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Are we ruining Ryan White asking him to drop them ?

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Old
09-06-2011, 09:58 AM
  #51
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Kriss, let's be honest here: do you think that the players would come out and say it? I was discussing with Georges Laraque and he told me what players were telling him. And anyone who has played the game at a level where fighting is allowed could attest. I know I do.
It's not what they say, it's what they do.
Lucic was obviously intimidated by Laraque, otherwise he would have just fought him without a care. Even Thornton, I believe it was, said something of the sort that nobody really wants to fight with Laraque, the man is huge, so if you have to go against him you need to jump on him rather than let him get into his groove, which is what he did when he fought him.
Same thing can be said about our little guys going up next to Chara, or whoever else you might have in mind.
But it's all irrelevant.
It's intimidating to stand in front of Chara's slapshot, yet still, guys do it. What does this point to? Courage. Our guys have boatloads of it, and it far outweighs the intimidation part.

Intimidation only becomes a factor if it affects your game. Chara never prevented Plekanec from outskating him against the boards. Lucic never prevented PK from talking or hitting anybody, including him. None of the big bad Bruins prevented our smaller guys from going in the corners and battling hard. Even when they try to bully us around, they need to score 8 goals to win the game.
Can you seriously tell me that our boys have proven themselves to be intimidated to the point that it affected their game??? To the point where they just dropped their stick and raised a white flag???

We have a team that battles hard, against the bigger teams of the NHL, and they have no problem doing it.

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09-06-2011, 09:59 AM
  #52
habfaninvictoria
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There is no doubt that Ryan White is expected to fight. I don't think I'd call him a goon or enforcer though, we don't have any of those. I guess my biggest questions would be:

Would Ryan White have a job on this team if he there was no fighting in the NHL?
Would Ryan White have a job on this team if he weren't willing to fight?

The answer to the 1st question is yes. He's a good enough player to fill the 4th line role and be an energy guy who hits. He's probably better than most players he's matched against.

The answer to the 2nd question is probably no. At the moment he's not good enough to play on the top 3 lines. He gives us an advantage as a player on the 4th but every team needs a couple players willing to drop em.

He knows his role and plays it. He's a good team guy. Eventually I hope he can make it without having to fight but that's not today. He could climb the team depth charts easily though if he refinds that scoring touch and confidence. What a weapon that would be.

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09-06-2011, 10:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Tell me something... a player (or should I say a big player) takes out Price, Subban, Markov, Cammalleri, Gionta, Plekanec or another one of our good players... Who does the team turn to? Gorges? Darche? You know damn well that they rely on Moen and/or White. Is it fair? I don't think so.

So you may think that I'm proven wrong but you're dead wrong by thinking it. It's definitely all inter-related. How could it ruin him? By getting his face knocked in because he feels the need to take on guys out of his weight class!

Now you may disagree all you want, it's your opinion and I can respect that but don't expect me to buy it.
Moen often played a reactive role, fighting those who cheapshotted other Habs. And yet he never fought out of his weight class. It didn't ruin him not having an enforcer around, nor does it need to ruin White.

I could buy your argument more for players like Lapierre. And even Begin. Those guys seemed to enjoy having an enforcer around because they didn't really fight, and their style of play brought unwanted attention. White and Moen, on the other hand, seem to do just fine without an enforcer around. I remember Thornton was looking for White a few games last year, and they snarled at each other, but ultimately White was able to avoid the mismatch without any loss of ego. Players like Thornton are never effective enough to 'take out' a good, talented player, so there's no concern that White or Moen will need to fight him for retribution. It'll be non-fighters like Boychuk who have enough skating/timing to actually toss a nasty hit that'll require retribution from White/Moen. And they're perfect for handling that.

Frankly, an enforcer would not have gone after Boychuk. Moen or White would have, and then the enforcer would have fought Thornton in a meaningless fight thereafter to justify each other's roles.

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09-06-2011, 10:40 AM
  #54
MathMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Kriss, let's be honest here: do you think that the players would come out and say it? I was discussing with Georges Laraque and he told me what players were telling him. And anyone who has played the game at a level where fighting is allowed could attest. I know I do.
Let's be honest here: as long as we take our opinions on the value of fighting from people who actually practice it as a profession, we'll have a skewed view of its actual value. What's an ex-enforcer gonna say? "Yeah, I got paid to fight but it's pretty much just a sideshow?" It'd be refreshing but somehow I'm not holding my breath.

Seriously, anyone notice how many ex-enforcers there are in the media landscape compared to other types of players? Methinks this is no stranger to why the notion that it has hockey value persists.

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09-06-2011, 11:23 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Let's be honest here: as long as we take our opinions on the value of fighting from people who actually practice it as a profession, we'll have a skewed view of its actual value. What's an ex-enforcer gonna say? "Yeah, I got paid to fight but it's pretty much just a sideshow?" It'd be refreshing but somehow I'm not holding my breath.

