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Old
08-28-2011, 09:06 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by CountDownToImpact View Post
His speed and grit never jumped out at me. Like when you watched Eberle and Hall you said to yourself now these guys are going to be stars in the NHL. MPS outside of the Pre-season never showed me that "wow" factor like those two. Maybe in a year or two he will be better who knows. But as of right now we really don't need him A. B, it would take alot to get him out of Edmonton.
i know, i was just pointing out that if he does have a breakout year (which i think he will soon, big guys take a bit to catch up) it'll take a LOT more to move him (may be impossible)

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08-29-2011, 08:16 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
voracek and horcoff have vastly different trade values...

i get what your saying, but i think its somewhere between voracek and couturier (plus the first). I just dont know who else we got that fits in between those two (value wise)

Voracek + BOB + 1st (i know im REALLY sounding like a leafer now lol)

but wouldnt edmonton like a goalie?
I was just throwing names out there. Doesn't have to be Horcoff, doesn't have to be Voracek. I'm just saying that Edmonton is not moving a high ceiling young player for a middle of the road young player and a draft pick. It took Mike Richards to get Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds. While I think Schenn is and will be better than MPS, they aren't that far off at this point considering their age and lack of NHL experience. I don't think the Kings would have accepted Voracek and a first for Schenn and I don't think Edmonton would accept the same for MPS. Only way he is going anywhere is if someone overpays a ton (like Giroux and JvR, which obviously wouldn't and shouldn't happen) or if they trade his rights when he is RFA or trade him @ the deadline before his RFA season because they know they won't be able to sign him.

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08-29-2011, 08:24 AM
  #28
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You are overrating MPS. He has a higher ceiling at this point in time than Voracek but its not as wide as you are making it sound. Voracek is a better player right now and should still improve a bit

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08-29-2011, 10:41 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
You are overrating MPS. He has a higher ceiling at this point in time than Voracek but its not as wide as you are making it sound. Voracek is a better player right now and should still improve a bit
Voracek has a few years on MPS so it's tough to compare these two very young players. When Voracek was MPS's age he played for a playoff team and scored about the same amount of points as MPS did on the worst team in the league. I'd be willing to bet that MPS scores at at least the same pace as Voracek in this coming season. I'm not knocking Voracek at all. I am psyched we got him and he is going to be a good player, I just think MPS is going to be much better.

The bottom line is, on any other team besides Edmonton and a few others, MPS is the #1 prospect. Since Edmonton has had so many top picks in recent years, that isn't the case, but put him on about 25 other teams and he's #1. Teams don't trade prospects like that for 2nd liners and a pick. And if they do, it's highway robbery. Like I've said before, would you trade Schenn or Couturier for a player like Voracek and a mid-late first round pick? I'm guessing no. Just like Edmonton wouldn't trade that for MPS (unless its for his rights when he is RFA or the trade deadline before if they know they won't sign him).

EDIT: Ok, maybe I'm wrong. I posted the gist of this discussion in the Edmonton trades thread and they seem to land somewhere in between my views of his higher value and others' view of his lesser value. At least one person said Voracek AND Coburn plus a first or second might be ok and another said they wouldn't deal him at this point unless a star player was coming back. I guess his value will be more easily determined after this season where he'll likely get more minutes and the team should be a little better around him.


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08-29-2011, 12:17 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Voracek has a few years on MPS so it's tough to compare these two very young players. When Voracek was MPS's age he played for a playoff team and scored about the same amount of points as MPS did on the worst team in the league. I'd be willing to bet that MPS scores at at least the same pace as Voracek in this coming season. I'm not knocking Voracek at all. I am psyched we got him and he is going to be a good player, I just think MPS is going to be much better.

The bottom line is, on any other team besides Edmonton and a few others, MPS is the #1 prospect. Since Edmonton has had so many top picks in recent years, that isn't the case, but put him on about 25 other teams and he's #1. Teams don't trade prospects like that for 2nd liners and a pick. And if they do, it's highway robbery. Like I've said before, would you trade Schenn or Couturier for a player like Voracek and a mid-late first round pick? I'm guessing no. Just like Edmonton wouldn't trade that for MPS (unless its for his rights when he is RFA or the trade deadline before if they know they won't sign him).

