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Old
09-01-2011, 06:58 PM
  #76
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In this thread: An Edmonton fan believes his player is marginally better. Flyers fans believe their player is marginally better.

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Old
09-01-2011, 07:41 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
if you've watched JVR play for a while, and you watch MPS play, you will know why their potential/ceiling/value is not equal.

MPS will be a great player, and he could be an amazing player regardless of how he stacks up against JvR.


(for example, if you post on the trade forums "JvR for MPS" and ignore edmonton/philly fans watch what happens...or DO include philly/edmonton fans, it wont make a difference.)
Yes, because whatever the main board says goes. The bottom line is, at this early point in their career, with their ceilings, talents, and outputs roughly the same, neither is really more valuable or better. I'm not real sure what your argument is other than "just watch" or "you're wrong" or "they're stats aren't THAT similar."

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09-01-2011, 08:19 PM
  #78
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Right now, I think most fans would rather have JVR over MPS. Going forward I think most people would rather have JVR also.

Obviously I'm a little biased.

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09-01-2011, 10:41 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Right now, I think most fans would rather have JVR over MPS. Going forward I think most people would rather have JVR also.

Obviously I'm a little biased.
I would take JvR over MPS too, but its not like I'd scoff at MPS. This isn't like I'm saying Nodl (or even MPS) is better than JvR. This is another young, high ceiling player who has proven pretty much just as much as JvR has at this point and all I am saying is that at this point in time, I'd say their value is equal.

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09-02-2011, 12:23 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I would take JvR over MPS too, but its not like I'd scoff at MPS. This isn't like I'm saying Nodl (or even MPS) is better than JvR. This is another young, high ceiling player who has proven pretty much just as much as JvR has at this point and all I am saying is that at this point in time, I'd say their value is equal.
I thought you were saying there ceiling was equal.
(which i thought was a better debate)

Their value IS DEFINITELY not equal.
(it is further from equal than their ceiling)

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09-02-2011, 06:35 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
I thought you were saying there ceiling was equal.
(which i thought was a better debate)

Their value IS DEFINITELY not equal.
(it is further from equal than their ceiling)
Again, every single person who has argued with me has not said WHY this is not equal. You may not agree with what I am saying, but at least I am using some sort information to back it up (see: above posts relating to age, output, talent, ceiling, etc).

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09-02-2011, 10:21 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Again, every single person who has argued with me has not said WHY this is not equal. You may not agree with what I am saying, but at least I am using some sort information to back it up (see: above posts relating to age, output, talent, ceiling, etc).

Watch them play and understand the roles they were in. Look at their production versus minutes played. Look at who they have had on their depth chart above them on their team. How JVR was brought alone is no different than how the Flyers have brought alone EVERY rookie/young player they've had for the past nearly 10 years. If JVR had been on a team that absolutely sucked and was basically told "just go play and see what you can do" then he'd have had a much much better rookie and 2nd season and you wouldn't even be discussing this as JVR would have been in contention for the Caulder in his rookie season, something MPS was NEVER considered for. The Flyers will NOT have anyone win the Caulder BECAUSE we do NOT let our rookies "free weild". They play limited minutes an in a very very sturctured role where they must first PROVE they will not be a defensive liability when on the ice. We did it with Carter, Richards, Giroux and JVR just as our top end rookies. If MPS had been on the Flyers then he'd have had to play a much more defensive role on Richards wing just like JVR had to do and MPS' numbers would have been lower.

Plain and simply, switch these 2 players on their teams and although we'd be happy to have MPS, EVERYONE would want JVR over MPS. JVR is a true first line winger and future allstar while MPS will be a fringe 1st line/2nd line winger and although a very good player, not allstar worthy.