Seriously, anyone notice how many ex-enforcers there are in the media landscape compared to other types of players? Methinks this is no stranger to why the notion that it has hockey value persists.
Yeah that's if we turn the other cheek in pretend that the 98% of nhl players who voted for fighting to stay were all fighters, unfortunately for you, that wasn't the case.

I'd much rather take my opinion from someone who has never played the game.

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09-06-2011, 12:08 PM
  #56
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Yeah that's if we turn the other cheek in pretend that the 98% of nhl players who voted for fighting to stay were all fighters, unfortunately for you, that wasn't the case.

I'd much rather take my opinion from someone who has never played the game.
How about making your own opinion without listening to anybody else's?
Players have already proven themselves idiotic and incapable of even protecting one another. The head shots issue is proof of that.
I don't care what Laraque says.

What I see is even the best player of the NHL gets his head hit, despite the "protection" around him. I'm sure players love to have a big guy there to put on a beating. Doesn't mean it's necessary. Rarely do I see a fight change the outcome of a game. Matter of fact, I can't even remember one instance when it did.

Intimidation is overblown here. Sure it happens, but not to the point of actually changing the outcome of a game. And our team has proven themselves to be plenty more courageous rather than intimidated.

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09-06-2011, 02:00 PM
  #57
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Only in habsland are people asking for something...and when its finally delivered on a golden plate , they sit back down and ask themselves pointless questions.

Ryan White is a phenomenal hard nosed bottom liner ... He has showed that he likes it rough ... and that he has some offensive flair. He will crave the opportunity to play on the top two lines every now and then, but he knows where he's at ... typical guy who's not top 6 offensive talent ... but will earn respect providing secondary scoring and jumping in the top 6 if need be.

people, Ryan White is the alpha male this team needs. The more you try to outplay him physically, the more he likes it, he is epic.

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09-06-2011, 02:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Only in habsland are people asking for something...and when its finally delivered on a golden plate , they sit back down and ask themselves pointless questions.

Ryan White is a phenomenal hard nosed bottom liner ... He has showed that he likes it rough ... and that he has some offensive flair. He will crave the opportunity to play on the top two lines every now and then, but he knows where he's at ... typical guy who's not top 6 offensive talent ... but will earn respect providing secondary scoring and jumping in the top 6 if need be.

people, Ryan White is the alpha male this team needs. The more you try to outplay him physically, the more he likes it, he is epic.
Epic flow too!

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09-06-2011, 02:17 PM
  #59
Erik Estrada
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We need more players like him that are willing to sacrifice their cognition and future mental well-being for the team.

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09-06-2011, 03:38 PM
  #60
Joe Cole
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I like White.

That said, why do you care what other people label him?

If he has the skills to score, he will score. If he doesn't have that skill at this level, then he will do what he needs to earn a salary.

If he does not like that, he can always pick up a shovel and work in construction, or a calculator and sell cars. That is his decision.

It is popular small talk, "what we would do for a million dollars", trading in a few years of our lives to secure finacial security for our loved ones etc.... why do you think what White has to do to earn a spot on this team is any different?

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09-06-2011, 03:59 PM
  #61
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Darcy Tucker is a good example. He was a star in junior, put up tons of points, was smaller than White is now, but played that gritty energy fueled type of game, and would drop them when needed. That's all White is being asked to do. White has even less skill and scoring prowess too.

White isn't being asked to fight the enforcers of the league, although if he wants to, then so be it.

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09-06-2011, 04:55 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Mynameismark View Post
Darcy Tucker is a good example. He was a star in junior, put up tons of points, was smaller than White is now, but played that gritty energy fueled type of game, and would drop them when needed. That's all White is being asked to do. White has even less skill and scoring prowess too.

White isn't being asked to fight the enforcers of the league, although if he wants to, then so be it.
I don't see his place as fighting enforcers. He's an occasional glove dropper. It just seems to naturally be part of his game. I don't think he goes looking for it though, and wouldn't want to see him taking on enforcers 20 pds or more bigger than him. Makes no sense.

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09-06-2011, 08:10 PM
  #63
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Ryan White loves his role on the team...the guy is beaming after a fight, or when the team scores...he will be appreciated by his team mates this year! If he puts a little beef on, he could be as good as Chris Neil...
I don't know if his potential can reach Chris Neil status, but that's exactly the kind of player I think this team has needed for at least a decade.

He shows the attitude to fill such a role and as many posters have said previously in this thread, he actually enjoys a good scrap and takes pride in standing up for his teammates, if anything I hope some of this attitude rubs off on the rest of the team.

Is it October yet?

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09-07-2011, 12:36 AM
  #64
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Honestly, did you read the thread?
Not all of it.... probably less than half, to be honest. Was in a bad mood and probably over reacted.

