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Old
09-01-2011, 08:51 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
I'm curious as to how many people listened to the interview before commenting. I didn't walk away from it thinking poorly of him. I bet there was a lot of truth in what he said. He lost me when he started complaining about the working out but it's not hard to believe that the organization didn't handle him properly. After the glory days how many 1st round picks panned out for us during Sather's time here? Obviously Smyth did. Arnott turned into a good player but it didn't work out in Edmonton.
This is of course fair comment to an org that had lost the script by the 90's and that was flailing away.

The management and direction had ceased being any good and Sather and Fraser in the 90's were a parody of what they had been a decade earlier. With most of the org having passed the jump the shark moment.

A different way to look at it is how much the Steve Kelly and Jason Bonsignore drafts signalled how much this club had lost its touch.

Later dismissing talent like Whitney and Satan being further instances. These were players under our noses that even the fans noticed were good. The club dropped them indicating they had insufficient talent.

The Arnott situation is interesting as well occurring so closely before the Bonsignore draft. We all know Arnott was a player. Everybody knew it. Never in doubt. One of the best rookie years we've seen here (amazing given the talent we've had here) and Arnott just being a dominating leader here in his first year. But the club rode that pony relentlessly that year for lack of much else and to limit the club being an on ice embarassment.
How many nights we threw Arnott over the boards endlessly to get some meaningless wins in a meaningless year.
We all know the story with what happened. Arnott eventually broke and Sather didn't effectively protect his young star from the media glare and criticism. Sather, who was good at precisely that a decade earlier apparently haven lost that touch.

Finally, the Club repeated the same thing with Smyth although luckily with a personality that was unbreakable and would absorb any icetime and attention given him. Smyth being a rare and special breed requiring no management.

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09-01-2011, 09:03 AM
  #102
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Check out the 1994 draft. With two high picks in hand, the Oilers could "afford" to swing for the fenses with Bonsignore - they just struck out. But check out this draft - most teams struck out too. Most teams didn't "develop" these players right.

(Imagine if we didn't get Smyth! Smyth and Ohlund would've been the best outcome, but lots of teams passed on Ohlund too. Has there been a weaker draft? I don't know - maybe 2011...)

Draft#:1
Ed Jovanovski
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Windsor Spitfires (OHL)

Draft#:2
Oleg Tverdovsky
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Krylja Sovetov (Russia)

Draft#:3
Radek Bonk
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Las Vegas Thunder (IHL)

Draft#:4
Jason Bonsignore
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Niagara-Falls Thunder (OHL)

Draft#:5
Jeff O'Neill
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Guelph Storm (OHL)

Draft#:6
Ryan Smyth
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Moose Jaw Warriors (WHL)

Draft#:7
Jamie Storr
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Owen Sound Platers (OHL)

Draft#:8
Jason Wiemer
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From: Portland Winter Hawks (WHL)

Draft#:9
Brett Lindros
Ht/Wt:
Position: RW
Drafted From:Kingston Frontenacs (OHL)

Draft#:10
Nolan Baumgartner
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Kamloops Blazers (WHL)

Draft#:11
Jeff Friesen
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Regina Pats (WHL)

Draft#:12
Wade Belak
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Saskatoon Blades (WHL)

Draft#:13
Mattias Ohlund
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From: Pitea (Sweden)

Draft#:14
Ethan Moreau
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Niagara-Falls Thunder (OHL)

Draft#:15
Alexander Kharlamov
Ht/Wt:
Position: RW
Drafted From:CSKA Moscow (Russia)

Draft#:16
Eric Fichaud
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Chicoutimi Sagueneens (QMJHL)

Draft#:17
Wayne Primeau
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Owen Sound Platers (OHL)

Draft#:18
Brad Brown
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:North Bay Centennials (OHL)

Draft#:19
Chris Dingman
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Brandon Wheat Kings (WHL)

Draft#:20
Jason Botterill
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:U. of Michigan (NCAA)

Draft#:21
Evgeni Ryabchikov
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Molot Perm (Russia)

Draft#:22
Jeff Kealty
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Catholic Memorial H.S. (Mass.)

Draft#:23
Yan Golubovsky
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:CSKA Moscow (Russia)

Draft#:24
Chris Wells
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL)

Draft#:25
Vadim Sharifijanov
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Ufa Salavat (Russia)

Draft#:26
Dan Cloutier
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Sault-Ste.-Marie Greyhounds

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09-01-2011, 09:09 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nafrelio View Post
Check out the 1994 draft. With two high picks in hand, the Oilers could "afford" to swing for the fenses with Bonsignore - they just struck out. But check out this draft - most teams struck out too. Most teams didn't "develop" these players right.

(Imagine if we didn't get Smyth! Smyth and Ohlund would've been the best outcome, but lots of teams passed on Ohlund too. Has there been a weaker draft? I don't know - maybe 2011...)