If anyone can't understand this then I don't know what else to tell you. Don't just stat watch. Try actually WATCHING the players and think about their role on the team and how the team is using said player. Last year it was pretty evident even in the Buffalo series that we were too beat up to win the cup. We almost lost to a team we SHOULD have dominated. With as beat up as we were there was no chance of us beating the Bruins and once that writing was on the wall Lavy pretty much too the restricer plate off of JVR and let him amp up his game. THAT is what you saw last year in the Bruins series, what JVR is TRULY capable of doing. Go back and watch those games again if you can. Next to Thomas, JVR was the most dominant player in the series. Chara was matched up on him every chance they got and not even Chara could stop JVR. Just think about that for a second, Chara is one of the best shut down dmen in the league and JVR went right around him and drove the next pretty much at will. The number of players that can do that to Chara are few and far between and MPS is NOT one of those players. Now, whether or not the Flyers let JVR "amp it up" from the beginning of this season on or restrict him again in an effort to make the all-around team better (by using his very good 2-way play, something he was FORCED to learn in his first 2 years) remains to be seen. Either way, for anyone who actually watches them play would take JVR over MPS every day if the week. Because of how special of a player JVR is going to be is the EXACT reason that Ana could NOT get him in the Pronger trade. Reports were that JVR is the player they really wanted and we wouldn't part with JVR in any scenario. There is a very good reason that Holmgren would NOT trade JVR in the Pronger deal, he knew JVR was going to be a special player.


Last edited by phlocky: 09-02-2011 at 10:34 AM.
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Old
09-02-2011, 10:35 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Watch them play and understand the roles they were in. Look at their production versus minutes played. Look at who they have had on their depth chart above them on their team. How JVR was brought alone is no different than how the Flyers have brought alone EVERY rookie/young player they've had for the past nearly 10 years. If JVR had been on a team that absolutely sucked and was basically told "just go play and see what you can do" then he'd have had a much much better rookie and 2nd season and you wouldn't even be discussing this as JVR would have been in contention for the Caulder in his rookie season, something MPS was NEVER considered for. The Flyers will NOT have anyone win the Caulder BECAUSE we do NOT let our rookies "free weild". They play limited minutes an in a very very sturctured role where they must first PROVE they will not be a defensive liability when on the ice. We did it with Carter, Richards, Giroux and JVR just as our top end rookies. If MPS had been on the Flyers then he'd have had to play a much more defensive role on Richards wing just like JVR had to do and MPS' numbers would have been lower.

Plain and simply, switch these 2 players on their teams and although we'd be happy to have MPS, EVERYONE would want JVR over MPS. JVR is a true first line winger and future allstar while MPS will be a fringe 1st line/2nd line winger and although a very good player, not allstar worthy.
I agree with this post JVR >>MPS. I think that JVR has much more potential in him than MPS. Like I said I watched MPS last year and was unimpressed. I also watched JVR last year and especially in the Playoffs I was like wow this kid has the potential to be a star on this team and throughout the league. I really don't understand what all the fuss is about MPS. Forget it, we aren't getting him. End of story.

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Old
09-02-2011, 10:55 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Watch them play and understand the roles they were in. Look at their production versus minutes played. Look at who they have had on their depth chart above them on their team. How JVR was brought alone is no different than how the Flyers have brought alone EVERY rookie/young player they've had for the past nearly 10 years. If JVR had been on a team that absolutely sucked and was basically told "just go play and see what you can do" then he'd have had a much much better rookie and 2nd season and you wouldn't even be discussing this as JVR would have been in contention for the Caulder in his rookie season, something MPS was NEVER considered for. The Flyers will NOT have anyone win the Caulder BECAUSE we do NOT let our rookies "free weild". They play limited minutes an in a very very sturctured role where they must first PROVE they will not be a defensive liability when on the ice. We did it with Carter, Richards, Giroux and JVR just as our top end rookies. If MPS had been on the Flyers then he'd have had to play a much more defensive role on Richards wing just like JVR had to do and MPS' numbers would have been lower.

Plain and simply, switch these 2 players on their teams and although we'd be happy to have MPS, EVERYONE would want JVR over MPS. JVR is a true first line winger and future allstar while MPS will be a fringe 1st line/2nd line winger and although a very good player, not allstar worthy.

