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Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)

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Old
09-05-2011, 05:35 AM
  #576
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Concussions are on the rise, but not because of fighting, they are on the rise due to the new rule changes, extreme speed of the game. If you really want to be serious about concussion crackdown, then we should should revisit some of the rules prior to the lockout. Let a dman slow down a forechecker, allow goalies to venture into the trapezoid to play the puck, so dman aren't hung out to dry and punish those illegal hits that result in serious injuries more effectively.(Max Pacioretty) The players of today have little respect for one another.
If I had to guess, that would be #1 reason why players are still OK with fighting, they probably feel more secure.

I mean, 80% of them dont even have a fight per season, why would they be OK with fighting if not for that insecurity

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09-05-2011, 06:12 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
If I had to guess, that would be #1 reason why players are still OK with fighting, they probably feel more secure.

I mean, 80% of them dont even have a fight per season, why would they be OK with fighting if not for that insecurity
Pretty fair guess imo, but I think people underestimate the value they can provide by allowing skill players to focus more on their skilled game.

The poll is telling, because the players polled were not all fighters, so even those who don't fight still believe it has a purpose. I personally believe hockey's unique nature requires some policing amongst those who participate. I think the players largely agree.

Not only that, but guys like Moen/White of the habs would gain the most if we employed one ourselves. I think Moen is a very good player playing a role he's not 100% suited for, if we had a true heavyweight he would instantly benefit from this. Knowing he doesn't have to answer the bell every time would give him some added mental confidence and obviously provide some physical protection from wear and tear over the long haul.

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09-05-2011, 07:57 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Having players who are good at fighting does not, in fact, increase the competitiveness of a team. All it does is increase the risk of injury for the sake of entertainment. As such, the comparison with mandatory helmet is perfectly apt.
You say that cause you can't rate confidence and momentum on a piece of paper. If 98% of the players don't want fighting banished cause thy don't think it's unnecessary, then clearly YOU ARE WRONG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Pretty fair guess imo, but I think people underestimate the value they can provide by allowing skill players to focus more on their skilled game.

The poll is telling, because the players polled were not all fighters, so even those who don't fight still believe it has a purpose. I personally believe hockey's unique nature requires some policing amongst those who participate. I think the players largely agree.

Not only that, but guys like Moen/White of the habs would gain the most if we employed one ourselves. I think Moen is a very good player playing a role he's not 100% suited for, if we had a true heavyweight he would instantly benefit from this. Knowing he doesn't have to answer the bell every time would give him some added mental confidence and obviously provide some physical protection from wear and tear over the long haul.
I agree, but we all know that this upcoming season is not the one where we will have a legit heavyweight in the line-up. But, this is a contract year for Moen and who Ibiza, Maybe hé and Ryan White will feed off from each other's energy and be one annoying 4th line. The Cunneyworth effect could also mean that Conboy or Henry stays with the big team in a limited role.


Last edited by Crimson Skorpion: 09-05-2011 at 08:24 AM. Reason: Merged
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09-05-2011, 09:11 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

I'm not sure what I can say to you here that I haven't said already.
Here I had a long response typed out on the other stuff, then I came to this and realised it was a waste of time.

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09-05-2011, 10:07 AM
  #580
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[QUOTE=Lafleurs Guy;36433407]First of all, nobody said it's a guarantee. Get that through your head.

Now go look at where stars get drafted... it happens with much greater frequency in the top 5 or top 10 than it does later on. We don't draft high and we don't trade for enough prospects that's why we don't have the stars that other clubs have had.

And I'm not sure why you're saying "especially for the Habs..." We've actually done very well for where we've drafted. Our ONLY top five pick in over 25 years is our best player and the guy everyone is hanging our hopes on for another cup. You say we haven't done well drafting high? How would you know? It hasn't happened except once and we got our best player out of it so what are you talking about?

Believe it or not in the past 25 years we've only had three top ten picks in the last 25 years as well. Two of those picks panned out with pretty decent players (which is what you would hope for from 5-10) and the other guy was a bust.

What exactly is your problem with the way we've drafted? We've drafted very well overall. And please don't come back here and try to cherrypick this pick or that pick... on the whole we've done much better than most clubs. We just haven't drafted high enough to get stars on a consistent basis nor have we done enough to trade for prospects that could help us down the road.

Fortunately we may have hit the jackpot with Subban and with our lottery win pick (that was a total fluke and gave us a top 5) with Price we might actually have two stars to build around. That doesn't mean we should continue going the route of getting older overpaid players like Gionta, Gomez and Cole...

