12 goals
Jack Brodie = 9 goals
Okay, so he beat out 2 guys that have never been drafted in any draft here before and a defenseman? Hardly impressive at all.

Quote:
1904-05
Tommy Phillips = 29
Billy McGimsie = 28
Billy Breen = 19
Si Griffis = 15
Clint Bennest = 14
Better. By the way, do we have a source for games played to determine goals/game for those guys? That would certainly provide some more concise context in which to judge them.
Quote:
1905-06
Billy Breen = 28
Tommy Phillips = 23
Billy McGimsie = 19 (Iain has him with 21 goals, still 3rd)
Billy Kean = 11
Si Griffis = 8

As Iain said, the Manitoba League was basically, Tommy Phillips, Billy McGimsie, and Billy Breen, then everyone else when it came to goal scoring.
So you admit that McGimsie had no depth of competition in this league? I see 3 total relevant players that he had to compete with for finishes, one of them being a defenseman.

Quote:
COMPARING THEM
  • McDougall percentages: 100, 86 (of Cam Davidson), 53 (of Haviland Routh), 39 (of Harry Trihey)
  • McGimsie percentages: 100, 100, 97 (of Tommy Phillips), 68/75* (of Billy Breen) *depending on which number you use
  • Again, see my note about quality and depth of competition. You accuse me of statistical smoke, and you're using it yourself here. That 39% is as deceiving a number as it gets. McDougall led the league in goals/game!


    Quote:
  • Note on competition: McDougall's league was probably the best league in the world, McGimsie's league wasn't. But that doesn't necessarily mean McDougall's league was better than McGimsie's, considering how much hockey advanced between the 1890s and the 1900s. For example, Tommy Phillips was much better than anyone who played in McDougall's league.
  • See my note above about depth of competition. McGimsie basically had to compete against 2 forwards for scoring finishes, and one of them is another MLD forward! McDougall was competing against 6 legitimate ATD forwards, and one that shifted positions. I don't see how one could argue McGimsie's league is close to McDougall's in terms of competition.

    Quote:
  • Even if McDougall's league was stronger (and neither of us really knows for sure), it certainly wasn't stronger enough to overcome how much more thoroughly McGimsie dominated his league.
I think we can certainly make a pretty educated guess as to which league is better, and I think it's pretty obvious McDougall's was.

Quote:
CONCLUSION
  • Billy McGimsie was at least as good a goal scorer as Bob McDougall
  • Anecdotally, McGimsie is known to have been at least as much of a playmaker as a goal scorer; McDougall seems to have nothing but the goals he scored
  • McGimsie was a relative superstar out west (along with Si Griffis, below Tommy Phillips)
  • McDougall's own profile talks about him being overshadowed by teammate defensemen Mike Grant and Graham Drinkwater
Yet again, see my note about the depth and quality of competition. Who cares who was seen as a "superstar"? Why does that matter at all?

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08-30-2011, 09:23 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Philadelphia's Top 2 Lines are going to get roughed up

Hockey is a physical sport, a sport where a large percentage of the game is spent battling for the puck "in the trenches" (in the corners, in front of the net, etc). And the ability to battle for the puck is a distinct weakness for Philadelphia's top 2 lines.

Joe Pelletier's profile of Robbie Ftorek starts with the damning phrase, "Although he was too small to make a major impact at the National Hockey League level..." Ouch. Now, small players have carved out successful careers at high level of hockey, but if I had drafted Ftorek, I'd sure want to give him protection. Philadelphia has not done this. McDougall is an offense-only player. Philadelphia is relying entirely on Red Green to provide a physical presence, and I think he's a weak one.
Talk about selective use of a profile!! Convenient that you would choose to take that quote in my profile, but you ominously decided not to bring up these:

Quote:
They call him the " Bobby Clarke of the World Hockey Association," and he has scored more points (113) in a major league season than any other American-born player

What seems to please Ftorek most, though, is the fact that he is one of only six players—Canadian, American, whatever—to amass 100 points and 100 penalty minutes in the same season.

Ftorek is a tireless forechecker at one end and back-checker at the other, one of those players who always appear to be chasing—or being chased by—the puck.

He was skating around, this little guy with ragamuffin pants and hair sticking out of his helmet. He was a little bit of a loner. Very intense. A very, very intense kid. He was young at the time. Stubborn as hell, but he gave 100% all the time.