If anyone can't understand this then I don't know what else to tell you. Don't just stat watch. Try actually WATCHING the players and think about their role on the team and how the team is using said player. Last year it was pretty evident even in the Buffalo series that we were too beat up to win the cup. We almost lost to a team we SHOULD have dominated. With as beat up as we were there was no chance of us beating the Bruins and once that writing was on the wall Lavy pretty much too the restricer plate off of JVR and let him amp up his game. THAT is what you saw last year in the Bruins series, what JVR is TRULY capable of doing. Go back and watch those games again if you can. Next to Thomas, JVR was the most dominant player in the series. Chara was matched up on him every chance they got and not even Chara could stop JVR. Just think about that for a second, Chara is one of the best shut down dmen in the league and JVR went right around him and drove the next pretty much at will. The number of players that can do that to Chara are few and far between and MPS is NOT one of those players. Now, whether or not the Flyers let JVR "amp it up" from the beginning of this season on or restrict him again in an effort to make the all-around team better (by using his very good 2-way play, something he was FORCED to learn in his first 2 years) remains to be seen. Either way, for anyone who actually watches them play would take JVR over MPS every day if the week. Because of how special of a player JVR is going to be is the EXACT reason that Ana could NOT get him in the Pronger trade. Reports were that JVR is the player they really wanted and we wouldn't part with JVR in any scenario. There is a very good reason that Holmgren would NOT trade JVR in the Pronger deal, he knew JVR was going to be a special player.
I'm not really sure I agree with you here. First of all, I never once said in this thread that I wouldn't rather have JvR or that in the end MPS is going to be a hall of famer and JvR a nobody. What I am saying, and have been saying this entire time, is that right now, their value is comparable. MPS is younger, playing on a basement dwelling team with less support than JvR, but still putting up similar numbers to JvR when he was a year older. They are both players with high ceilings. I know JvR showed he has some serious ability in that Boston series, and I am not discounting anything he has done or is capable of, but one series doesn't mean he is a better player. Up until pretty much January of last season, I wasn't all that impressed. Now, obviously that has changed since his second half and playoffs were much better.

What I really don't get is how you are so sure of this without backing it up with anything other than saying "just watch them play" and "look at their production versus minutes." When you have a guy like JvR playing on a line with Carter, Richrds, Giroux, Briere etc, I would expect him to get more points than a player of equal talent playing on a line with lesser players. JvR's points in relation to ice time is higher, but its not like he is averaging a shockingly higher amount than MPS, and he has had two seasons under his belt. For all you know MPS drops 60 points this season. Now, I will admit, I have not seen MPS as much as I have seen JvR, obviously. And I would be willing to bet that that is the case for you, especially if you live in the Philadelphia area (maybe I am wrong, but as much as people on here like to think they are experts on every player in the NHL, very few people watch two different teams on a nightly. Maybe you do, but I would bet you don't). And maybe I am wrong and maybe you've seen MPS more than you have seen JvR. But from what I have seen of the two, read of the two, and what the two have output stat-wise, I don't think at this point in their careers you can really say that one's value is higher than the other. And by saying "just watch them play" isn't a great argument, because I could just sit here and say the same thing.

I'm not too sure how MPS's lack of Calder consideration really plays into the discussion. Same goes for how they are being brought along. Are you saying that because JvR is being brought along slower that has affected his point outputs and that if MPS was being brought along the same way in the Flyers organization MPS would have fewer points than JvR did and conversely that if JvR was on the Oilers he would have had more points?

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Old
09-02-2011, 11:14 AM
  #85
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Why would you guys want him, he has hands of stone.



Omark on the other hand, mini Forsberg, and that guy did pretty well in Philly.

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09-02-2011, 11:46 AM
  #86
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Old
09-02-2011, 01:04 PM
  #87
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DFF - Player value is not always based on what has been done already. Especially not in the case of two young forwards with their careers ahead of them. I know you think it's a cop out to say, but between MPS and JVR, unless you watch them both play and compare, you wont understand by just looking at the stat sheet.

