HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Pääjärvi-Svensson

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-31-2011, 04:42 PM
  #51
hfboardsuser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Coburn + 1st is all that we SHOULD be giving up to get MPS
So Ladislav Smid + Edmonton's 2012 1st should be enough for JVR?

hfboardsuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 05:05 PM
  #52
PALE PWNR
Registered User
 
PALE PWNR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,617
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Uh, yeah. Considering that every other Flyers fan has been extremely level-headed on this, I suppose I shouldn't be all that surprised by the one that isn't, but really? Really?



Wait, so a just-drafted prospect who has yet to be at an NHL camp is a more proven player than one who just finished a (solid) rookie season?



I haven't seen anyone- Oilers fan or Flyers fan- realistically suggest Schenn. Both sides have in fact acknowledged he's not on the table, thus the other creative and fair work-arounds. Are you actually reading the thread, or just trying to troll?
I didn't claim that he is a more proven player but asking for him and Coburn is ridiculous. Its not about are Couturier or Schenn or Paajarvi equal its about whats going with them. Coburn is a proven asset and one of the best defensemen on the team and will be the best defensemen on the team in as short as two years when Timonen is retired and Pronger is on the decline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nafrelio View Post
I'd go with the lineup Mr Bugg suggested for you guys and ours might look like this (unlike Bugg, I wouldn't take your 2012 1st for PRV as it could be 30th overall :

Hall RNH Eberle
Hamilton Couturier/Schenn Hemsky/Omark

PRV for Schenn or Couturier makes the most sense from an Oiler point of view. All the players have some question marks about their offense in the future but they all have high potential - IMO (biased though it may be), Paajarvi has the highest potential of the group, but he also might have the lowest basement of the group too. He has elite, elite speed and is defensively aware to boot.
And I guess you missed this post when stating that everyone decided Schenn was off the table? In fact apparently hes referencing one of your former posts! I guess I'm not that crazy.

PALE PWNR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 05:11 PM
  #53
PALE PWNR
Registered User
 
PALE PWNR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,617
vCash: 50
Point is although Paajarvi may have greater value right now, Schenn and Couturier have a higher projection on where they should be. And in a few years maybe Paajarvi is the better player of the 3 maybe it blows up in our faces. But right now the difference in Paajarvi and Schenn or Paajarvi and Couturier is not Coburn or Bob. Or any other Roster player. Maybe a pick or a project prospect.

PALE PWNR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 05:12 PM
  #54
PALE PWNR
Registered User
 
PALE PWNR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,617
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
So Ladislav Smid + Edmonton's 2012 1st should be enough for JVR?
JvR does not = Paajarvi sorry to tell you.

PALE PWNR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 05:17 PM
  #55
hfboardsuser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
JvR does not = Paajarvi sorry to tell you.
Can you prove it?

hfboardsuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 05:35 PM
  #56
Flyerfan808
Registered User
 
Flyerfan808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honolulu, HI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,002
vCash: 500
I'd love to have MPS.... but:

1) We don't really have room for him in our top 6.
2) Edmonton will want too much in return for him.

Flyerfan808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 05:42 PM
  #57
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,976
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
JvR does not = Paajarvi sorry to tell you.
I gotta disagree here. At this point they are certainly sitting on the same footing as far as ceiling goes. Obviously JvR is more proven, MPS being only 20 and entering his second year, but just because JvR has been here longer and "proven" himself, doesn't mean MPS isn't as good. I'd prefer JvR over MPS, but MPS is likely going to be as good as JvR, if not better. I mean, nothing is certain, but if he develops into his full potential I don't think anyone would complain if the Flyers had MPS instead of JvR.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 06:04 PM
  #58
hfboardsuser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I gotta disagree here. At this point they are certainly sitting on the same footing as far as ceiling goes. Obviously JvR is more proven, MPS being only 20 and entering his second year, but just because JvR has been here longer and "proven" himself, doesn't mean MPS isn't as good. I'd prefer JvR over MPS, but MPS is likely going to be as good as JvR, if not better. I mean, nothing is certain, but if he develops into his full potential I don't think anyone would complain if the Flyers had MPS instead of JvR.
Thank you. I myself am not saying is Paajarvi is the superior player- it's just too early in either player's career for that. They're about equal- JVR with a slight edge due to the extra season- and anyone saying otherwise is trying to stir things up.

That Paajarvi debuted a year earlier may be important, maybe not, but there's no reason minus injury to assume he will net fewer points in 2011-12... with plenty of reasons to believe he'll reach 20 goals and 40 points ala JVR. Really, that's just five extra goals and six extra total points. Can PALE PWNER really tell me that that's an impossible task?

hfboardsuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-31-2011, 10:48 PM
  #59
tuckrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
JvR does not = Paajarvi sorry to tell you.
yeah, this needs to be said.

