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All purpose 'Does fighting belong in the NHL?' thread

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Old
09-05-2011, 11:48 PM
  #101
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
You're good at baiting, as well as misconstruing facts. Unfortunately for you, my post is earlier on this page. I directly stated players like Clutterbuck and Tootoo and asked for players like them in the '70s. Those two are known for charging.

I'm not moving any goalposts by the way, habsjunkie2. Read back to my first post in this thread: I posted about fighting and charging.
Mike. No big deal.

There is no way that I can find specifically charging penalties that were handed out from 1970 to 1979. So that's a moot point. All I know is that there were a lot of hard nosed and hard hitting hockey players in the 70's who racked up a lot of PIMs and dished out pain when they were on the ice. Whether they were for charging or roughing or slashing, that will remain a mystery.

So we will agree to disagree.

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09-06-2011, 12:09 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
No need to apologise at all. I normally enjoy discussions with you as well.

...

Anyway, back on topic with this thread: I've seen a few posters, yourself included I believe, state that they don't think fighting will ever be 'banned' from the game. I'm wondering if this is true. The sport has tried to distance itself from the 'bloodsport' label for awhile now and several rule changes have led, directly or indirectly, to making enforcers obsolete. Enforcers have (ironically, given their livelihoods) come out discussing how difficult and anxiety-ridden their jobs are. I'm wondering if this could all culminate in the banning of fighting sometime in the future.

I really question how the NHL views fighting purely from a viewership standpoint. If it were as entertaining as we think, why would the NHL want to limit it and render goons obsolete?
I don't think fighting will ever be banned. I still believe fighting can have a protective role. The game has evolved in a very dangerous way guys running around hitting people with no retribution from the league, no retribution from the team, stick work, head shots, blind side hits are becoming more prevalent, these are much more concerning to me. I believe if these guys answered the call on the spot like they used to there would be far less of it in the first place.

I don't really agree with staged fights either, but retribution and fights based on emotions, i'm all for.

I would like the league to remove the instigator for 2 years and see what happens. Kind of an interim basis. If it doesn't help, bring it back. Cut a roster spot by one, so teams can't afford to carry players who can't skate or play and have only fighters who can play too.


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09-06-2011, 12:26 AM
  #103
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they should start by banning steroids and drugs

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09-06-2011, 01:37 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Can hockey be played without hands? No it can't.

I agree it can be played without goons or fighting, I just believe the main focus for the time being should be cheap shots and blindside head shots, not fighting. In order to make the eliminating of fighting more affective you need to first abolish cheap shotting, selective officiating (i.e. play it by the book not by ear) and head shots. Then you can eliminate fighting because the enforcer as we know it won't have a purpose anymore. If you eliminate enforcers without eliminating cheap shots twice as many will happen. And yes if you ban fighting guys like Avery will do everything in their power to try and make you fight. Just because it's banned doesn't mean a real agitator can't convince somebody to start a fight. Plain and simple.

Personally if you could eliminate it all and make it a clean game based around talent and skill I'd be happy. All lines would have a tremendous amount of talent rather than goons.

But to use these three deaths as reasoning behind abolishing fighting is absolutely absurd.

I've said it and I'll say it again.

Boogaard accidental overdose not suicide
Rypien suicide
Belak was happy as a clam. Does it mean he wasn't depressed? Of course not. But the auto erotic asphixiation story holds a lot more weight than one of the happiest guys ever who had everything going for him, family, brand new job he looked forward to, etc, killing himself. Not saying it isn't what happened but frankly there's more leaning in favor of him being an accidental death than being a suicide. It makes a lot more sense.

Then there's the copycat affect too. But even then the bottom line is even if Belak was depressed we can't know conclusively (not even close either) that his depression was as a result of being an enforcer or a concussion etc. So really it's a moot point and this is why Todd is a ****ing idiot and is just feeding into the crazies with this article in an attempt to get readers. Good on him because he got them, and scrubs like him are going to blow this totally out of proportion.