It happens in the draft all the time. Two players score at a similar rate in the same league....one gets ranked in the top five, one barely makes the first round. But simply looking at the stats wouldnt tell you what makes one player the more valuable. It's why we have scouts. The scouts watch them play, and and then make the call as to who is a more dynamic player.

Between JVR and MPS, it's Van Riemsdyk who has shown a serious ability to dominate hockey games with his size and skill. MPS looks promising, but JVR looks as if he can be dominant. Looking at the stats would suggest that they are identical, but for the same reason we still employ scouts today, that argument does not hold up.

None of us are arguing that JVR will be better, only that at the current time, he has shown more and displayed flashes of potential that exceeds anything that Paajarvi has displayed to date. Higher potential = Higher value. It has nothing to do with the points. Just run through a couple drafts on hockeydb. You'll see players with similar stats taken at opposite ends of the first round. Ryan Johansen is a good example of such a player. He wasn't even a PPG player in the WHL in his draft year, and yet he was selected 4th overall over many players who outscored him in the same league in the same year.

It's the same logic that applies here and makes most fans value JVR over MPS. It's the potential that he's shown that MPS has yet to do. You might think it's a cop out, but scouts would disagree. It's the same reason why we still have them.

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09-02-2011, 02:22 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
DFF - Player value is not always based on what has been done already. Especially not in the case of two young forwards with their careers ahead of them. I know you think it's a cop out to say, but between MPS and JVR, unless you watch them both play and compare, you wont understand by just looking at the stat sheet.
I have seen them both play. Admittedly, I have seen JvR far more than MPS, but from what I have seen, read, etc., I see them as being equal at this point in their careers.

Quote:
It happens in the draft all the time. Two players score at a similar rate in the same league....one gets ranked in the top five, one barely makes the first round. But simply looking at the stats wouldnt tell you what makes one player the more valuable. It's why we have scouts. The scouts watch them play, and and then make the call as to who is a more dynamic player.

Between JVR and MPS, it's Van Riemsdyk who has shown a serious ability to dominate hockey games with his size and skill. MPS looks promising, but JVR looks as if he can be dominant. Looking at the stats would suggest that they are identical, but for the same reason we still employ scouts today, that argument does not hold up.
Look, I like JvR as much as the next guy (he will probably be my next jersey purchase). But outside of the Boston series last year, he has not shown that he can dominant. He has shown that he will be a good player, much like MPS has in his limited time in the NHL. Again, I'm not JUST looking at their stats. I am looking at their stats, coupled with their age, coupled with who they play with, coupled with what I have seen from them on the ice.

Quote:
None of us are arguing that JVR will be better, only that at the current time, he has shown more and displayed flashes of potential that exceeds anything that Paajarvi has displayed to date. Higher potential = Higher value. It has nothing to do with the points. Just run through a couple drafts on hockeydb. You'll see players with similar stats taken at opposite ends of the first round. Ryan Johansen is a good example of such a player. He wasn't even a PPG player in the WHL in his draft year, and yet he was selected 4th overall over many players who outscored him in the same league in the same year.

It's the same logic that applies here and makes most fans value JVR over MPS. It's the potential that he's shown that MPS has yet to do. You might think it's a cop out, but scouts would disagree. It's the same reason why we still have them.
Again. If you look at my posts, I am not solely relying on points. I saw how JvR played against Boston. It really was pretty amazing. But that was what? Two games? Three? He played well against Buffalo, and well the second half, but surely he didn't show anything prior to Boston that was dominating, or did I miss something? Again, I AM NOT KNOCKING JVR. But you can't base his value on one, maybe two playoff series and discount a younger player with less NHL playing time and playing on a far worse team simply because he hasn't "proven" anything, especially when we are talking about potential.

Aside from JvR's playoff performance, what has he shown that MPS has not?

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09-02-2011, 03:07 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I have seen them both play. Admittedly, I have seen JvR far more than MPS, but from what I have seen, read, etc., I see them as being equal at this point in their careers.