Pleks is a good player, Subban looks like he could be great too... but why in the world would you think that we wouldn't draft better players if we had higher picks? You don't think we'd have drafted Sidney Crosby if we had first overall? Of course we would... problem is that you can't get him unless you have the top pick. As another example, you might know that Toews is the real deal. He's not a generational talent, but your scouts know that he's the best player in the draft... It doesn't matter if you drafting 15th overall. Those great players are already gone and you're left with whatever is left.

Some years (1979 and 2003) come along with a bumper crop and it doesn't matter as much but you're always better off letting your scouts have first pick at who they want... that's just common sense. How does picking 20th overall give you a better advantage than drafting 3rd?

No there aren't. There are other clubs out there who are contending or looking for quick fixes... Those are the clubs that you have to trade with. And just because clubs are in the basement it doesn't mean they're rebuilding. The Isles and Leafs are perfect examples of this. They sucked but continued to trade away all their picks. The Isles only had to keep what they had drafted and they'd have had a cup contending team but they did the opposite. So you are wrong here, 29 other clubs aren't out there doing this.

Nobody said it was easy... we've said the opposite. We've said that you have to be willing to pay a price to get those picks. That's something that we haven't shown any willingness to do and we've let a ton of players walk away from us with nothing in return.

And that has killed us.

Dude... YOU don't get it.

29 teams every year fail to win the cup. We all know this. Some of those failures are rebuilds and some aren't. But we are looking for what has made WINNING teams successful. Why should we try to learn from the Islanders and Leafs except to learn from their mistakes?

Strange that the cup winners are ones that HAVE those picks leading the way...[/QUOTE]

Oh boy, math was not your strong point in school now was it? I love how you focus on the exceptions not realizing that statistically, the chances for a team to repeat this strategy of top picks is almost nil. Don't you realize that the Islanders and a bunch of other teams had the same chance as Pittsburgh with top picks for a few years yet accomplished nothing!

Here's what Jay Feaster thinks about the situation:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...882/story.html

Funny that an actual competent GM thinks like us and yet, you the arm chair GM in is basement knows better?

Out of the last 6 seasons, after lock-out hockey, because before does not matter as the game as changed, half the teams won with such a pick (Pittsburgh, Chicago and Carolina) and the other half did not (Detroit, Boston & Anaheim). Pittsburgh being lucky with 2 generational talent, something that is unlikely to happen for a team tanking.

I really don't understand how someone can't see this will all these actual facts in there face.

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09-05-2011, 10:20 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
27. Should the Instigator Rule be abolished?

Players Response: NO - 65%

28. Should fighting be completely banished in the NHL?

Players Response:
- NO - 98%
- YES - 2%
Sooooo...

Who are these guys ?

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09-05-2011, 10:31 AM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
Sooooo...

Who are these guys ?
Georges Laraques is probably one of them

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09-05-2011, 11:08 AM
  #583
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That survey was conducted last winter, I wonder if the results would be as clear cut after this summer.

Also, before completely banishing it, there are intermediate steps we could take. For example, getting rid of the "staged fights". I don't know what percentage of all fights are staged, but it's certainly a significant portion. Also, if the argument is for heath reason, then it makes sense to first get rid of the goons, as they are the most susceptible of long-term health problems related to fighting (since they end up fighting way more than the average player).

How to remove staged fights - bow that's a completely different question...

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09-05-2011, 02:56 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
You say that cause you can't rate confidence and momentum on a piece of paper. If 98% of the players don't want fighting banished cause thy don't think it's unnecessary, then clearly YOU ARE WRONG!
Hockey players are notoriously conservative, and conservatism is about the only reason to keep allowing fighting. The question on whether fights help win hockey game has been extensively studied and the answer is somewhere between "no" and "not at all". And if "confidence and momentum" don't help win hockey games... then what's the point? Is fighting supposed to be there to be a safety blanket for insecure NHL players?

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09-05-2011, 03:09 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The question on whether fights help win hockey game has been extensively studied and the answer is somewhere between "no" and "not at all". And if "confidence and momentum" don't help win hockey games... then what's the point? Is fighting supposed to be there to be a safety blanket for insecure NHL players?
Not every aspect of the game is intended to "help win games". Fighting isn't suppose to help your team win games. Its there to give some players a release of their frustrations and take it out on the opposing team.

Anytime, I got into rough stuff in hockey, it wasn't to help my team win, it was because I was mad and didn't find it acceptable for the other players to treat me the way they did, so I took it into my own hands to protect myself.