He may have only been 5-foot-9 and 155 pounds, but Robbie Ftorek was one of the hardest working players in the game. And what he lacked in size he made up for with his feisty playing style and fierce competitive nature.
Quote:
One vague quote about "handling the rough stuff" is perhaps enough to make Green a power-forward-lite, but next to someone like Ftorek whose size was a problem in real life, I'd want someone tougher. In fact, there is specific reason to believe that Red Green does was not an intangibles-laden player. In Green's best season by far (1924-25), he finished 5th in scoring, but only 14th in Hart voting. His linemate and brother, Shorty Green, was 8th in scoring but finished 9th in Hart voting, so obviously Shorty brought much more away from the puck than Red.
Green was also two times top 9 in PIM. That adds to his toughness resume. There's one quote in my bio that I think puts Green's role as a physical player into context.

Quote:
Green was again at his pestiferous tricks.
This suggests that Green continuously was at these "pestiferous tricks". I had to look up what pestiferous meant, and it is defined as:

Quote:
a. Producing or breeding infectious disease.
b. Infected with or contaminated by an epidemic disease.
2. Morally evil or deadly; pernicious.
3. Bothersome; annoying.
Green was a pest. He was annoying to play against, a guy that got under your skin.

Quote:
I can definitely buy Red Green as something of a physical presence and a puck winner, but I certainly don't buy him as adequate protection for a guy like Ftorek, whose size was a known issue in the NHL. I can see Eden Hall's more rough and tumble defensemen like Jack Evans and Garth Butcher throwing Ftorek around like a ragdoll and his linemates not being able to do anything about it.
Your brutes have to be able to catch Ftorek first. As I noted earlier, Ftorek did not back down from people, and the following shows that he was able to avoid physical contact as well.

Quote:
the crafty forward was lightning quick and able to avoid many hits during his career.
Ftorek never had a bodyguard during his time in the WHA as far as I know, and he survived pretty well there. I can play the same game with Billy McGimsie. In Mickoski's bio, I see the following words: "had size", "difficult to bump off the puck", "digger", "diligent worker", and "labored long and hard against last night". What exactly there makes Mickoski tough? It makes him a corner guy, but what there says that he will be sticking up for McGimsie or Drozdetsky when Bill Juzda, Jim Dorey, or Alex Smith is throwing them around? Juzda was a bone crushing hitter, Dorey was built like a caveman, thrived on the roughness of a game, and was described as an alley fighter. Smith thrived on a physical game as well.

Quote:
Philadelphia's second line appears to lack a puck winner entirely. Backstrom's Capitals are the perfect example of a team that has the talent to dominate the regular season, but other than Ovechkin (who isn't here today), lacks the grit to do anything in the postseason. Tanti was an offensively-inclined player who would throw big hits sometimes, but I don't think was known as a guy who would battle for pucks. Charlie Sands is a good defensive conscience who is adequate offensively, but where is the grit? Who on Philadelphia's second line would dare battle in the trenches with the likes of Jack Evans?
Because Backstrom is the main problem with the Capitals come playoff time and the offense is the reason why they can't win the playoffs. I literally laughed when I read that. The Capitals can't succeed in the playoffs because their defense is absolutely horrendous, and their goaltending is sub-par. Backstrom is the engine that makes this line go. So, let's take a look at how Backstrom has had success in his career. He passes it to a sniper(Tanti) while the 3rd guy on the line doesn't really figure much in the scoring, other than getting deflections off Ovechkin's shots or being on the receiving end of spectacular plays by the other two to get a tap-in goal. Backstrom doesn't need a puckwinner on his line to be successful. According to behindthenet.ca, here are the guys that played 3rd wheel to Ovechkin and Backstrom since Backstrom entered the NHL: Viktor Kozlov(certainly not a physical presence at all), Viktor Kozlov, Mike Knuble, and Mike Knuble. Backstrom's 2nd and 3rd best seasons were with Kozlov, and 1st and 4th were with Knuble. He had 157 points with Kozlov, and 166 with Knuble. I think that difference is easily more than explained by the fact that Backstrom played his first 2 years with Kozlov and his last 2 with Knuble. He simply got better as a player in those last 2 years than he was in his first two. I'm sure you'll be quick to point out the change in system that Boudreau implemented in 10-11 that hindered his offense. But, we don't know by how much, and I still think the fact that it's that close in his first 2 years compared to his next 2 equates to him making significant strides as a player more than anything. Nicklas Backstrom doesn't need a puck winner on his line to succeed. You say it won't work in the playoffs? Here are his numbers in the playoffs with each guy:

With Laich+Semin(07-08): 7GM, 4G, 2A, 6PTS(.857PPG)
With Kozlov+Ovechkin(08-09): 14GM, 3G, 12A, 15PTS(1.071PPG)
With Knuble+Ovechkin(09-10 and 10-11): 16GM, 5G, 6A, 11PTS (.6875PPG)

SO, Backstrom had his best playoff performance playing with the least physical 3rd member of his line of all the years if I'm equating Semin to Ovechkin in 07-08, which I think is fair since they play the same role on the line.