Look, I like JvR as much as the next guy (he will probably be my next jersey purchase). But outside of the Boston series last year, he has not shown that he can dominant. He has shown that he will be a good player, much like MPS has in his limited time in the NHL. Again, I'm not JUST looking at their stats. I am looking at their stats, coupled with their age, coupled with who they play with, coupled with what I have seen from them on the ice.



Again. If you look at my posts, I am not solely relying on points. I saw how JvR played against Boston. It really was pretty amazing. But that was what? Two games? Three? He played well against Buffalo, and well the second half, but surely he didn't show anything prior to Boston that was dominating, or did I miss something? Again, I AM NOT KNOCKING JVR. But you can't base his value on one, maybe two playoff series and discount a younger player with less NHL playing time and playing on a far worse team simply because he hasn't "proven" anything, especially when we are talking about potential.

Aside from JvR's playoff performance, what has he shown that MPS has not?
Ability to dominate.

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09-02-2011, 03:08 PM
  #90
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First off, I never even implied that you said MPS was better than JVR. I never said MPS wasn't a fantastic player that I wouldn't want to have. IMO, having watched them play, JVR is the better player now and barring something major happening, will be in the future too. I believe that any real live NHL GM would NOT see their values as being the same as any GM who had JVR on their team would NEVER trade him straight up for MPS. I'd take the over on the number of GM's that would take JVR over MPS. I do honestly believe that Emd would GLADLY trade MPS for JVR straight up if they could. That means that their trade values are NOT equal.


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I'm not really sure I agree with you here. First of all, I never once said in this thread that I wouldn't rather have JvR or that in the end MPS is going to be a hall of famer and JvR a nobody. What I am saying, and have been saying this entire time, is that right now, their value is comparable. MPS is younger, playing on a basement dwelling team with less support than JvR, but still putting up similar numbers to JvR when he was a year older. They are both players with high ceilings. I know JvR showed he has some serious ability in that Boston series, and I am not discounting anything he has done or is capable of, but one series doesn't mean he is a better player. Up until pretty much January of last season, I wasn't all that impressed. Now, obviously that has changed since his second half and playoffs were much better.

What I really don't get is how you are so sure of this without backing it up with anything other than saying "just watch them play" and "look at their production versus minutes." When you have a guy like JvR playing on a line with Carter, Richrds, Giroux, Briere etc, I would expect him to get more points than a player of equal talent playing on a line with lesser players. JvR's points in relation to ice time is higher, but its not like he is averaging a shockingly higher amount than MPS, and he has had two seasons under his belt. For all you know MPS drops 60 points this season. Now, I will admit, I have not seen MPS as much as I have seen JvR, obviously. And I would be willing to bet that that is the case for you, especially if you live in the Philadelphia area (maybe I am wrong, but as much as people on here like to think they are experts on every player in the NHL, very few people watch two different teams on a nightly. Maybe you do, but I would bet you don't). And maybe I am wrong and maybe you've seen MPS more than you have seen JvR. But from what I have seen of the two, read of the two, and what the two have output stat-wise, I don't think at this point in their careers you can really say that one's value is higher than the other. And by saying "just watch them play" isn't a great argument, because I could just sit here and say the same thing.
Right there you are wrong. JVr did spend most of his time with Richards at regular strength and his production WAS down. EVERYONE who plays along side richards at even strnegth has their production reduced. It's not a lack of ability on Richards behalf but a result of the FACT that his line was sent out to countermand the opposing teams top line. CARTER had his production drop as a result of playing on Richards line. This is fact, not some made up fantasy. Go look up the numbers if you will. We as a team have repeatedly "rewarded" Richards (and his linemates) for sacraficing point production for shutting down the opposing teams top line because it was best for the team by giving them first line PP duties. Go look up the percentage of points Richards and any of his linemates score on special teams compared to their total points and you'll see that when anyone is paired with Richards, almost without exception they all have a much higher percentage of their points come on special teams compared to when they WEREN'T on Richards line. This goes all the way back to when Gagne was on his wing. I did the numbers for everyone last year and I'm not about to do them again but feel free to look for yourself. Watch Richards put up 70-80 points of more this year when he isn't "saddled" with playing a shutdown role. It's not an indication that Richards somehow got better after leaving Philly nor that he has better linemates now it's that his role on his team has changed.