Its about self respect, at least for me as a goalie, that was what it was about.

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09-05-2011, 04:16 PM
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan
Is fighting supposed to be there to be a safety blanket for insecure NHL players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Not every aspect of the game is intended to "help win games". Fighting isn't suppose to help your team win games. Its there to give some players a release of their frustrations and take it out on the opposing team.

Anytime, I got into rough stuff in hockey, it wasn't to help my team win, it was because I was mad and didn't find it acceptable for the other players to treat me the way they did, so I took it into my own hands to protect myself.

Its about self respect, at least for me as a goalie, that was what it was about.
So, to answer your question MathMan, yes, yes it is.

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09-05-2011, 04:26 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
You say that cause you can't rate confidence and momentum on a piece of paper. If 98% of the players don't want fighting banished cause thy don't think it's unnecessary, then clearly YOU ARE WRONG!
You can't really quantify the importance of a part of the game by counting how many players want to keep it. The players didn't want masks or helmets when they were first introduced. These are not doctors or great thinkers, they are sports stars.

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09-05-2011, 05:48 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
That survey was conducted last winter, I wonder if the results would be as clear cut after this summer.

Also, before completely banishing it, there are intermediate steps we could take. For example, getting rid of the "staged fights". I don't know what percentage of all fights are staged, but it's certainly a significant portion. Also, if the argument is for heath reason, then it makes sense to first get rid of the goons, as they are the most susceptible of long-term health problems related to fighting (since they end up fighting way more than the average player).

How to remove staged fights - bow that's a completely different question...

What you posted above is the reason why I shake my head in disbelief over a lot of the anti-fighting posts.

The "goons" that you are referring to are not being forced to fight. They fight because they love it and it provides them a paycheck.

You would have a valid point if the "goons" were led into the arenas kicking and screaming against their will because they have to fight. Sorta like the gladiators going up against the lions in the old Coliseum in ancient Rome.

But watch these guys. They enjoy the fighting. And watch Ryan White. He is not a goon and he loves a good scrap. Do you remember the huge smile on his face in the penalty box after he whipped Boychuck's ass?

You have every right to hate fighting on the ice or in real life. Its your choice to never engage in a fight. However, you need to understand that a lot of hockey players do not mind fighting and understand the reasons that they do it without complaint.

Projecting your beliefs onto the sport of hockey when the participants engaging in the actual sport disagree with you is absurd.

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09-05-2011, 06:55 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What you posted above is the reason why I shake my head in disbelief over a lot of the anti-fighting posts.

The "goons" that you are referring to are not being forced to fight. They fight because they love it and it provides them a paycheck.

You would have a valid point if the "goons" were led into the arenas kicking and screaming against their will because they have to fight. Sorta like the gladiators going up against the lions in the old Coliseum in ancient Rome.

But watch these guys. They enjoy the fighting. And watch Ryan White. He is not a goon and he loves a good scrap. Do you remember the huge smile on his face in the penalty box after he whipped Boychuck's ass?

You have every right to hate fighting on the ice or in real life. Its your choice to never engage in a fight. However, you need to understand that a lot of hockey players do not mind fighting and understand the reasons that they do it without complaint.

Projecting your beliefs onto the sport of hockey when the participants engaging in the actual sport disagree with you is absurd.
That's all interesting, but this has nothing to do with the health issue in hands (and my post).

We know people like fighting. We know fighters want to fight. But is it worth it if we are finding out it creates life threatening health issues? More than in the past, because of the size/strength of players? Or maybe it has always been there, but now we are more aware of it? Does it impacts only players who fight regularly, or in all cases?

There's a line that need to be traced - it's always been there, we are just asking openly if it needs to be redraw.

'wouldn't be the first activity to be restrained for health reason.

And btw... this is exactly what is my problem with pro-fighting fans. They all go on about how it is an integral part of the game, as hockey is so special and so macho, the players have the right to just lose it and its ok, that's just how though they are. But scratch a little, and in the end, the true reason for the fighting support is pure entertainment. People like to see two hockey players fight together, and that's the end of it.