Honestly I don't get why people connect dots that clearly aren't there. Stop reading into media propaganda and look at the actual circumstances of each death. Not saying Belak couldn't have been depressed just because he was an extrovert and happy guy on the outside just saying the odds are it doesn't fit.



Don't disagree. Would rather a more talented player in that spot if anything. Fighting based on emotion is a lot better than two guys like Laraque fighting for no reason.



And no suspension to Chara either. Meanwhile had Andrei Kostitsyn ended Chara's season I bet you can be sure since Chara is a star player there would be consequences. Stars always get the benefit of the doubt over non-stars.
You just once again proved my point: those who defend fighting in hockey too often use the whole "hockey is a dangerous sport" argument to defend their cause. That is just plain false to me. Hockey, like all sports, has a certain degree of danger associated to it. That said, all of the other hazards of hockey are inherent to the practice of the sport: without them, you wouldn't be able to play. Without hands, you can't play hockey. And hockey players don't use their hands to punch people. They use them to shoot, deke, pass, etc.

Fighting's one and only purpose is to hurt your oponent. I don't agree with anyone that says that ANY other aspects of clean hockey is to hurt your oponent, including body checking. Yes, nowadays some player do it to send their victim to the ER. But that is not clean hockey.

Fighting and hockey are incompatible. The surface is solid and dangerous. Players often take off their helmets, risking severe brain damage when they get taken down to the ice. Athletes are not classified in categories, meaning one fighter might be a LOT more skilled than the other, risking very bad injuries. They fight without gloves to mitigate some of the damage. It's a stupid and useless risk to take.

Those who say that fights help prevent cheap shots are day dreaming. It's been said times and times again: some of the WORST cheap shots in hockey's history occured before the instigator rule. What this sport needs is some damn rules enforcement. This is getting silly. You want to stop cheap shots? Just get heavy penalties to those who do them. Even if he's a superstar. Vigilante justice has been eradicated from our society for hundreds of years. Why does it still somehow belong in hockey?

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09-06-2011, 02:18 AM
  #105
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One of the worst cheapshot in hockey is Bertuzzi's.

Not trying to blame it on Moore or anything but if Moore accepted to fight a Canuck after the Naslund incident, I don't think Bertuzzi would go to the point of sucker punch him.

My point is, if they decide to ban fighting, I have a feeling that the players will have no choice to cheapshot/suckerpunch an opponent out of rage instead of fair fist fight.

Fighting has existed for over 90 years in hockey, and no one has died or was heavily handicapped because of it. It has always been a part of hockey without any major incident. Now because 3 goons happened to die in one summer, people are acting like fighting in the nhl killed them. All the best player in the NHL have fought at least one or twice in their career. What's the big deal. Of course, excessive fighting will likely cause more damage to the head/brains but that's the choice of the players that does it. They do it because they have "no" choice. That's the only way for them to play in this league. Its a hard and risky choice but its theirs. Like the people working in dangerous job such as policeman, fireman, miners.. risky jobs but someone has to do it.

I agree that staged fight are useless and unnecessary but a good fight between two willing players to settle things is good for the game.


Last edited by Stradale: 09-06-2011 at 02:26 AM.
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09-06-2011, 02:47 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
One of the worst cheapshot in hockey is Bertuzzi's.

Not trying to blame it on Moore or anything but if Moore accepted to fight a Canuck after the Naslund incident, I don't think Bertuzzi would go to the point of sucker punch him.
http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/...htcard/reg2004

He fought Matt Cooke in the Bertuzzi Incident game... which is the only fight hockeyfights has him involved in... ever.

Dropping the gloves with a Canuck sure helped Moore out a whole lot.

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09-06-2011, 03:18 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Momentum is like fresh milk. It has a very short expiration date.

Momentum ebbs and flows during a game. You may have it in the first period and zero the next two. A big hit, and yes, a fight, can change momentum. Sometimes positively or sometimes negatively.

As I said, it is not quantifiable and no stat can measure it. It is real though. It happens in every game.

Confidence comes from knowing that you have the ability to alter momentum during a game. Again, not quantifiable although very real..
So, what you're saying is fighting doesnt bring any more confidence/momentum than a goal or a great save for example ?

good to know...