Quote:
Eden Hall, on the other hand, does not have such a problem. While McGimsie, Drozdetsky, Stastny, and Ribeiro are all strictly scorers, Mickoski and Dahlen are two of the best diggers in the draft.

Mickoski:
"had size and also speed."
"6'1" frame was difficult to bump off the puck"
"a fine two- way worker"
"Nicholas Mickoski, the 30 year old Winnipeg digger who for three seasons was the most diligent worker on the Chicago Black Hawks, labored long and hard again last night,"
Yes, Mickoski is a digger. I addressed this above. I don't see why he should be relied upon to protect his rather soft linemates from Bill Juzda and Jim Dorey.

Quote:
I have a whole section of Dahlen's profile on his boardwork and am not going to post it all, but I'll post some of it here:

"he used great balance and core body strength to protect the puck with his body expertly. He was extremely effective down low and in the corners and on the boards. He would then drive to the net or find an open man with a strong pass. In a different era he would have been the perfect fit to compliment the Sedin Twins."
"Ulf Dahlen, a big power forward who scored more than 300 goals in 900-plus NHL games, was the pioneer of the 10 and 2." The 10-2 is the style of footwork NHL players now use to protect the puck behind the net.
"When Ulf Dahlen goes into the corner for a loose puck, he always seems to come out with it. Considered one of the top puck-protection men in the league..."
Yes, Dahlen is a great digger, maybe the best in the draft. He's also not a bodyguard. You seem to be hellbent on the fact that Ftorek is going to get eaten alive by your Butcher and Tex. Who's going to protect that wuss Ribeiro? He's soft as tissue paper and a complete puss to be honest. Dahlen has a grand total of 4 fights in his entire NHL career, and surprisingly low PIM totals for someone that was such a good digger and supposed power forward. That leaves Marian Stastny, and I don't think anyone would call him a physical presence. So, when Jim Dorey takes Ribeiro's head off, who is going to do something about it?

Quote:
Conclusion: Eden Hall's defensemen have the ability to force Philadelphia's scoring lines into the type of perimeter game that does not succeed in the playoffs. Eden Hall's scoring lines do not have such a problem.
This point is addressed throughout this post.


Last edited by BillyShoe1721: 08-30-2011 at 09:46 PM.
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Old
08-30-2011, 10:41 PM
  #15
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2nd Lines

Tanti-Backstrom-Sands

vs.

Dahlen-Ribeiro-Stastny

Tanti and Dahlen's career adjusted PPG are nearly identical. Tanti's is .65997 and Dahlen's is .65940. But, if you look at their finishes, Tanti looks more impressive.

Tanti

Goals-11, 13, 23, 24, 24

Points%-73, 68, 52, 51
Goals%-75, 72, 64, 59, 50

Dahlen

Goals: 23, 43, 55, 75, 87

Goals%: 67, 52, 51, 44, 34
Points%: 58, 54, 50, 35, 26

Tanti is definitely the better offensive player, and I don't think it's that close. Tanti's adjusted PPG isn't a true indication of how good he was offensively because he played on such bad teams.

Both were very strong net presences on the PP and on even strength as well. Tanti was known as the master of the tip. Tanti's PP goals/game is .1693 to Dahlen's .1242. Their careers overlapped a little bit and this comparison benefits Tanti because of era, but I still think Tanti is the better PP performer even when considering era.

Now, the big edge Dahlen has on Tanti is board work and corner play. This advantage is big. One thing I notice about Dahlen is how shockingly few penalties he killed during his career. His profile suggests he is a two-way player, but in his entire career he was out for a grand total of 7 power play goals against!!! Now, I know that those two aren't necessarily indicative of each other, but they certainly do seem to have a pretty strong correlation. By comparison, Tanti, a guy that was average at best defensively, was out for 75 career PPG against. I just thought that was perplexing. But, neither of them are on PK units here. Judging who is the better player depends upon how much you value Dahlen's intangibles. Tanti has the offensive edge, but does Dahlen make up for it with his board work? I'm not so sure.