EDIT: Ok, maybe I'm wrong. I posted the gist of this discussion in the Edmonton trades thread and they seem to land somewhere in between my views of his higher value and others' view of his lesser value. At least one person said Voracek AND Coburn plus a first or second might be ok and another said they wouldn't deal him at this point unless a star player was coming back. I guess his value will be more easily determined after this season where he'll likely get more minutes and the team should be a little better around him.
i really think voracek + Coburn/BOB + 1st isnt that far away

(and from our perspective, im not totally against it)

i mean i love coburn, and BOB is amazing.

BUT



it makes sense:
we have bryz,
we can replace coburn (suter or weber in the future?)

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08-29-2011, 12:25 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
How much would you guys be willing to give up for this kid?

I'd think hartnell/carle + a 1st +

...idk, the idea of :

JvR(22) Couturier(18) Paajarvi(20)

scares the **** out of me.
sure. why dont we send Matt Carle and a 2012 2nd round pick to Washington for John Carlson while we are at it.

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08-29-2011, 12:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
sure. why dont we send Matt Carle and a 2012 2nd round pick to Washington for John Carlson while we are at it.
ok wise guy, its a discussion.

but i edited my original post just for you

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08-29-2011, 12:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
sure. why dont we send Matt Carle and a 2012 2nd round pick to Washington for John Carlson while we are at it.
Psh. We don't add picks there, the Caps will have to. Matt Carle is worth John Carlson and Steve Downie. I thought we established that long ago.

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08-29-2011, 12:58 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
i really think voracek + Coburn/BOB + 1st isnt that far away

(and from our perspective, im not totally against it)

i mean i love coburn, and BOB is amazing.

BUT



it makes sense:
we have bryz,
we can replace coburn (suter or weber in the future?)
Oh don't get me wrong, I would do it in a heartbeat. I really like MPS and hope he turns out to be a great player. I think on a team with as many weapons as Philly has he would be a stud. I just think his potential is too high at this point that Edmonton might not want to trade him at all at this point just because he has that potential. I would think they would wait until at least this season plays out to see how much he has improved since last year.

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08-29-2011, 01:23 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh don't get me wrong, I would do it in a heartbeat. I really like MPS and hope he turns out to be a great player. I think on a team with as many weapons as Philly has he would be a stud. I just think his potential is too high at this point that Edmonton might not want to trade him at all at this point just because he has that potential. I would think they would wait until at least this season plays out to see how much he has improved since last year.
i totally agree with you, but (just for discussions sake) lets think from Edmonton's perspective...

You've come in last a few years in a row now, and between RNH, Hall, and even Eberle, you have some superstars in the making.

Paajarvi is going to be a superb player, no doubt, but will he find a role on edmonton? or will he be overlooked? He will definitely take time, and edmonton needs to start getting wins eventually.

and at what point do you need to sell a long term piece for a short term guy, so you can get wins and attract some free agents?

Voracek could be that mid-short term guy...idk

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08-29-2011, 02:19 PM
  #36
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Voracek isn't that far from where MPS will end up IMO. Adding in our 1st this year would be more than I'd pay. We could easily br trading away another Mike Richards or Simon Gagne with that pick and would any of you seriously trade away Voracek AND either Gagne or Richards just for MPS??? From a value standpoint and from our perspective ONLY, the most we should be willing to give up for MPS is Coburn and our 1st. That's it.


Now, from an Edm POV, they do have an abundance of young top end offensive talent. They can AFFORD to trade some of that away to bring in some defensive help. However, even though Coburn is a quality 2nd pairing dman who CAN play top pairing, he's not really good enough for them to be willing to trade MPS and hope they can get another quality forward with our 1st. If they were going to deal MPS they should be targeting someone like OEL or Rundblad or Cowen. They are about equivalent both talent and outlook wise.

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08-29-2011, 02:54 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
i totally agree with you, but (just for discussions sake) lets think from Edmonton's perspective...

You've come in last a few years in a row now, and between RNH, Hall, and even Eberle, you have some superstars in the making.

Paajarvi is going to be a superb player, no doubt, but will he find a role on edmonton? or will he be overlooked? He will definitely take time, and edmonton needs to start getting wins eventually.

and at what point do you need to sell a long term piece for a short term guy, so you can get wins and attract some free agents?

Voracek could be that mid-short term guy...idk
Fair enough. I guess I was really overvaluing him. I still think he should be a 70-80 point type player, wherever he may wind up. I'm guessing he finishes out his ELC in EDM and they trade his rights if things aren't working out. But if the guys out there all develop to their potential their top two lines could be pretty damned epic:

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Omark (or whomever they get in the draft this next year)-Gagner-MPS

Those two lines could be tops in the league if they all develop well. I feel like something is brewing up there the Great White North...