Draft#:1
Ed Jovanovski
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Windsor Spitfires (OHL)

Draft#:2
Oleg Tverdovsky
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Krylja Sovetov (Russia)

Draft#:3
Radek Bonk
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Las Vegas Thunder (IHL)

Draft#:4
Jason Bonsignore
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Niagara-Falls Thunder (OHL)

Draft#:5
Jeff O'Neill
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Guelph Storm (OHL)

Draft#:6
Ryan Smyth
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Moose Jaw Warriors (WHL)

Draft#:7
Jamie Storr
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Owen Sound Platers (OHL)

Draft#:8
Jason Wiemer
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From: Portland Winter Hawks (WHL)

Draft#:9
Brett Lindros
Ht/Wt:
Position: RW
Drafted From:Kingston Frontenacs (OHL)

Draft#:10
Nolan Baumgartner
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Kamloops Blazers (WHL)

Draft#:11
Jeff Friesen
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Regina Pats (WHL)

Draft#:12
Wade Belak
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Saskatoon Blades (WHL)

Draft#:13
Mattias Ohlund
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From: Pitea (Sweden)

Draft#:14
Ethan Moreau
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Niagara-Falls Thunder (OHL)

Draft#:15
Alexander Kharlamov
Ht/Wt:
Position: RW
Drafted From:CSKA Moscow (Russia)

Draft#:16
Eric Fichaud
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Chicoutimi Sagueneens (QMJHL)

Draft#:17
Wayne Primeau
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Owen Sound Platers (OHL)

Draft#:18
Brad Brown
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:North Bay Centennials (OHL)

Draft#:19
Chris Dingman
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Brandon Wheat Kings (WHL)

Draft#:20
Jason Botterill
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:U. of Michigan (NCAA)

Draft#:21
Evgeni Ryabchikov
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Molot Perm (Russia)

Draft#:22
Jeff Kealty
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:Catholic Memorial H.S. (Mass.)

Draft#:23
Yan Golubovsky
Ht/Wt:
Position: D
Drafted From:CSKA Moscow (Russia)

Draft#:24
Chris Wells
Ht/Wt:
Position: C
Drafted From:Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL)

Draft#:25
Vadim Sharifijanov
Ht/Wt:
Position: LW
Drafted From:Ufa Salavat (Russia)

Draft#:26
Dan Cloutier
Ht/Wt:
Position: G
Drafted From:Sault-Ste.-Marie Greyhounds
1994 wasn't that bad. If you wanna talk about weak drafts: see 1992 draft, 1996 draft, 1999 draft,

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Old
09-01-2011, 09:12 AM
  #104
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no, '94 was bad! maybe not the worst, but bad.

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09-01-2011, 09:14 AM
  #105
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okay i retract that comment, 1994 was pretty darn bad. But like i said,look at 92, 96 and 99.

Especially 1999....with the exception of the Sedin sisters, the entire first round of the 1999 draft was a bust!

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09-01-2011, 09:18 AM
  #106
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Some real steals outside of the first round. The Devils did okay in the 2nd and 3rd round with Elias and Souray. They struck out hard in the first round with Sharifijanov.

Just saying that, especially back then, drafting was not as refined as it is now and lots of teams went down swinging, and lots of teams didn't develop their players well, whatever that means. To me player development by a team is far lower in importance than player development by the player - case in point with Bonsignore.

Does the player have the motivation, the mental makeup, and the character to prepare to be a pro? That's much more important than what line or players or caliber of team he gets to play on.


Last edited by nafrelio: 09-01-2011 at 09:29 AM.
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09-01-2011, 09:21 AM
  #107
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As far as the 94 draft sometimes some perspective is needed as well. By that time Hockey was getting into the full on legion of doom, big is better and hanging on mode. Hockey started to be purely about physical ability to dominate. A half decade later and some crackdowns and that was changing. I sometimes wonder how many times players get drafted due to teams thinking the pro game is headed one way, then the NHL changing direction and subsequently rendering some drafts more obsolete.

You can't look at drafts just as bad drafts. Because the goalposts keep shifting.

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09-01-2011, 09:23 AM
  #108
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Sather's mistake in 1994 wasn't the way he treated Bonsignore. It was the fact he actually drafted him. If this was today, and with the phsych tests and magnitude of interviews, this guy doesn't even get considered for the first round. He' probably a 3rd round longshot throw it out, take a chance kind of pick. From the interview, it sounds like he never had the personality to be a pro hockey player. Looks like the reports from junior and the failures in other pro stops proved t. But Jason says no one gave him a chance. Boo hoo.

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09-01-2011, 09:28 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sam89Gags View Post
okay i retract that comment, 1994 was pretty darn bad. But like i said,look at 92, 96 and 99.