That takes us to Nicklas Backstrom and Mike Ribeiro. First, let's take a look at how they performed head to head since Backstrom entered the league:

Backstrom: 323GM, 87G, 236A, 323PTS(1PPG)
Ribeiro: 306GM, 87G, 198A, 285PTS(.931PPG)

Backstrom is better. Both of their entire careers:

Backstrom: 323GM, 87G, 236A, 323PTS(1PPG)
Ribeiro: 663GM, 169G, 361A, 530PTS(.799PPG[adjusted])

Backstrom is better. Here are some other metrics by which they can be measured:


Selke

Backstrom: 10, 28
Ribeiro: 54(4 voting points, 2 homer votes as far as I'm concerned)

All Star Voting

Backstrom: 4, 11
Ribeiro: none

Hart

Backstrom: 11
Ribeiro: none

All definitive edges to Backstrom. Overall, I think it's safe to say Backstrom is the superior overall player. Ribeiro's got just 3 more years of MLD-relevant stats that add longevity, and it isn't enough to make up for Backstrom's advantage in literally every other metric.

That takes us to Charlie Sands and Marian Stastny. Charlie Sands has an obvious edge in defensive play, and that is the major reason that I have him in my top 6. Offensively, I'll concede an advantage to Marian Stastny. In terms of toughness, neither one brings anything relevant to the table. They're about even in effectiveness in terms of their overall impact on each line.

Overall, I think the 2nd lines are an advantage to Philadelphia. Tanti is better offensively than Dahlen(Dahlen has board work and better defensive play, but I'm starting to question that defensive play), Backstrom is easily better than Ribeiro both offensively and defensively, and Sands and Stastny are more or less even. Philadelphia's group is definitely better defensively with Backstrom and Sands being strong two-way players, and Eden Hall only having Dahlen as a two-way player.

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08-30-2011, 11:28 PM
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How in gods name are you questioning Dahlen's defensive play? Defensive play=/= to PK ability. Craig Adams isn't a great defensive player, he's only a grinder, but he's a top PKer in the NHL. You expect Dahlen to be a net presence for every team he was ever on on the PP, play top 6 ES minutes, AND play PK time? Come on Billy. He'd be getting 25 mins a game doing that.

Everywhere you look online, Dahlen is good defensively.

"Dahlen has played for three different teams during his eight-year career, but not because his teams didn’t want him. On the contrary, he’s the type of player every GM wants—a gifted offensive player with a good head for defense. In short, Dahlen is the complete package."

"dependable vet two-way forward"

"During the early part of Halpern’s career, he centered a line that included veteran wingers Steve Konowalchuk and Ulf Dahlen. For a few seasons in the early part of the previous decade, that combination formed one of the league’s top shutdown trios. "

Like, get a ****ing clue.

It's also an absolute joke that you don't mention how Tanti is absolutely a negative in his own zone. He didn't give a damn about defense his entire career.

He was not at all a physical presence: "Often playing behind Rob Brown and Mark Recchi, and simply wasn't the type of player to fill the third line role as he wasn't great defensively nor a physical presence."

Tanti, in my opinion, is the prototypical goal accumulator on a bad team (think a better version of Alexei Ponikarovsky on the Leafs three years ago when he went to the Pens and couldn't score and ended up sitting the bench. Tanti got traded to a Pens team at age 26 and couldn't do much). He also isn't exactly a great even strength scorer either, (for instance, his 45 goal season he finished a solid 36th in ES goals, and by the way I'm not claiming Dahlen to be a wizard in that realm either). If you're going to compare lines, compare them at ES where they actually matter, not just blind totals to make your players look better.

Absolute ****ing joke.

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08-31-2011, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
McDougall scored at a higher clip than anyone else that year. I don't care how many games he played.
What if I told you every single one of his goals were scored in a 16-0 slaughter of the worst defensive team in the league?

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08-31-2011, 08:55 AM
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The Ulf Dahlen I remember was definitely great along the boards with that unusual skating style of his and solid defensively.. but I don't remember him as a power forward in the classic sense, or as someone who was physically intimidating at all.

I could be misremembering (thanks GWB).

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08-31-2011, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Green was a pest. He was annoying to play against, a guy that got under your skin.
That doesn't mean he can handle being the primary physical presence and puck-winner on a scoring line.