With JVR being played with Richards, he WAS forced to play a more defensive minded role, he was NOT permitted to open up his full offensive potential, and YES, his numbers were LESS than they could have been.


Quote:
I'm not too sure how MPS's lack of Calder consideration really plays into the discussion. Same goes for how they are being brought along. Are you saying that because JvR is being brought along slower that has affected his point outputs and that if MPS was being brought along the same way in the Flyers organization MPS would have fewer points than JvR did and conversely that if JvR was on the Oilers he would have had more points?
To this part, yes. I AM saying that if you switch JVR to the Oilers and MPS to the Flyers for their entire current careers that with Edm JVR's numbers would have been better than they were in Philly and that MPS's numbers would be worse with Philly than they were in Edm. It's all in how they would be and were used. I fail to see how this can be tough to understand. Did you watch JVR the past 2 years and how defensive responsible he's become?? Did you see how in his first year the Flyers only used JVR in limited situations and primarily only at even strength?? Is it so hard to understand that when you have guys like Briere, Carter, Richards, Gagne, Giroux, Hartnell, Versteeg, Leino and others that you don't HAVE to throw a rookie out there on the PP nor do you have to depend upon them to carry the offensive workload compared to a team like Edm that has very little experienced offensive talent and who HAD to throw guys like Hall and MPS into the fold right away and EXPECT them to carry the workload??? How is this tough to understand???

JVR is CERTAINLY talented enough to have been thrown into a role where he was counted on to carry a major portion of the offense and if he had then I'm certain that he WOULD have gotten some serious Calder consideration. I;m not saying he'd have won it but that he WOULD have been in the discussion that year. Even on a weak offense team like Edm, MPS was fairly underwhelming having been given to opportunity to excel and he was NOT in consideration for the Calder.

I am in no way calling him a bust. Quite the opposite, I REALY REALLY like him and he was my #2 pick that year and I still think he's going to be a great player.

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Old
09-02-2011, 03:27 PM
  #91
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I dont know if I missed or didnt miss your long posts phlocky haha

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09-02-2011, 04:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I would take JvR over MPS too, but its not like I'd scoff at MPS. This isn't like I'm saying Nodl (or even MPS) is better than JvR. This is another young, high ceiling player who has proven pretty much just as much as JvR has at this point and all I am saying is that at this point in time, I'd say their value is equal.
I must disagree, their value at this point is not close. JVR's game is much more complete.

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09-02-2011, 04:38 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
First off, I never even implied that you said MPS was better than JVR. I never said MPS wasn't a fantastic player that I wouldn't want to have. IMO, having watched them play, JVR is the better player now and barring something major happening, will be in the future too. I believe that any real live NHL GM would NOT see their values as being the same as any GM who had JVR on their team would NEVER trade him straight up for MPS. I'd take the over on the number of GM's that would take JVR over MPS. I do honestly believe that Emd would GLADLY trade MPS for JVR straight up if they could. That means that their trade values are NOT equal.




Right there you are wrong. JVr did spend most of his time with Richards at regular strength and his production WAS down. EVERYONE who plays along side richards at even strnegth has their production reduced. It's not a lack of ability on Richards behalf but a result of the FACT that his line was sent out to countermand the opposing teams top line. CARTER had his production drop as a result of playing on Richards line. This is fact, not some made up fantasy. Go look up the numbers if you will. We as a team have repeatedly "rewarded" Richards (and his linemates) for sacraficing point production for shutting down the opposing teams top line because it was best for the team by giving them first line PP duties. Go look up the percentage of points Richards and any of his linemates score on special teams compared to their total points and you'll see that when anyone is paired with Richards, almost without exception they all have a much higher percentage of their points come on special teams compared to when they WEREN'T on Richards line. This goes all the way back to when Gagne was on his wing. I did the numbers for everyone last year and I'm not about to do them again but feel free to look for yourself. Watch Richards put up 70-80 points of more this year when he isn't "saddled" with playing a shutdown role. It's not an indication that Richards somehow got better after leaving Philly nor that he has better linemates now it's that his role on his team has changed.

