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Phillies' Baseball (MLB): National Leeague Eastern Division Champs

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Old
09-05-2011, 08:35 PM
  #701
King Forsberg
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That Cliff Lee guy pitched alright. Was hoping he would be designated for assignment once Blanton came back.

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09-05-2011, 08:35 PM
  #702
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100 pitches, shutout...this man is ridiculous.

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09-05-2011, 08:37 PM
  #703
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How come no one really talks about Cliff Lee for Cy Young? At least that's how it seems.

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09-05-2011, 08:38 PM
  #704
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100 pitches, shutout...this man is ridiculous.
The guy is just a amazing pro. What can you say about his performance.

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09-05-2011, 08:52 PM
  #705
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This

and if you guys haven't seen this already check it out

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com...i_vid&c_id=phi

The first half of the clip has the Florida announcers "take" on the whole situation. What d@uche bags. they are so ignorant it honestly offends me that they have a job.
That link must've been updated because I'm getting nothing but Franzke and L.A. on that video clip. Still, it's pretty well known the Marlins' team are pretty bad. One could call them the MLB equivalent of the Penguins' broadcast team, except they might get away with more since no one really watches them. They lost all credibility to me on how they reacted after the controversial "foul" call that Madson got the benefit of when it should've been a game winning hit. Was it a bad call? Yeah, but they went ape ****.


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How come no one really talks about Cliff Lee for Cy Young? At least that's how it seems.
Halladay is on this team, Hamels was pretty good most of the year, and Lee got off to a bit of a slow start, comparatively speaking. Kershaw has been flat out incredible too. But in light of the fact that Halladay isn't getting many decisions, and Kershaw kinda fell flat yesterday and Cliff is in the middle of another great streak, that should up attention for his bid on a CY.

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09-05-2011, 08:55 PM
  #706
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How come no one really talks about Cliff Lee for Cy Young? At least that's how it seems.
His stats are better than Doc's. I'm surprised as many people talk about Halladay for the Cy Young and put him in for a lock to win. But as of right now, it's Kershaw's to lose imo.


Weird thing is...I'd also give the MVP to Kemp. When was the last time the Cy Young and MVP were on the same team...and that team was terrible?

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09-05-2011, 08:56 PM
  #707
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How come no one really talks about Cliff Lee for Cy Young? At least that's how it seems.
I think he is going to win it, as long as he doesnt have a September meltdown.

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09-05-2011, 09:02 PM
  #708
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Old
09-05-2011, 09:49 PM
  #709
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His stats are better than Doc's. I'm surprised as many people talk about Halladay for the Cy Young and put him in for a lock to win. But as of right now, it's Kershaw's to lose imo.
How can it be? Their stats are pretty much identical...

Clayton Kershaw 17-5, 2.45, 205.2ip, 160h, 62r, 56er, 50bb, 222k, 1.02whip, 5cg, 2so

Cliff Lee 16-7, 2.47, 203.2ip, 170h, 58r, 56er, 40bb, 204k, 1.03whip, 6cg, 6so

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09-05-2011, 09:54 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
How can it be? Their stats are pretty much identical...

Clayton Kershaw 17-5, 2.45, 205.2ip, 160h, 62r, 56er, 50bb, 222k, 1.02whip, 5cg, 2so

Cliff Lee 16-7, 2.47, 203.2ip, 170h, 58r, 56er, 40bb, 204k, 1.03whip, 6cg, 6so
Kershaw has the slight lead in almost all the categories besides SHO and BBs. Kershaw will most likely also receive higher votes because he's on a worse team. Much worse team.

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Old
09-05-2011, 10:15 PM
  #711
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Kershaw has the slight lead in almost all the categories besides SHO and BBs. Kershaw will most likely also receive higher votes because he's on a worse team. Much worse team.
Fair enough but the team around him shouldn't matter if the stats are similar, I don't think that's enough to push Kershaw that far ahead. And surprisingly, Kershaw has almost a run better in support, 5.69 to 4.86.