Think of all the recent NHL pests. How many of them would you want as the primary physical presence on a line? How many of them would you count on to win battles in the corner? Not very many....

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08-31-2011, 12:37 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
How in gods name are you questioning Dahlen's defensive play? Defensive play=/= to PK ability. Craig Adams isn't a great defensive player, he's only a grinder, but he's a top PKer in the NHL. You expect Dahlen to be a net presence for every team he was ever on on the PP, play top 6 ES minutes, AND play PK time? Come on Billy. He'd be getting 25 mins a game doing that.

Everywhere you look online, Dahlen is good defensively.

"Dahlen has played for three different teams during his eight-year career, but not because his teams didn’t want him. On the contrary, he’s the type of player every GM wants—a gifted offensive player with a good head for defense. In short, Dahlen is the complete package."

"dependable vet two-way forward"

"During the early part of Halpern’s career, he centered a line that included veteran wingers Steve Konowalchuk and Ulf Dahlen. For a few seasons in the early part of the previous decade, that combination formed one of the league’s top shutdown trios. "

Like, get a ****ing clue.

It's also an absolute joke that you don't mention how Tanti is absolutely a negative in his own zone. He didn't give a damn about defense his entire career.

He was not at all a physical presence: "Often playing behind Rob Brown and Mark Recchi, and simply wasn't the type of player to fill the third line role as he wasn't great defensively nor a physical presence."

Tanti, in my opinion, is the prototypical goal accumulator on a bad team (think a better version of Alexei Ponikarovsky on the Leafs three years ago when he went to the Pens and couldn't score and ended up sitting the bench. Tanti got traded to a Pens team at age 26 and couldn't do much). He also isn't exactly a great even strength scorer either, (for instance, his 45 goal season he finished a solid 36th in ES goals, and by the way I'm not claiming Dahlen to be a wizard in that realm either). If you're going to compare lines, compare them at ES where they actually matter, not just blind totals to make your players look better.

Absolute ****ing joke.
Hostile much? Geez. Dahlen is easily a vastly superior defensive player to Tanti. Is that good enough? Point to me exactly where I said Tanti was a physical presence. That's right, I didn't. I said there was typically a correlation between being a strong two-way player and being a PKer. There are certainly exceptions, and Dahlen seems to be one of them. Am I not the only one that finds it surprising Dahlen was out for a grand total of 7 power play goals against?

I could say the same thing about Dahlen on the PP where he benefited greatly. 39.87% of Dahlen's goals came on the PP, and 41.11% of Tanti's came on the PP. Not exactly a large difference. Are we punishing these two guys because they were good in front of the net on the PP?

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08-31-2011, 12:45 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
The Ulf Dahlen I remember was definitely great along the boards with that unusual skating style of his and solid defensively.. but I don't remember him as a power forward in the classic sense, or as someone who was physically intimidating at all.

I could be misremembering (thanks GWB).
Dahlen definitely wasn't a "power forward" in terms of delivering punishment - he was a regular Lady Byng candidate. But while he didn't give it out, he was elite at taking punishment without coughing up the puck, something that will be quite handy against Bill Juzda:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Vogel, Capitals official website
It’s amazing how much physical punishment Dahlen can take in the high traffic areas without coughing up the puck, going down to the ice or retaliating. He is one of the league’s most gentlemanly players. In nearly 800 NHL games, he has taken only 202 minutes worth of penalties – none this season. On the other hand, he is constantly frustrating opponents into taking penalties. Dahlen and his linemates are capable of cycling the puck for the better part of a shift and tired defenders do desperate things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyplayer.com
Also, going to the corner often means taking a hit, which is something else Dahlen feels he can use to his advantage. After a player throws a hit, it takes him a moment to regroup. Dahlen uses that split second to get better control of the puck or make a pass.

If you know a hit is coming, Dahlen advises, don’t leave the boards.

“You try to be close to the boards,” he says. “That makes it easier to be hit.”

Why? Because you are much more likely to stay on your feet if the boards are right there, propping you up.

At 6’3” and 200 pounds, Dahlen is no small guy in the corner. But even he knows you can’t prepare yourself for every bone-cruncher.

“Well, there is no good way to take a hit,” he says with a laugh.

Once he’s taken the hit and won the puck with his feet, Dahlen’s next task is either to make a pass or drive to the net.

....

Dahlen says one of the things he always does in the corner is buy time, letting the rest of his team gain the zone and set up. This delaying is even more important on the power play, so he urges players not to feel rushed in the corner.