With JVR being played with Richards, he WAS forced to play a more defensive minded role, he was NOT permitted to open up his full offensive potential, and YES, his numbers were LESS than they could have been.




To this part, yes. I AM saying that if you switch JVR to the Oilers and MPS to the Flyers for their entire current careers that with Edm JVR's numbers would have been better than they were in Philly and that MPS's numbers would be worse with Philly than they were in Edm. It's all in how they would be and were used. I fail to see how this can be tough to understand. Did you watch JVR the past 2 years and how defensive responsible he's become?? Did you see how in his first year the Flyers only used JVR in limited situations and primarily only at even strength?? Is it so hard to understand that when you have guys like Briere, Carter, Richards, Gagne, Giroux, Hartnell, Versteeg, Leino and others that you don't HAVE to throw a rookie out there on the PP nor do you have to depend upon them to carry the offensive workload compared to a team like Edm that has very little experienced offensive talent and who HAD to throw guys like Hall and MPS into the fold right away and EXPECT them to carry the workload??? How is this tough to understand???

JVR is CERTAINLY talented enough to have been thrown into a role where he was counted on to carry a major portion of the offense and if he had then I'm certain that he WOULD have gotten some serious Calder consideration. I;m not saying he'd have won it but that he WOULD have been in the discussion that year. Even on a weak offense team like Edm, MPS was fairly underwhelming having been given to opportunity to excel and he was NOT in consideration for the Calder.

I am in no way calling him a bust. Quite the opposite, I REALY REALLY like him and he was my #2 pick that year and I still think he's going to be a great player.
It's clear that I am not going to change my opinion and you (and others) will not be changing theirs. I still don't think that JvR is in a different league than MPS like you and others are suggesting. He had a great playoffs, and if he can carry that over to an 82 game season, then yeah, I'll be eating my words and saying that JvR is more valuable. But he hasn't done that and I don't think anyone thinks that he is going to play like he did in game 2 of the Boston series consistently for the next 10 years. If he does, great, but I don't think he will. And I don't think MPS will either. But both will exceptional NHL players and when all is said and done I don't think people are going to forget about MPS while JvR gets a plaque in Toronto. Hopefully I am wrong because I am a huge JvR fan.

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09-03-2011, 02:40 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It's clear that I am not going to change my opinion and you (and others) will not be changing theirs. I still don't think that JvR is in a different league than MPS like you and others are suggesting. He had a great playoffs, and if he can carry that over to an 82 game season, then yeah, I'll be eating my words and saying that JvR is more valuable. But he hasn't done that and I don't think anyone thinks that he is going to play like he did in game 2 of the Boston series consistently for the next 10 years. If he does, great, but I don't think he will. And I don't think MPS will either. But both will exceptional NHL players and when all is said and done I don't think people are going to forget about MPS while JvR gets a plaque in Toronto. Hopefully I am wrong because I am a huge JvR fan.

I don't think that JVR is in a "different league" than MPS at all. They are both great young player. I think the diference is that JVR is a bonafied first line player with perenial all-star potneital written all over him while I think that MPS is a low end 1st line winger or top end 2nd line winger. The difference really isnt all that much. I DO think there is a difference and that MOST would agree with me (having watched both play and understanding more than just a cursery review of game play mechanincs).

I think that the difference between JVR an MPS is about the same as the difference between MPS and Voracek. Yeah MPs is better (or soon WILL be) than Voracek but the difference isn't all that much and it CERTAINLY isn't the value of our 1st nor Coburn. I certainly wouldn't expect Edm to give up someone like Coburn AND MPS to get JVR just like I don't think WE should be giving up Voracek plus Coburn for MPS as some have suggexted. Voracek is a very solid 2nd line winger who can potential fill in on the top line if needed. IMO that's not too far from where MPS will end up which isn't too far from where JVR will end up. I'm not holding JVR in the same lime light as the likes of Hall or Stamkos but he's certainly going to be a very very good player in this league.