We traded Richards + Carter for JvR + Roo. that says a LOT.

Paajarvi is more along the lines of couturier, but NOT JvR (in ceiling or current level of play)

Not a sleight against MPS at ALL. I love him as a player...but come on

tuckrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 02:00 AM
  #60
hfboardsuser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Paajarvi is more along the lines of couturier, but NOT JvR (in ceiling or current level of play)
How? I don't understand this continued line of thinking. They're nearly identical physically, had nearly identical rookie seasons (JVR had one more assist) with the sole difference being Paajarvi did it at 19 versus 20. JVR is also two full years older than MSP... yet, by some absurd logic that has yet to be explained to me, they're not even close in terms talent/ability/upside.

Ignoring who they are and who they play for, if you were to compare 6'3 200 lbs Johnny Viking who had 15-20-35 as a 20-year-old rookie, and 6'3 200 lbs Markus Pahlsson who had 15-19-34 as a 19-year-old rookie, would you seriously be able to find something about them that made you think one was heads and shoulders above the other, and the other was on par with an unproven prospect who had 0 GP of NHL experience?

[Mod edit]


Last edited by Opus: 09-01-2011 at 02:28 PM. Reason: remove link
hfboardsuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 02:52 AM
  #61
PALE PWNR
Registered User
 
PALE PWNR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,617
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
How? I don't understand this continued line of thinking. They're nearly identical physically, had nearly identical rookie seasons (JVR had one more assist) with the sole difference being Paajarvi did it at 19 versus 20. JVR is also two full years older than MSP... yet, by some absurd logic that has yet to be explained to me, they're not even close in terms talent/ability/upside.

Ignoring who they are and who they play for, if you were to compare 6'3 200 lbs Johnny Viking who had 15-20-35 as a 20-year-old rookie, and 6'3 200 lbs Markus Pahlsson who had 15-19-34 as a 19-year-old rookie, would you seriously be able to find something about them that made you think one was heads and shoulders above the other, and the other was on par with an unproven prospect who had 0 GP of NHL experience?

I swear, this is what this exercise feels like to me:
I guess we shall see what happens this season then you can see why you're wrong

Either way Im not discussing this further its pointless to talk about as there is a very low probability that it happens at all. When this season is said and done you will see why JvR does not equal Paajarvi

PALE PWNR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 03:05 AM
  #62
tuckrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I guess we shall see what happens this season then you can see why you're wrong

Either way Im not discussing this further its pointless to talk about as there is a very low probability that it happens at all. When this season is said and done you will see why JvR does not equal Paajarvi
im gonna archive this!

tuckrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 08:28 AM
  #63
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,976
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I guess we shall see what happens this season then you can see why you're wrong

Either way Im not discussing this further its pointless to talk about as there is a very low probability that it happens at all. When this season is said and done you will see why JvR does not equal Paajarvi
To be fair, even if JvR scores fifty goals this season, it doesn't really mean that he is better and will be better than MPS. JvR is going into his third season and is two years older than MPS. We really won't be able to tell their value and ability and such for a couple more years because when MPS is JvR's age or at least in a comparable season years-wise, he may score the same points/goals.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 08:46 AM
  #64
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
To be fair, even if JvR scores fifty goals this season, it doesn't really mean that he is better and will be better than MPS. JvR is going into his third season and is two years older than MPS. We really won't be able to tell their value and ability and such for a couple more years because when MPS is JvR's age or at least in a comparable season years-wise, he may score the same points/goals.
Since we are saying that value wise, MPS is compared to a roster player (who is HIGHLY more proven than MPS currently is) and Schenn or Couturier, and on the same level of JVR due to age/points he committed last season, say if Schenn or Couturier (or both) make this team and hit 40 or so points. Does that than classify him as on level with JVR or MPS (since their on the same level)?


Last edited by sa cyred: 09-01-2011 at 09:10 AM.
sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 09:30 AM
  #65
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,976
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Since we are saying that value wise, MPS is compared to a roster player (who is HIGHLY more proven than MPS currently is) and Schenn or Couturier, and on the same level of JVR due to age/points he committed last season, say if Schenn or Couturier (or both) make this team and hit 40 or so points. Does that than classify him as on level with JVR or MPS (since their on the same level)?
I'm not sure I understand this comparison or if you understood mine. I am not saying I would trade JvR for MPS or that would be a fair trade. What I am saying is that you can't sit there and say no way MPS is going to be as good as JvR or even that at this point he isn't as good. JvR has almost double the games and points and is two years older. MPS is two years younger with half the playing time and half the points. I'd say at this point their value and ability is pretty even. If Schenn and Couturier come in and score 40 points then I'd say their value and ability are about the same as when JvR was that age. Schenn and Couturier have just as high a ceiling at this point, but no NHL experience. If they get that NHL experience and produce the way JvR does, then why wouldn't they be as valuable? How do you measure value if not by ceiling and output? If Schenn had the ceiling of Nodl and scored 40 points, then that wouldn't make him equal to JvR. But if Schenn's ceiling is as high as JvR's and he scores at the same pace as JvR at his age, how can he not be as valuable or as talented?