Especially 1999....with the exception of the Sedin sisters, the entire first round of the 1999 draft was a bust!
I wouldn't call Havlat or Connely busts in the first round. They are elite-ish NHL talent, but both have had injury issues.

1992- Yashin, Gonchar, Stillman, Kasparitis, J. Smith are the best of a pretty poor group, yup.

1996 - C. Phillips, Derek Morris, Sturm, Briere, JP Dumont, Salei, Reasoner the best of another weak group.

Some weaker drafts there in the 90's, wow. That's at least partly to blame for our perpetual mediocrity.

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09-01-2011, 09:36 AM
  #110
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OK I'm having a hard time not seeing him as a childish bitter old man. He's trying to create the image that Edmonton doesn't take good care of their prospects. Lowe and Mac-T allowed Chorney, Gagner, Nilson and Cogliano to get rushed into the NHL. Tambolini is the GM now, not Sather or Lowe. Renny is the coach now, not Mac-T or Green.
Did you listen to the interview? He says in it that he's sure that the organization is great now and that they bring guys along differently now. It's extremely obvious he's exclusively talking about the organization in his day only, and not talking about Lowe or Tambellini at all.

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09-01-2011, 10:21 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Things have changed substantially in the scouting world since Bonsignore was drafted, both with the Oilers and in general.

The Oilers should never have taken him that high given the red flags so simply by selecting him they actually need to accept a significant part of the blame as far as the lost opportunity for the franchise is concerned.

But you also wonder how much background work they actually did on the kid. Today they would likley have a complete profile on the kid. They would have interviewed him several times, talked to people around him, would have tested his physical fitness and would have a very good sense of his willingness to dedicate himself to becoming and NHL'er.

There is also no question that the Oilers as an organization were probably close to their all-time low point when JB joined them. Their scouting was a mess, and you csan be sure that there was no money for any frills.
To be fair teams do a lot more work on character and background checks today but the amount of red flags about Bonsignore should have had him drop further.

It doesn't seem like he dropped much at 4 overall, but he was being compared to Mario Lemieux in his draft year.

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09-01-2011, 10:26 AM
  #112
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There is an interesting post on Oilers Nation buy Lowetide today that looks back at Messier's first year couple years here that kinda ties in with Bonsignore's complaints quite nicely imo.

It keys on some of the problems the Oilers had with Messier when he first got to the Oilers and some of the things they did to address them.

Obviously the 'they' is Sather who 'handled' both players in question.

Today one player is in the hall of fame and mentioned in the same breath as some of the greatest players/teams the game has ever saw while the other one laments his missed opportunities and a raw deal that he was on the recieving end of.

Obviously you have to expect mistakes to be made by the team but it always starts with and is primarily about the player in question.

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09-01-2011, 10:34 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
There is an interesting post on Oilers Nation buy Lowetide today that looks back at Messier's first year couple years here that kinda ties in with Bonsignore's complaints quite nicely imo.

It keys on some of the problems the Oilers had with Messier when he first got to the Oilers and some of the things they did to address them.

Obviously the 'they' is Sather who 'handled' both players in question.

Today one player is in the hall of fame and mentioned in the same breath as some of the greatest players/teams the game has ever saw while the other one laments his missed opportunities and a raw deal that he was on the recieving end of.

Obviously you have to expect mistakes to be made by the team but it always starts with and is primarily about the player in question.
I have no doubt that Sather told Bonsignore he was fat and told him to go work out at 5:30 a.m. by himself.

I also have no doubt that Bonsignore didn't show up in shape and didn't want to do the work necessary to excel at the NHL level.

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09-01-2011, 10:36 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
There is an interesting post on Oilers Nation buy Lowetide today that looks back at Messier's first year couple years here that kinda ties in with Bonsignore's complaints quite nicely imo.

It keys on some of the problems the Oilers had with Messier when he first got to the Oilers and some of the things they did to address them.

Obviously the 'they' is Sather who 'handled' both players in question.

Today one player is in the hall of fame and mentioned in the same breath as some of the greatest players/teams the game has ever saw while the other one laments his missed opportunities and a raw deal that he was on the recieving end of.

Obviously you have to expect mistakes to be made by the team but it always starts with and is primarily about the player in question.
Messier also missed a flight and was sent to the minors. Sather was known to give the sugar as a reward but he was not afraid to give the whip when he felt he needed to.

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09-01-2011, 10:40 AM
  #115
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Ok, i just listened to the interview and i have to say that Principe saying "We will have a 1st round NON-bust Grant Fuhr coming up" is one of the most unprofessional things that i ever heard especially after Bonsignore gave a sincere interview. For shame Gene.