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08-31-2011, 03:50 AM
  #38
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now that i think about it... Coburn + voracek would be REALLY helpful to the oilers. (in terms of needs)

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08-31-2011, 04:07 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by CountDownToImpact View Post
His speed and grit never jumped out at me.
Then you probably need glasses. One of the best skaters in the WORLD didn't jump out at you?

Voracek and Paajarvi are actually very similar- they possess similar frames, debuted as 19-year-olds, and scored a similar number of points as rookies (34 for Paajarvi vs. 38 for Voracek). While I myself think Voracek plateaus quicker, I think Magnus is going to be in for a similar kind of lengthy development period.

As such, if I were a Flyers fan, I'd try and find a way of making such a deal happen without moving Voracek; you'd have two elite lines then- JVR-Giroux-Briere and Paajarvi-Schenn-Voracek. Of course, to do that, you'd need to part with one of the previously aforementioned assets you'd hate to give up- ie Couturier or your 2012 1st. Wayne Simmonds would also be a very nice addition; the Oilers possess plenty of skill, but what they don't have an abundance of is grit.

Couturier + Coburn? The Oilers get that big center we've been desperate for, plus a jumbo-sized top-four defender. Or perhaps Paajarvi + Anton Lander for Couturier and Bob?

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08-31-2011, 08:09 AM
  #40
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^ no chance that the flyers pull the trigger on those deals. Couturier could be the steal of the draft. We can't give up on that without seeing him play. He actually looks like a perfect fit for the flyers. A defensive centre who can score points.

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08-31-2011, 09:46 AM
  #41
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^ no chance that the flyers pull the trigger on those deals. Couturier could be the steal of the draft. We can't give up on that without seeing him play. He actually looks like a perfect fit for the flyers. A defensive centre who can score points.
I'd call Couturier a two-way player, not just a defensive one. He led the Q in scoring at 16, he's got LOADS of offensive talent and instincts. When he grows into his frame, I am confident he's going to have a great career.

The reason MPS is not getting traded is simple. His potential is too much for the Oilers to give up, but the fact he's still too unproven (not that I think he won't prove it) for a team to give up a king's ransom for him, to make it worth the Oilers' while.

It's the same reason we didn't want to trade JVR two years ago.

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08-31-2011, 10:18 AM
  #42
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Just because . . .

Would love to see him in the orange and black JUST to see the nameplate on his jersey!!! What size font would the folks at JerseyExpress have to use to fit it in? Would it include the special characters (umlets, etc.)???

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08-31-2011, 12:05 PM
  #43
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As an Oiler fan I do see that there could be potential for a trade here - You're centre depth is/will be stellar, while our LW depth is stellar. Paajarvi will not likely ever be the first line LW with Hall there. We have Hamilton, Omark and Hartikainen as future LWs who aren't as good as Paajarvi, but who have top 6 potential. Ryan Smyth is, of course, now back in the fold at LW. Many of us really like Gagner at #2 centre but feel it would be good to get more size/strength there and to trade Gagner for a dman. IF we did trade PRV, it wouldn't be a quality for quantity move but a quality for quality one.

I'd go with the lineup Mr Bugg suggested for you guys and ours might look like this (unlike Bugg, I wouldn't take your 2012 1st for PRV as it could be 30th overall :

Hall RNH Eberle
Hamilton Couturier/Schenn Hemsky/Omark

PRV for Schenn or Couturier makes the most sense from an Oiler point of view. All the players have some question marks about their offense in the future but they all have high potential - IMO (biased though it may be), Paajarvi has the highest potential of the group, but he also might have the lowest basement of the group too. He has elite, elite speed and is defensively aware to boot.


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08-31-2011, 12:06 PM
  #44
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Would love to see him in the orange and black JUST to see the nameplate on his jersey!!! What size font would the folks at JerseyExpress have to use to fit it in? Would it include the special characters (umlets, etc.)???
He just goes by "Paajarvi" now.

Nugent-Hopkins on the other hand...

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08-31-2011, 12:37 PM
  #45
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As an Oiler fan I wouldn't do most of the trades suggested here simply because I loved watching him play and am excited to see PRV make further advancements this year. That and we drafted his old center Lander from Sweden, hes coming over and has a decent shot at cracking the lineup this year. PRV also developed great chemistry with his fellow countryman Omark towards the end of the year... I can't do it, I must see the PRV/Lander/Omark magic!