What is it about MPS that makes him not as good as JvR and not as valuable? It can't be his point totals or his ceiling, because they seem to be about the same.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 10:35 AM
  #66
Komarov47
Registered User
 
Komarov47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Helsinki
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,766
vCash: 500
i never understood why guys dreamed about some speculation deals..... It's useless, MPS is one of the top Oilers's stars, they will never give up on him, as well as Eberle, Hall, RNH...

Komarov47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 02:16 PM
  #67
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not sure I understand this comparison or if you understood mine. I am not saying I would trade JvR for MPS or that would be a fair trade. What I am saying is that you can't sit there and say no way MPS is going to be as good as JvR or even that at this point he isn't as good. JvR has almost double the games and points and is two years older. MPS is two years younger with half the playing time and half the points. I'd say at this point their value and ability is pretty even. If Schenn and Couturier come in and score 40 points then I'd say their value and ability are about the same as when JvR was that age. Schenn and Couturier have just as high a ceiling at this point, but no NHL experience. If they get that NHL experience and produce the way JvR does, then why wouldn't they be as valuable? How do you measure value if not by ceiling and output? If Schenn had the ceiling of Nodl and scored 40 points, then that wouldn't make him equal to JvR. But if Schenn's ceiling is as high as JvR's and he scores at the same pace as JvR at his age, how can he not be as valuable or as talented?

What is it about MPS that makes him not as good as JvR and not as valuable? It can't be his point totals or his ceiling, because they seem to be about the same.
Hmm... you say that I dont understand and then you reiterate the same thing I asked... I dont understand how you are establishing value among certain players. If I understand correctly, you are saying that both of their values are even. That is fine. Your reasoning, as we can see posted by you in this exact quote, is that, since MPS is younger, and has half as many points, his value is the same as JVR's. Now, I am not comparing what teams they play on and how that affects their play. Now say that Couturier hits 37 points as a 18 yr old, half the age that MPS was. Does that mean in turn that, since MPS = JVR value wise, Couturier=MPS=JVR value wise? Lately, it seems among HFboards, that potential is a huge factor in how people are valueing players, as in, potential > known talent. I like MPS, but this sounds more life Leaf fans rating their players than anything.

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 02:33 PM
  #68
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Potential clearly trumps proven

Darroll Powe - Claude Giroux


Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 03:03 PM
  #69
usahockey22flyers
Forza Roma
 
usahockey22flyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I guess we shall see what happens this season then you can see why you're wrong

Either way Im not discussing this further its pointless to talk about as there is a very low probability that it happens at all. When this season is said and done you will see why JvR does not equal Paajarvi
Or maybe you can see why you're wrong?

I'm sorry but I believe that the playoffs were only a glimpse of what JvR can do.

They both have size and speed, but James is much more physical.

usahockey22flyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 03:20 PM
  #70
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
Or maybe you can see why you're wrong?

I'm sorry but I believe that the playoffs were only a glimpse of what JvR can do.

They both have size and speed, but James is much more physical.
You know Pale is actually defending JVR right?

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 03:24 PM
  #71
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,976
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Hmm... you say that I dont understand and then you reiterate the same thing I asked... I dont understand how you are establishing value among certain players. If I understand correctly, you are saying that both of their values are even. That is fine. Your reasoning, as we can see posted by you in this exact quote, is that, since MPS is younger, and has half as many points, his value is the same as JVR's. Now, I am not comparing what teams they play on and how that affects their play. Now say that Couturier hits 37 points as a 18 yr old, half the age that MPS was. Does that mean in turn that, since MPS = JVR value wise, Couturier=MPS=JVR value wise? Lately, it seems among HFboards, that potential is a huge factor in how people are valueing players, as in, potential > known talent. I like MPS, but this sounds more life Leaf fans rating their players than anything.
My reasoning is that they are both high ceiling players who have performed similarly in the NHL. There is no way to quantify how high a player's ceiling is, but from what I have seen and read about both players, they are both very high ceiling players with star potential. Since MPS is younger, obviously he has not proven as much as JvR, but he has scored at an equivalent pace to JvR. Since they are both very young and JvR himself hasn't done anything that is out of reach of MPS's ability (even MPS only puts out the same number of points he did last year, their point totals will be only an 8 point difference after two season) I don't think you say that JvR is a more valuable player at this point. Maybe to this specific team he is more valuable than MPS is to the Oilers. But if we are talking about talent, output, and ceiling, it doesn't make sense to say they are not equal. Especially considering that MPS is playing on a basement dwelling team with little to no support. This year he should, at least in theory, have a better season because he is a year older and so are the young players around him. I'm not sure what line he will be playing, but if his linemates, which I believe would include at least one of Hall, Eberle, RNH, or Gagner, but he will benefit from their improvements as well.