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09-06-2011, 03:20 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Roke View Post
http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/...htcard/reg2004

He fought Matt Cooke in the Bertuzzi Incident game... which is the only fight hockeyfights has him involved in... ever.

Dropping the gloves with a Canuck sure helped Moore out a whole lot.
Wow thanks for the clarifications. Guess thats a pretty bad example.

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09-06-2011, 04:19 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
I think it's possible to ban fighting and control cheap shots. Soccer, for example, allows physical contact, yet it heavily penalizes cheap shots and fouls. All it takes is the enforcement of rules and the culture would change pretty quick.

Soccer is also a good model because the professional game resembles the amateur game. The rules are identical. Sure, it's rougher, but there's no need to envision fighting as necessary. In hockey, there's a sudden shift from no fighting to fighting. A lot of people are just not into fighting in any form, nor do they want to be a part of such an environment, nor be intimidated. My nephew quit hockey for that reason. Not interested in fighting.

Why is that when the Olympics or World Cup come around fighting ceases to be necessary?

The bottom line is that fighting is only necessary because the rules are not sufficiently enforced or penalized. And because it's not banned from the game. If it were banned, and if fouls were penalized accordingly, it wouldn't take long before the culture changed and players acted accordingly. It would be a very easy transition in my opinion. I would argue the only thing sustaining fighting right now is that some teams exploit it, and that causes other teams to arm themselves in defense. The habs are good example. But if you disarm the entire league, all those teams that never wanted any part of it will make the transition without difficulty.

Just wanted to repost your interesting post...interesting questions.

Also...WJC hockey is always exciting, and there's no fighting.

Maybe adding one more referee can help (and not hurt?).

No matter what...the league has got to do something about head shots, blind shots, hits from behind, violent slashing (or any kind of slashing). Give MAJOR SUSPENSIONS and don't wait till a player does it twice (ex: Matt Cooke). SEVERLEY PUNISH a player right away (Chara on Pacioretty...Chara was seeking revenge and that is
100% sure, it's not a guess ; Cooke on Savard).

M.Savard: may never play in the NHL again...Cooke will play again.
Chara: won a Cup and almost killed a player before playoffs started...got away with it.


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 09-06-2011 at 04:35 AM.
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09-06-2011, 08:59 AM
  #110
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I really question how the NHL views fighting purely from a viewership standpoint. If it were as entertaining as we think, why would the NHL want to limit it and render goons obsolete?
It would be interesting to know for sure. I wonder if the head honchos (e.g. Bettman) even have a personal opinion that isn't tied to the bottom line of the league. Maybe they don't. My gut says the masses of fandom like fighting, violence, blood, car crashes, WWF, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, etc, and do view it as entertainment. But I'm not sure that is the same as the best thing for the bottom line for the league as getting network TV contracts. Maybe at the moment, the NHL is more worried about being able to fill seats in some of the southern markets, and maybe they are erring on the side of allowing more violence now, to keep those seats as full as possible, when there really isn't a network carrot out there at all at the moment. Maybe it would change again if the arenas were more consistently full and the carrot rematerialized.

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09-06-2011, 09:14 AM
  #111
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I don't think you have to ban fighting, during a game the emotion can boil over, and a hockey fight can occur which can be good for the game at that time.....it's the BS of a staged fight, or some guy feels the need to go out and feel the need to get some retribution because of an injustice to one of his main players.....

There is even the BS of having to defend yourself, after a CLEAN hit, that I have never understood.....a guy lays a guy out with a clean hit, and now 2-3 guys on the other team are running around trying to get back at the guy who laid the clean hit...

Anyhow, maybe to get rid of the staged BS fights, they can just throw the 2 combatants out, as vs the hockey fight, based on a play or emotion at that time of a game that in a ref's opinion was not staged, could still be a 5 min major...

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09-06-2011, 09:16 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And, can you show me a study that precisely quantifies exactly what confidence and momentum are and how they can be measured on a stats sheet?
Humm, first, you don't absolutely need stats to come up with an answer... and second, you're the one making that claim about confidence and momentum, so YOU have the burden to prove your point... and the answer is still no, you can't prove that.