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08-31-2011, 12:40 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
ok wise guy, its a discussion.

but i edited my original post just for you
In all honesty I dont think that deal would ever happen. the Flyers would have to offer up a high end prospect straight up for him.
I also dont think Carle is traded right now with the status of Pronger and Mez to start the season unknown.

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08-31-2011, 02:16 PM
  #47
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Couturier + Coburn better be bringing in Hall+ or Eberle+. Seriously, I understand hes ranked highly in your organization but Coburn although underrated by most our fans is probably one of the if not the best younger defensemen we have. Hes got size he moves the puck fairly well and when hes physical hes dominant. That plus the 8th overall pick for an unproven LW? Come on get real yea Im sure it does make sense from an Oilers PoV the Flyers get bent over.

Then theres the people throwing Schenns name out there too. Let's be reality, Schenn's the best prospect period in the whole NHL was drafted 5 spots over Paajarvi in the same draft and you want Bob or Coburn? Really?


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08-31-2011, 03:25 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Couturier + Coburn better be bringing in Hall+ or Eberle+.
Uh, yeah. Considering that every other Flyers fan has been extremely level-headed on this, I suppose I shouldn't be all that surprised by the one that isn't, but really? Really?

Quote:
That plus the 8th overall pick for an unproven LW? Come on get real yea
Wait, so a just-drafted prospect who has yet to be at an NHL camp is a more proven player than one who just finished a (solid) rookie season?

Quote:
Then theres the people throwing Schenns name out there too.
I haven't seen anyone- Oilers fan or Flyers fan- realistically suggest Schenn. Both sides have in fact acknowledged he's not on the table, thus the other creative and fair work-arounds. Are you actually reading the thread, or just trying to troll?

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08-31-2011, 03:27 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Couturier + Coburn better be bringing in Hall+ or Eberle+. Seriously, I understand hes ranked highly in your organization but Coburn although underrated by most our fans is probably one of the if not the best younger defensemen we have. Hes got size he moves the puck fairly well and when hes physical hes dominant. That plus the 8th overall pick for an unproven LW? Come on get real yea Im sure it does make sense from an Oilers PoV the Flyers get bent over.

Then theres the people throwing Schenns name out there too. Let's be reality, Schenn's the best prospect period in the whole NHL was drafted 5 spots over Paajarvi in the same draft and you want Bob or Coburn? Really?


MPS = Couturier = Schenn in trade value right now. An even swap of one of those tow for MPS is more than fair. This deal would only happen IF the Flyers feel they need a #2 LW behind JVR AND we feel that we have more than enough center depth to be able to trade one of Schenn/Couturier. Also, it would require Edm desire to trade a #2 LW for a #2 center in Schenn/Couturier. It's not out of the realm of possibility but not one that I see either team making right now. If say at this years draft the Flyers trade a guy they feel can be their next Mike Richards then we could certainly part with one of Couturier or Schenn.

Coburn + 1st is all that we SHOULD be giving up to get MPS but I doubt that would be enough for Edm to move him. MPS really isn't NEEDED from our persepctive so there is no real NEED for us to over pay for him. While there may be a potential for a trade here, I really don't foresee one happening any time soon.

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08-31-2011, 03:41 PM
  #50
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The reason MPS is not getting traded is simple. His potential is too much for the Oilers to give up, but the fact he's still too unproven (not that I think he won't prove it) for a team to give up a king's ransom for him, to make it worth the Oilers' while.

It's the same reason we didn't want to trade JVR two years ago.
Very good point. They're almost identical in a lot of ways- both are 6'3 and 200 some pounds, both are excellent skaters for their frames, both have terrific offensive instincts.

They also had near-identical rookie seasons (although Paajarvi was a year younger):

Paajarvi- 80 GP, 15-19-34
JVR- 78 GP, 15-20-35

With that in mind, why wouldn't you trade an even more unproven asset like Couturier for a player like Paajarvi? You'd have two of the same player, a player your GM loved enough to sign to a huge contract.

Finally, to look at it from an Oilers point of view, regardless of the quality of this year's 8th overall pick, it hasn't exactly been a great spot to draft recently. Burmistrov, Glennie, Boedker, Hamill Mueller, Setoguchi, Alex Picard, and your own Braydon Coburn are the most recent players selected at that position. Would you, as Flyers fans, trade JVR for a 6'5 second-pairing defender and any one of those players? Heck, any two of those players? Couturier is a better player at the same age than any of them, to be sure, but you can surely understand the major risk involved. It has the potential to be a move that screws the Oilers for a long time.


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