And again, if a defenseman wants to put the body on you during the power play, it’s to your advantage. A four-on-three is better than a five on four, and if someone leaves the penalty-killing formation to hit you, that’s what you’re left with.

“The perfect thing is to get someone to hit you,” says Dahlen.

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08-31-2011, 12:49 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
The Ulf Dahlen I remember was definitely great along the boards with that unusual skating style of his and solid defensively.. but I don't remember him as a power forward in the classic sense, or as someone who was physically intimidating at all.

I could be misremembering (thanks GWB).
That's pretty much the impression that I got. He actually seemed like he shied away from confrontation and let the other guy take penalties hacking at him instead of fighting back. That's all well and good, and should help Eden Hall, but it still doesn't show me who is going to protect Mike Ribeiro, Marian Stastny, Billy McGimsie, and Nikolai Drozdetsky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That doesn't mean he can handle being the primary physical presence and puck-winner on a scoring line.

Think of all the recent NHL pests. How many of them would you want as the primary physical presence on a line? How many of them would you count on to win battles in the corner? Not very many....
When I hear the word pest, I think of Burrows, Carcillo, Avery, Kaleta, Lapierre, Cooke, and Marchand. With the exception of Avery and maybe Lapierre, I think all of those guys are willing to go into the corner and dig. They might not always win like an Ulf Dahlen will, but their work combined with Robbie Ftorek's willingness to go into the corners despite his size will provide enough board work for the line to function well.

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08-31-2011, 12:50 PM
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Hostile much? Geez. Dahlen is easily a vastly superior defensive player to Tanti. Is that good enough? Point to me exactly where I said Tanti was a physical presence. That's right, I didn't. I said there was typically a correlation between being a strong two-way player and being a PKer. There are certainly exceptions, and Dahlen seems to be one of them. Am I not the only one that finds it surprising Dahlen was out for a grand total of 7 power play goals against?

I could say the same thing about Dahlen on the PP where he benefited greatly. 39.87% of Dahlen's goals came on the PP, and 41.11% of Tanti's came on the PP. Not exactly a large difference. Are we punishing these two guys because they were good in front of the net on the PP?
Big strong players are often more effective defensively at even strength than on the PK. See Bobby Holik and Randy McKay for two more examples. Bobby Holik was considered the best even strength shut down center in the league for a few seasons, but didn't kill penalties.

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08-31-2011, 12:58 PM
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Big strong players are often more effective defensively at even strength than on the PK. See Bobby Holik and Randy McKay for two more examples. Bobby Holik was considered the best even strength shut down center in the league for a few seasons, but didn't kill penalties.
Holik did kill penalties, just not in NJ. John Madden and Jay Pandolfo had monopolies on the #1 PK unit for NJ, where they regularly killed 3 minutes a game and the next highest guy usually didn't even have 2. That leads me to believe(and you can probably confirm this) that the units went Madden-Pandolfo, then some combination of Elias/Brylin/Nemchinov then Madden-Pandolfo again. Once Holik left NJ, his PK TOI/G finishes were: 5, 4, 4, 5, and 4.

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08-31-2011, 12:59 PM
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That's pretty much the impression that I got. He actually seemed like he shied away from confrontation and let the other guy take penalties hacking at him instead of fighting back. That's all well and good, and should help Eden Hall, but it still doesn't show me who is going to protect Mike Ribeiro, Marian Stastny, Billy McGimsie, and Nikolai Drozdetsky.
Dahlen was famous for baiting other players into hitting him, so he could pass to the open man; doesn't sound like "shying away" to me.

If you want someone who can punch your guys in the face, Jack Evans, Garth Butcher, or Randy McKay will be happy to. You don't need someone willing to drop the gloves on every line, especially in the playoffs. But you do need the ability to win puck battles.

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When I hear the word pest, I think of Burrows, Carcillo, Avery, Kaleta, Lapierre, Cooke, and Marchand. With the exception of Avery and maybe Lapierre, I think all of those guys are willing to go into the corner and dig. They might not always win like an Ulf Dahlen will, but their work combined with Robbie Ftorek's willingness to go into the corners despite his size will provide enough board work for the line to function well.
Ftorek might be willing, but is he able? We have specific reason to believe his size was a detriment to him once he left the wide open WHA and moved to the NHL. If he tries to go into the corner hard with Jack Evans, he's going to get pasted.

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