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09-05-2011, 10:32 PM
  #712
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this seriously made me lol... that jumbo dome is awesome

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Old
09-05-2011, 10:36 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Fair enough but the team around him shouldn't matter if the stats are similar, I don't think that's enough to push Kershaw that far ahead. And surprisingly, Kershaw has almost a run better in support, 5.69 to 4.86.
Ah that I didn't know, and would swing it close to even, at least.

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Old
09-05-2011, 11:49 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Kershaw has the slight lead in almost all the categories besides SHO and BBs. Kershaw will most likely also receive higher votes because he's on a worse team. Much worse team.
Kershaw also pitches in one of the most pitcher-friendly parks in baseball.

1.80 ERA at HOME v. 3.13 ERA AWAY
.511 OPS at HOME v. .621 OPS AWAY

Lee (and other Phils pitchers) are in a batter-friendly park.

2.13 ERA at HOME v. 3.18 ERA AWAY
.560 OPS at HOME v. .673 OPS AWAY

And the bad team effect is traditionally the exact opposite. If your team is bad, that really hurts your voting potential unless you're a clear favorite (Felix Hernandez, for example).

None of this is to suggest that Kershaw is not a legit contender for the Cy Young, but there are mitigating circumstances that are going to hurt him. Pitchers have been taking advantage of LA's ballpark for years to post good statistical seasons, and voters are well aware of that. On top of that, his team is terrible... so who cares? -- which isn't really fair, but that's the way it has tended to go.

The real interesting thing is how the Phils pitchers may divide votes a bit and weaken a single candidate.

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Old
09-06-2011, 09:56 AM
  #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And the bad team effect is traditionally the exact opposite. If your team is bad, that really hurts your voting potential unless you're a clear favorite (Felix Hernandez, for example).
Usually that's also an effect of the emphasis placed on W-L records in Cy Young voting. However, Kershaw has a much better record than we saw with Felix last year already.

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Old
09-06-2011, 10:01 AM
  #716
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Anyone else notice John Locke from Lost in the game last night?


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Old
09-06-2011, 10:04 AM
  #717
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Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
Usually that's also an effect of the emphasis placed on W-L records in Cy Young voting. However, Kershaw has a much better record than we saw with Felix last year already.
That's true, but traditionalist voters don't like voting for guys on crappy teams... which is terribly unfair, but the way it goes (in all sports, really).

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Old
09-06-2011, 10:28 AM
  #718
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That's true, but traditionalist voters don't like voting for guys on crappy teams... which is terribly unfair, but the way it goes (in all sports, really).
That's not really true though. Over the past several years, at least one major award has come from a non-playoff team.

Hernadnez (2010 CY)
Greinke (2009 CY)
Pujols (2008 MVP)
Lee (2008 CY)
Peavy (2007 CY)
Howard (2006 MVP)
Webb (2006 CY)

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Old
09-06-2011, 10:48 AM
  #719
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's not really true though. Over the past several years, at least one major award has come from a non-playoff team.

Hernadnez (2010 CY)
Greinke (2009 CY)
Pujols (2008 MVP)
Lee (2008 CY)
Peavy (2007 CY)
Howard (2006 MVP)
Webb (2006 CY)
Hernandez was CLEARLY the best pitcher last year. If he had not won, it would have been criminal.

Same story with Greinke in 2009.

STL went 86-76, far from a crappy team (Dodgers are a sub .500 team in a bad division -- the WC came out of the NL Central that year).

Cliff Lee was 22-3 with the lowest ERA in the AL next closest being Halladay.

Peavy was the best pitcher in the NL and it wasn't even close... SD also had 89 wins that year.

Howard led the majors in HR and RBI... Phils were also 85-77, falling just shy of the WC.

Webb is the only guy on a crappy team in that group to win without having a CLEARLY superior season to any other player, and it was also a year in which no one had really great years in the NL for a pitcher.

Kershaw is not CLEARLY superior to Halladay or Lee, and he also pitches in a park that really helps pitchers and always has. I would be pretty shocked if the old guard goes for Kershaw over voting for Halladay and Lee, but I could see Kershaw sneaking in if he accumulates some 2nd place votes at one of those two's expense with split voting occurring.