It's not like we are talking about JvR vs. a guy like Stamkos where Stamkos is currently one of the best in the game and JvR has the potential to be one of the best. We are talking about a guy who has maxed out at 40 points over two years with a very high ceiling. MPS has had similar numbers with a similarly high ceiling, but is two years younger than JvR. In what way are they not equal? And yes, if Brayden Schenn or Couturier comes and scores 40 points this year, I'd say they are as valuable as JvR. Why wouldn't they be?

Again, JvR has not done anything more than what MPS has done so what makes him more valuable than a younger player with an equally high ceiling putting up the same numbers? You haven't said anything that refutes what I am saying except that I am wrong. So could you maybe explain your position as to why JvR has a higher value and ability than MPS?

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 04:38 PM
  #72
tuckrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,571
vCash: 500
Their stats ARENT that similar people. Look at them vs TOI... JvR killed MPS in Goals/TOI, Points/TOI, Assists/TOI

tuckrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 04:57 PM
  #73
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,976
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Their stats ARENT that similar people. Look at them vs TOI... JvR killed MPS in Goals/TOI, Points/TOI, Assists/TOI
That's where the other factors like age and linemates come in to play. I don't know the exact line MPS played on, but judging by his TOI he wasn't regularly playing with Hall, Eberle, or Gagner or getting regular PP time. Meanwhile, JvR was playing on a line with Giroux or Richards or Carter pretty much on a nightly basis. Having better linemates obviously has its advantages in terms of point production. Look, I'm not bashing JvR at all. I have, in the past said I didn't think JvR would amount to much more than a 60 point player, but after seeing the way he played in the playoffs last season think he has much more potential than I originally though. All I am saying is that at this point in their careers, MPS and JvR are just about even in terms of output, ceiling, and talent. Now, obviously that may change. If JvR scores 50 goals this season and MPS regresses, then obviously its a different story. Or if MPS scores 50 and JvR regresses. But right now, at this point in time, saying JvR is better or more valuable doesn't make much sense, given that he hasn't done anything more than MPS has done, except having an extra season.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 06:53 PM
  #74
tuckrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's where the other factors like age and linemates come in to play. I don't know the exact line MPS played on, but judging by his TOI he wasn't regularly playing with Hall, Eberle, or Gagner or getting regular PP time. Meanwhile, JvR was playing on a line with Giroux or Richards or Carter pretty much on a nightly basis. Having better linemates obviously has its advantages in terms of point production. Look, I'm not bashing JvR at all. I have, in the past said I didn't think JvR would amount to much more than a 60 point player, but after seeing the way he played in the playoffs last season think he has much more potential than I originally though. All I am saying is that at this point in their careers, MPS and JvR are just about even in terms of output, ceiling, and talent. Now, obviously that may change. If JvR scores 50 goals this season and MPS regresses, then obviously its a different story. Or if MPS scores 50 and JvR regresses. But right now, at this point in time, saying JvR is better or more valuable doesn't make much sense, given that he hasn't done anything more than MPS has done, except having an extra season.
if you've watched JVR play for a while, and you watch MPS play, you will know why their potential/ceiling/value is not equal.

MPS will be a great player, and he could be an amazing player regardless of how he stacks up against JvR.


(for example, if you post on the trade forums "JvR for MPS" and ignore edmonton/philly fans watch what happens...or DO include philly/edmonton fans, it wont make a difference.)

tuckrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2011, 07:37 PM
  #75
hfboardsuser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Their stats ARENT that similar people. Look at them vs TOI... JvR killed MPS in Goals/TOI, Points/TOI, Assists/TOI
JVR scored 0.69 goals per 60 minutes of play and 1.72 P/60 as a rookie. MPS had 0.62 goals per 60 minutes of play and 1.36 P/60 in 2010-11. That's not a major difference at all- realistically, you're looking at 3-4 points over a full season.

In terms of overall ice-time, the most substantial difference is in ES TOI; Paajarvi played exactly 2 minutes more a game at even strength. But they weren't easy minutes, not at all. According to BehindTheNet, Paajarvi's line was most frequently matched up against the Sedins and Burrows. JVR, as a rook, saw Artem Anisimov's line the most. Which is the harder job, do you think?

hfboardsuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:51 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.