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09-06-2011, 09:56 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by KILLger View Post
I think this is a great idea. They should rule out fighting in UFA, Boxing, Wrestling, too.
Thanks for the insight. How about we look at this way: could we take goal scoring out of UFA, boxing and wrestling?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
I find it hilarious that when a reporter decides to cover something this big, they don't bring in some opinions from the other side? You're in the media, pull aside an enforcer or two and ask them how they feel about fighting, it's importance in the game and the dangers that come with it. Instead, we are fed one-sided bull. Besides the fact that the three deaths in hockey over the past few months have been enforcers, the only other example he provides is that Chara crushed Ivanans' orbital bone, and he could have died.

Hey, I remember once when Gorges took a slapshot to the head and could have died. Should we ban slapshots now? Okay, let's remove fighting. Cheap shots will continue to happen and then in a few years, Jack will be calling for the game to ban hitting altogether.
Of course there's an equivalency between a hockey play designed to score a goal (which is the object of the game) and a potentially lethal blow resulting from a punishable act.

Take a look at an x-ray of Todd Fedoruk's face and tell me how much more evidence you need. Yes, some of the titanium is there from accidental pucks, but then again, nobody told him not to wear a shield, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68 View Post
I don't know about you guys but if I was an NHL player I would be more scared of:

-Hits to the head
-Hits from behind
-Apes like Chara driving my head in the stanchion
-Slap shots to the face/neck
-Skates to the face/neck
-Sticks to the eye
-Etc...

than I would ever be of fighting. Don't wanna fight? Fine, don't fight. Don't like goons that can't play hockey and only fight? Fine, ban them. Wanna make fighting safer by changing the rules? Fine.

But banning fighting completely would be dumb. I'd rather see a guy take out his frustration on another player by pounding his face with his fists instead of resorting to dangerous stick work or dangerous hits.
Why does anyone need to "take out his frustration"? Last time I checked, I was teaching my JK-aged daughter not to throw hissy fits. Somehow hockey players are expected to behave in ways we would not tolerate from four-year-olds?

What happened to the emotional lift derived from, say, scoring a goal or making a good defensive play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
I don't think you have to ban fighting, during a game the emotion can boil over, and a hockey fight can occur which can be good for the game at that time.....it's the BS of a staged fight, or some guy feels the need to go out and feel the need to get some retribution because of an injustice to one of his main players.....

There is even the BS of having to defend yourself, after a CLEAN hit, that I have never understood.....a guy lays a guy out with a clean hit, and now 2-3 guys on the other team are running around trying to get back at the guy who laid the clean hit...

Anyhow, maybe to get rid of the staged BS fights, they can just throw the 2 combatants out, as vs the hockey fight, based on a play or emotion at that time of a game that in a ref's opinion was not staged, could still be a 5 min major...
You're onto something because if you follow the logic of your proposal, it seems to recognize the absurdity and uselessness of having two guys around to pummel each other. Why have them? If all you end up doing is delaying the game so they can chuck knuckles and then be thrown out, why keep them? End the charade. Just have an MMA spin-off for on-ice fighting and leave hockey alone.


Last edited by Habs 4 Life: 09-06-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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Old
09-06-2011, 10:19 AM
  #114
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Increase penalties to a game misconduct for staged fights, ie the Georges Laraque Special. Keep the penalties as is for fights that happen in the normal flow of a game.

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09-06-2011, 10:32 AM
  #115
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Increase penalties to a game misconduct for staged fights, ie the Georges Laraque Special. Keep the penalties as is for fights that happen in the normal flow of a game.
You really want to bring another subjective criteria to the rule book so to give increase power to referees and the league ?

What is a staged fight ? Two guys dropping them at the faceoffs ? Most fights, even from "non-fighters", happen this way. How about fights near the goalie crease, after a save, from enforcers ? Isn't what you call "flow of the game" even if most of them are "staged" or "planned" in order to intimidate the opponent...