I would agree that it's an easier path for a pitcher to get the Cy Young on a crappy team than the MVP award... but the MVP field for the NL is a mess this year.

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Old
09-06-2011, 11:05 AM
  #720
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Any chance that lee or halladay are in MVP contention?

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Old
09-06-2011, 11:07 AM
  #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hernandez was CLEARLY the best pitcher last year. If he had not won, it would have been criminal.

Same story with Greinke in 2009.

STL went 86-76, far from a crappy team (Dodgers are a sub .500 team in a bad division -- the WC came out of the NL Central that year).

Cliff Lee was 22-3 with the lowest ERA in the AL next closest being Halladay.

Peavy was the best pitcher in the NL and it wasn't even close... SD also had 89 wins that year.

Howard led the majors in HR and RBI... Phils were also 85-77, falling just shy of the WC.

Webb is the only guy on a crappy team in that group to win without having a CLEARLY superior season to any other player, and it was also a year in which no one had really great years in the NL for a pitcher.

Kershaw is not CLEARLY superior to Halladay or Lee, and he also pitches in a park that really helps pitchers and always has. I would be pretty shocked if the old guard goes for Kershaw over voting for Halladay and Lee, but I could see Kershaw sneaking in if he accumulates some 2nd place votes at one of those two's expense with split voting occurring.

I would agree that it's an easier path for a pitcher to get the Cy Young on a crappy team than the MVP award... but the MVP field for the NL is a mess this year.
I'm not really suggesting that Kershaw is going to win, as I don't even think he is the best pitcher this year regardless of where he is playing or which team he is on. But voters seem to care a lot less these days about what team you are on.

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Old
09-06-2011, 11:18 AM
  #722
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I'm not really suggesting that Kershaw is going to win, as I don't even think he is the best pitcher this year regardless of where he is playing or which team he is on. But voters seem to care a lot less these days about what team you are on.
'Cept that doesn't really hold up, as just noted. Webb was the only one that won on a crappy team without being a CLEAR winner. If you voted for someone other than Hernandez and Greinke, then you should have lost your right to vote for the award.

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09-06-2011, 11:19 AM
  #723
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Any chance that lee or halladay are in MVP contention?
Probably not, they hate giving it to pitchers... and, on top of that, it's difficult to really make a strong case that either is that valuable... just because you have the other, and then Hamels sitting there -- no to mention Worley, who has pitched great. While losing either would hurt a lot in the playoffs, over the course of the regular season the Phils would be a very good team with or without one of Lee/Halladay.

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09-06-2011, 11:21 AM
  #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
'Cept that doesn't really hold up, as just noted. Webb was the only one that won on a crappy team without being a CLEAR winner. If you voted for someone other than Hernandez and Greinke, then you should have lost your right to vote for the award.
But it does hold up. I must say, it really is awe inspiring to read the words of someone who has never been and likely will never be wrong. I just listed you a handful of guys who won major awards on teams that didn't make the playoffs, three of them on some of the worst in the league. Somehow, that doesn't matter because those guys CLEARLY should have won so in that case people will vote for them. But they will not vote for guys who don't deserve to win. So people only vote for guys on bad teams when they deserve to win? Great argument. Can't you just this once, admit that you are wrong? As far as the other players being on good teams, I'd beg to differ. You don't make the playoffs, you aren't on a good team.

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Old
09-06-2011, 11:26 AM
  #725
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Probably not, they hate giving it to pitchers... and, on top of that, it's difficult to really make a strong case that either is that valuable... just because you have the other, and then Hamels sitting there -- no to mention Worley, who has pitched great. While losing either would hurt a lot in the playoffs, over the course of the regular season the Phils would be a very good team with or without one of Lee/Halladay.
Good points, and think voters are likely to look at it that way. For me MVP should be more about overall impact than relative team value. For example, halladay has a crazy WAR total this season last I looked

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