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09-01-2011, 10:50 AM
  #116
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Well--He is still in denial over somethings

If He goes ten years later with all the of scouting that is done for players he would not go in the first round--he suffered from the same thing Schremp did--it just was not caught at the time

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09-01-2011, 10:50 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Messier also missed a flight and was sent to the minors. Sather was known to give the sugar as a reward but he was not afraid to give the whip when he felt he needed to.
That's kind of my point, we tend to remember the Boys on the Bus as a group that only experienced good times but that was not the case. In the early days they were a team - and were players - with question marks and problems just like every other team.

Now whether they became a product greater than their sum or were a collection of exceptionally gifted players - unlikely to be seen again - is an unkown but either way they definately did go through some growing pains.

I remember a story about Sather telling Messier that he had no heart after a particularily poor playoff game. It made Messier cry because Sather cut to the very core of how Messier identified with himself.

Would that be considered less of a critisism, an equal critisism or a greater critisism than telling an out of shape player he was fat? I guess that's up to the individual to decide but it goes back to the core issue.

Messier had the back bone and fortitude to push beyond the head games and challenges where as Bonsignore clearly didn't.

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09-01-2011, 10:53 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by oilersrule14 View Post
Did you listen to the interview? He says in it that he's sure that the organization is great now and that they bring guys along differently now. It's extremely obvious he's exclusively talking about the organization in his day only, and not talking about Lowe or Tambellini at all.
This!!

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09-01-2011, 10:54 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Ok, i just listened to the interview and i have to say that Principe saying "We will have a 1st round NON-bust Grant Fuhr coming up" is one of the most unprofessional things that i ever heard especially after Bonsignore gave a sincere interview. For shame Gene.
lets call a spade a spade here. the guy is as big a bust as there ever will be considering his talent. GP is hilarious.

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09-01-2011, 10:57 AM
  #120
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lets call a spade a spade here. the guy is as big a bust as there ever will be considering his talent. GP is hilarious.
That's all fine and good but as a member of the media, Gene should know better.

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09-01-2011, 10:59 AM
  #121
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That's kind of my point, we tend to remember the Boys on the Bus as a group that only experienced good times but that was not the case. In the early days they were a team - and were players - with question marks and problems just like every other team.

Now whether they became a product greater than their sum or were a collection of exceptionally gifted players - unlikely to be seen again - is an unkown but either way they definately did go through some growing pains.

I remember a story about Sather telling Messier that he had no heart after a particularily poor playoff game. It made Messier cry because Sather cut to the very core of how Messier identified with himself.

Would that be considered less of a critisism, an equal critisism or a greater critisism than telling an out of shape player he was fat? I guess that's up to the individual to decide but it goes back to the core issue.

Messier had the back bone and fortitude to push beyond the head games and challenges where as Bonsignore clearly didn't.
You are comparing the mental strength between an all star player to a teenager who had nothing to support him. Its not really a relevant, also, this wasn't just a one time thing. He felt continously hounded and mistreated for a long time. Its very tough for a young guy in a new environment. For sure, there was probably a reason that they were on his case but that doesn't really excuse things.

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09-01-2011, 11:09 AM
  #122
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You are comparing the mental strength between an all star player to a teenager who had nothing to support him.
I am comparing two players starting out at the same place with the same challenges and pointing that it's up to the player to perservere through it.

But sure I can buy in, Bonsignore - although being the poster boy for colossal bust - was really just misunderstood and mistreated even though those that were here before him endured similar and got through it just fine.

I have little sympathy for a guy that was gift wrapped an opportunity that damn near every kid in Canada would kill for but didn't want bad enough to do what was needed to succeed at it.

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09-01-2011, 11:12 AM
  #123
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That was because he wasn't giving a full effort.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/fea...ey-cleary.html

He made it clear that he was the reason why he failed before Detroit.
I know someone that is pretty close to Cleary.

You have no idea how he really felt.

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09-01-2011, 11:19 AM
  #124
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In 10 years, Rob Schremp will be saying the exact same things.

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09-01-2011, 11:20 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I am comparing two players starting out at the same place with the same challenges and pointing that it's up to the player to perservere through it.

But sure I can buy in, Bonsignore - although being the poster boy for colossal bust - was really just misunderstood and mistreated even though those that were here before him endured similar and got through it just fine.

I have little sympathy for a guy that was gift wrapped an opportunity that damn near every kid in Canada would kill for but didn't want bad enough to do what was needed to succeed at it.
It has probably very little to do with being misunderstood. It seems more like no one could care less to understand him. I understand your sentiment but mentally screwing a 19 year away from his home environment isn't that hard.

He was probably unprepared physically and mentally, and they punished him for it. The problem is how you work with young people. And seriously, comparing Messier during his peak with a teenager trying to make a team at 18-19 years old... its not really a good analogy.

From what i read and heard it seems Jason needed some special treatment, he probably lacked maturity. The organisation choose to **** him over and over and over to make sure he would understand what it takes. The thing is, that can break a kid or an adult even.

You would never do that today anywhere ... hopefully.

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