Just remove the human element in this and get rid of fights all together. If you get a game suspension or more after a fight, you'll be sure that the players involved in a fight will have done it because of emotions, not because of their paychecks, the stupid crowd or the game score.

...'cause we all know that any fights involving, lets say Zdeno Chara, will be ruled as a "legal" fight no matter what...

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09-06-2011, 12:57 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
You really want to bring another subjective criteria to the rule book so to give increase power to referees and the league ?

What is a staged fight ? Two guys dropping them at the faceoffs ? Most fights, even from "non-fighters", happen this way. How about fights near the goalie crease, after a save, from enforcers ? Isn't what you call "flow of the game" even if most of them are "staged" or "planned" in order to intimidate the opponent...

Just remove the human element in this and get rid of fights all together. If you get a game suspension or more after a fight, you'll be sure that the players involved in a fight will have done it because of emotions, not because of their paychecks, the stupid crowd or the game score.

...'cause we all know that any fights involving, lets say Zdeno Chara, will be ruled as a "legal" fight no matter what...
This. The game is pretty evenly played these days anyway, and teams carry around reserve players. The loss of a player who got in a fight for part of a game, or even for an auto suspension in the next game, isn't really a big deal. And coaches don't want their star players to fight anyway; if there is a disincentive in terms of playing time lost in addition to the disincentive of injury risk, that's probably all for the good. Good players will have to learn to pass on any invitations, and turtle on any attacks, but that's really what they should be doing anyway.

I have to think the NHL will be far slower to evolve than this, however. Give it 20 more years, let a few more dinosaurs disappear.

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09-06-2011, 01:33 PM
  #117
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Count me among those who changed their mind about fighting in the last 1-2 years. I always supported it, thinking it was part of hockey. But the more I read about the real consequences of fighting that often (brain injuries, substance abuse, mental illness, etc.) as reported by former enforcers, the more I'm convinced it doesn't belong in the NHL anymore. More and more former enforcers are calling for a fighting ban, and those are the opinions I value the most. They know exactly what they're talking about. We don't.

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09-06-2011, 02:37 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
You really want to bring another subjective criteria to the rule book so to give increase power to referees and the league ?

What is a staged fight ? Two guys dropping them at the faceoffs ? Most fights, even from "non-fighters", happen this way. How about fights near the goalie crease, after a save, from enforcers ? Isn't what you call "flow of the game" even if most of them are "staged" or "planned" in order to intimidate the opponent...

Just remove the human element in this and get rid of fights all together. If you get a game suspension or more after a fight, you'll be sure that the players involved in a fight will have done it because of emotions, not because of their paychecks, the stupid crowd or the game score.

...'cause we all know that any fights involving, lets say Zdeno Chara, will be ruled as a "legal" fight no matter what...
I agree. Ban fighting or don't. Not another one of those "blind-sight hits" rule that will only lead to "drama" and confusion.

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09-06-2011, 02:42 PM
  #119
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I want to ask those who love fighting in hockey if they think any other sports might benefit from a similar policy, that is, a policy wherein two athletes on the playing field can simply drop their gloves and begin punching one another while the officials stand aside and look.

I remember watching hockey in Asia, with people unfamiliar with the game. When the fighting started, it was embarrassing how utterly stupid the sport appeared.

Sorry but I think many who love fighting in hockey are the same sort of people who watch NASCAR for the crashes.

So I propose a new sport: Go-karts lapping a rink, when karts crash the drivers dismount and punch each other out.

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09-06-2011, 02:49 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Humm, first, you don't absolutely need stats to come up with an answer... and second, you're the one making that claim about confidence and momentum, so YOU have the burden to prove your point... and the answer is still no, you can't prove that.
Let me guess. You also think that Jacques Martin is a great coach and is perfect for the Canadiens, right?

You are correct. There is no stat for momentum and confidence. Despite the lack of statistics, it exists in every game and the abundance or lack thereof is clearly evident. All you have to do is observe.