Mark my words, he'll be the best talent we've had since Lindros (discounting an injured Forsberg that is). I am on record from years ago telling everyone to be patient with Carter as he'd need more time than Richards to break out. I also told people here 3 years ago to be patient with JVR as he'd track more like Carter in his developement while Girouz was primed for more immediate success like Richards was. I am also on record as having stated that of the 4 JVR would end up being the best and most dominant player. That's right, I'm telling you right now that in just a few short years, if you were given the opportunity to have just one to build a team around that you'd pick JVR over Richards, Carter and Giroux. Write this down if you want, IDK. I eat my crow when necessary and if I'm wron I WILL man up to it. However, barring some freak accident I would bet my last dollar that I'm right.

there's probably less than 50 players in the NHL that I'd take over JVR while there are probably a good 100 that I'd take over MPS.

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09-03-2011, 02:44 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I dont know if I missed or didnt miss your long posts phlocky haha

LOL. I know. Written language is a very poor form of communication TBH (as is backed up throughout history and the prevalence of wars fought over miscommunication from both written and spoken language though Jester is probably a better bank of information in this field than I am) so I'm always afraid that I;m not conveying my thoughts completely enough. That's why I tend to get so long winded.

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09-03-2011, 08:46 AM
  #96
DrinkFightFlyers
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I don't think that JVR is in a "different league" than MPS at all. They are both great young player. I think the diference is that JVR is a bonafied first line player with perenial all-star potneital written all over him while I think that MPS is a low end 1st line winger or top end 2nd line winger. The difference really isnt all that much. I DO think there is a difference and that MOST would agree with me (having watched both play and understanding more than just a cursery review of game play mechanincs).

I think that the difference between JVR an MPS is about the same as the difference between MPS and Voracek. Yeah MPs is better (or soon WILL be) than Voracek but the difference isn't all that much and it CERTAINLY isn't the value of our 1st nor Coburn. I certainly wouldn't expect Edm to give up someone like Coburn AND MPS to get JVR just like I don't think WE should be giving up Voracek plus Coburn for MPS as some have suggexted. Voracek is a very solid 2nd line winger who can potential fill in on the top line if needed. IMO that's not too far from where MPS will end up which isn't too far from where JVR will end up. I'm not holding JVR in the same lime light as the likes of Hall or Stamkos but he's certainly going to be a very very good player in this league.

Mark my words, he'll be the best talent we've had since Lindros (discounting an injured Forsberg that is). I am on record from years ago telling everyone to be patient with Carter as he'd need more time than Richards to break out. I also told people here 3 years ago to be patient with JVR as he'd track more like Carter in his developement while Girouz was primed for more immediate success like Richards was. I am also on record as having stated that of the 4 JVR would end up being the best and most dominant player. That's right, I'm telling you right now that in just a few short years, if you were given the opportunity to have just one to build a team around that you'd pick JVR over Richards, Carter and Giroux. Write this down if you want, IDK. I eat my crow when necessary and if I'm wron I WILL man up to it. However, barring some freak accident I would bet my last dollar that I'm right.

there's probably less than 50 players in the NHL that I'd take over JVR while there are probably a good 100 that I'd take over MPS.
Time will tell. Haha.

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Old
09-03-2011, 11:07 AM
  #97
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Old
09-03-2011, 11:41 AM
  #98
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[QUOTE=dingbathero;36411247]Do not want.[/QUOTE

Bump.

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Old
09-03-2011, 12:20 PM
  #99
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I didn't even take the time to read this last page (you guys can write some essays), but MPS is not even close to the same level as JVR, and probably will never be. His hands are mediocre and his shot is inconsistent.

Would I trade Voracek for him, let alone Vorcek++? No and Hell no

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