Last edited by Mike8: 09-05-2011 at 07:32 PM. Reason: merge
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09-05-2011, 07:07 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Hockey players are notoriously conservative, and conservatism is about the only reason to keep allowing fighting. The question on whether fights help win hockey game has been extensively studied and the answer is somewhere between "no" and "not at all". And if "confidence and momentum" don't help win hockey games... then what's the point? Is fighting supposed to be there to be a safety blanket for insecure NHL players?
You make 3 claims in one post that have zero backing. We're suppose to believe you, because you say so. Players think fighting has role, because it does, not because they are mostly conservative. Studies on whether fighting helps win hockey games, lmao. Sure how was this conducted and how did they draw their conclusions? I'm pretty sure they were conducting a study to try and prove their preconceived notions. Who says confidence and momentum don't win hockey games, are you off your rocker? Seriously.

Have you every played hockey or any other sport mathman? I'm not trying to be smart here, have you?

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09-05-2011, 07:24 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
And btw... this is exactly what is my problem with pro-fighting fans. They all go on about how it is an integral part of the game, as hockey is so special and so macho, the players have the right to just lose it and its ok, that's just how though they are. But scratch a little, and in the end, the true reason for the fighting support is pure entertainment. People like to see two hockey players fight together, and that's the end of it.
Ballet is pure entertainment.

Fighting in hockey is about self-respect and sticking up for your teammates. Team building. Confidence that someone has your back. Trust.

Do you watch hockey fights or do you cringe and close your eyes in fear? Serious and honest question.

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09-05-2011, 07:28 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Ballet is pure entertainment.

Fighting in hockey is about self-respect and sticking up for your teammates. Team building. Confidence that someone has your back. Trust.

Do you watch hockey fights or do you cringe and close your eyes in fear? Serious and honest question.
Sometimes what I bolded is true, but more often it is a case of 2 5 minute a night engaging in a pointless fight that proves nothing about anything.

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09-05-2011, 07:28 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Have you every played hockey or any other sport mathman? I'm not trying to be smart here, have you?
Why do you ask "or any other sport"? Pro athletes in baseball, football, soccer, basketball, all sports more popular than hockey (except maybe basket?), don't fight in the normal course of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Do you watch hockey fights or do you cringe and close your eyes in fear? Serious and honest question.
I go get a beer.


Last edited by Mike8: 09-05-2011 at 07:34 PM. Reason: merge
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09-05-2011, 07:32 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Ballet is pure entertainment.

Fighting in hockey is about self-respect and sticking up for your teammates. Team building. Confidence that someone has your back. Trust.

Do you watch hockey fights or do you cringe and close your eyes in fear? Serious and honest question.
I personnaly switch channels when fights starts... I am sure I am not alone.

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09-05-2011, 07:42 PM
  #595
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But is it worth it if we are finding out it creates life threatening health issues?
I'm going to go a bit extreme here and say yes. Life involves risks, we don't live in a bubble. Everytime a race car driver goes 300 mph, he risks his life for our entertainment and its up to him to decide if that is worth his risk or not. Just like hockey players, take Ryan White for example, its his choice, he can either be talented enough to make the team on his own talents, and if he can't, its his choice to take up fighting.

That is the great thing about our society, people are free to make their own choices. Maybe we should ban hitting from hockey because it threatened MaxPac's life when Chara hit him, or because its broken the necks of players as well.

The question is, where do you draw the line? Fighting is already banned in hockey, you get a penalty for fighting.

Hockey is just a rougher sport than baseball, hence more fights. Baseball doesn't have automatic suspensions for players who fight, in fact, baseballl is probably more "pro fighting" in the sense that they don't have set penalties for fighting and players can go unpunished for fighting.

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09-05-2011, 08:07 PM
  #596
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Why do you ask "or any other sport"? Pro athletes in baseball, football, soccer, basketball, all sports more popular than hockey (except maybe basket?), don't fight in the normal course of the game.



I go get a beer.
I believe confidence and momentum play a role in all sports, not just hockey, how about you, no?

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09-05-2011, 08:17 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Why do you ask "or any other sport"? Pro athletes in baseball, football, soccer, basketball, all sports more popular than hockey (except maybe basket?), don't fight in the normal course of the game.



I go get a beer.
Baseball fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLg-p_4XrVo

NFL Fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZnLAYoNYJ8

Soccer fight

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_829207.html

NBA Fights

http://*******************/articles/...st-two-seasons

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09-05-2011, 08:20 PM
  #598
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I suppose I'm speechless. Do you feel that fights happen in the norm in these sports?

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09-05-2011, 08:22 PM
  #599
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I think the operative word there was 'normal'.

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09-05-2011, 09:40 PM
  #600
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I suppose I'm speechless. Do you feel that fights happen in the norm in these sports?
No, not at all. Fighting is banned in those sports.

Must have been an abnormal game or two or more.

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