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09-06-2011, 03:01 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Count me among those who changed their mind about fighting in the last 1-2 years. I always supported it, thinking it was part of hockey. But the more I read about the real consequences of fighting that often (brain injuries, substance abuse, mental illness, etc.) as reported by former enforcers, the more I'm convinced it doesn't belong in the NHL anymore. More and more former enforcers are calling for a fighting ban, and those are the opinions I value the most. They know exactly what they're talking about. We don't.
If asked privately, almost all current enforcers would mostly say they hate fighting and it agaonizes them in the pit of their stomach.

Non of them would ever want to have fighting banned, however, because they know they'd be out of the NHL in minutes and with it no more million dollar a year salary for them or their family, or glamorous single lifestyle with NHL groupies, if that was done.

Name me the strictly enforcer players (not legit power forwards or tough, stay at home D-men) who could play a regular shift in a no fighting NHL? It's a very, very short list.

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09-06-2011, 03:27 PM
  #122
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re: Todd and all the people who are all a sudden so concerned...

It is alright to like or dislike something, but to have a knee jerk reaction to it when it is brought up in the news is just weak.

Nothing like a bandwagon. Climb aboard!!!!

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09-06-2011, 04:17 PM
  #123
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Fighting is only a problem for the enforcers and goons who does it excessively to keep a job in the NHL. I don't see any problem when Iginla, Lecavalier, Crosby, Datsyuk, Cammy, Richards etc.. fights. They don't do it often but every time they do, its awesome and everyone is on the feet cheering and it rarely results to an injury.

Like every other things in this world, abuse or excess is never good.

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09-06-2011, 04:20 PM
  #124
MTL-rules
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Let me guess. You also think that Jacques Martin is a great coach and is perfect for the Canadiens, right?

You are correct. There is no stat for momentum and confidence. Despite the lack of statistics, it exists in every game and the abundance or lack thereof is clearly evident. All you have to do is observe.
You might want to re-do your science 101 course if you think that watching games with a couple of beers will help you prove scientificaly a cause and effect phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
re: Todd and all the people who are all a sudden so concerned...

It is alright to like or dislike something, but to have a knee jerk reaction to it when it is brought up in the news is just weak.

Nothing like a bandwagon. Climb aboard!!!!
And what would you say if we started a debate about it in the middle of the summer with no reason what so ever... you'd probably tell us to shut up and talk about it when it would matter.

The fact is that most of us who are opposed to fighting have been for a while now and been out spoking about it. I won't change my mind next week or, if god forbids, the day the habs become a team full of goons.

The fact might be that you just don't like people who are opposed to your view point, no matter when...


Last edited by Habs 4 Life: 09-06-2011 at 04:36 PM.
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09-06-2011, 04:43 PM
  #125
Toasterman
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Fighting is only a problem for the enforcers and goons who does it excessively to keep a job in the NHL. I don't see any problem when Iginla, Lecavalier, Crosby, Datsyuk, Cammy, Richards etc.. fights. They don't do it often but every time they do, its awesome and everyone is on the feet cheering and it rarely results to an injury.

Like every other things in this world, abuse or excess is never good.
I agree with this. I can see a place for passionate, spur of the moment fighting. It's the enforcer, the guys who exist merely to fight a guy on another team who's been assigned that's team's role of enforcer that apparently causes the issues of depression, substance abuse, ect.

This isn't a boxer or fighter who fights every X amount of times a year based on a period of rest and training in between. These are guys who must fight often over an 82 game schedule and give and receive bare fist shots to people's heads in, mostly, staged fights.

Think about it: even if you're a .234 hitter in baseball you're still on the field for 9 innings a game every night making outs via your fielding ability, even if it isn't gold glove skill level. You ARE still a contributing team member just like all other 8 starters. Enforcers play mere minutes a game and take part in staged fights. For an enforcer, it has to eat away at them to do that and only that in a game that involves so much shooting, passing, blocking, checking, ect.

Heck, even the life long wife of famous Canadian boxer, the late Yvon Durrelle, who was as powerful a puncher as Canadian boxing has every seen, once said her husband would burst into tears the day after a fight. And that's a sport where it's all about fighting and hurting the other guy.

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