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09-07-2011, 08:23 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How about making your own opinion without listening to anybody else's?
Players have already proven themselves idiotic and incapable of even protecting one another. The head shots issue is proof of that.
I don't care what Laraque says.

What I see is even the best player of the NHL gets his head hit, despite the "protection" around him. I'm sure players love to have a big guy there to put on a beating. Doesn't mean it's necessary. Rarely do I see a fight change the outcome of a game. Matter of fact, I can't even remember one instance when it did.

Intimidation is overblown here. Sure it happens, but not to the point of actually changing the outcome of a game. And our team has proven themselves to be plenty more courageous rather than intimidated.
After reading many of your posts on this subject, I've concluded I don't agree with you at all. My opinion is mine, it just so happens that it supported by nearly everyone involved. Take that for what it's worth.

Knee jerk reactions like yours about banning fighting because of 3 unfortunate, but separate incidences are opinions I don't take seriously. You were on the anti fighting side of the fence before this, now you're using these isolated deaths to support your preconceived notion that fighting doesn't belong.

Crosby's concussion wasn't caused by a fight, it was caused by a hit to the head. Fighting can't prevent something after it's happened, I'm sure you know this, but what we don't know is how many incidence are prevented from it, you can speculate that it's zero and I will disagree and around and round we go.

Look at the matchup Pens vs Bruins after the Matt Cooke hit, Thornton goes after Cooke right away, Cooke knows it's coming and squares off, the two get in a fight and then it's behind them, had this not happened, who knows who would of dealt with that retaliation, or what form of retaliation was coming, but it was coming. I would argue that by Cooke accepting, although Thornton is a much bigger man, he did his teammates a favor, I'd bet the coaching staff even encouraged it, had it not happened, cooke himself or a teammate would have been at risk for something much worse, as it was, they dropped the gloves and moved on. No harm, no foul and likely prevented the game from getting completely out of hand.

You can same this is foolish and it encourages goonery or whatever, but to deny real emotions and retaliation exists whether through fists or stick swinging, is silly, it does exist and squaring off is the least dangerous form. I say kudos to both, now lets play the damn game.

Retaliation happens in all sports or just about anything with emotions involved, it's silly to pretend they should take the higher road every time, human nature is real, in hockey it just so happens that the safest way to respond is two willing combatants squaring off, in baseball, the pitcher hits the next batter and so on, hockey isn't alone here, but hockey is the fastest moving sport of all major sports with guys carrying potential weapons on skates, fighting is the least of our concerns, seriously.

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09-07-2011, 08:28 AM
  #66
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Ruining from what? Becoming a Top 6 offensive power? Please.

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09-07-2011, 09:56 AM
  #67
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
After reading many of your posts on this subject, I've concluded I don't agree with you at all. My opinion is mine, it just so happens that it supported by nearly everyone involved. Take that for what it's worth.

Knee jerk reactions like yours about banning fighting because of 3 unfortunate, but separate incidences are opinions I don't take seriously. You were on the anti fighting side of the fence before this, now you're using these isolated deaths to support your preconceived notion that fighting doesn't belong.

Crosby's concussion wasn't caused by a fight, it was caused by a hit to the head. Fighting can't prevent something after it's happened, I'm sure you know this, but what we don't know is how many incidence are prevented from it, you can speculate that it's zero and I will disagree and around and round we go.

Look at the matchup Pens vs Bruins after the Matt Cooke hit, Thornton goes after Cooke right away, Cooke knows it's coming and squares off, the two get in a fight and then it's behind them, had this not happened, who knows who would of dealt with that retaliation, or what form of retaliation was coming, but it was coming. I would argue that by Cooke accepting, although Thornton is a much bigger man, he did his teammates a favor, I'd bet the coaching staff even encouraged it, had it not happened, cooke himself or a teammate would have been at risk for something much worse, as it was, they dropped the gloves and moved on. No harm, no foul and likely prevented the game from getting completely out of hand.

You can same this is foolish and it encourages goonery or whatever, but to deny real emotions and retaliation exists whether through fists or stick swinging, is silly, it does exist and squaring off is the least dangerous form. I say kudos to both, now lets play the damn game.

Retaliation happens in all sports or just about anything with emotions involved, it's silly to pretend they should take the higher road every time, human nature is real, in hockey it just so happens that the safest way to respond is two willing combatants squaring off, in baseball, the pitcher hits the next batter and so on, hockey isn't alone here, but hockey is the fastest moving sport of all major sports with guys carrying potential weapons on skates, fighting is the least of our concerns, seriously.
I have a hard time understanding how you say I'm having a knee jerk reaction because of these deaths, but then say I always was on the anti-fight clan. Which is it? Can't be both.

Truth is, I'm all for banning fighting. Not because of these deaths but more so because it, in no way, affects the game. It might have a tiny influence in some instances but 99% of the time it's completely useless.
Funny that you bring up Thornton going after Cooke. Having a "protector" supposedly prevents these nasty hits, but it wasn't the case here. It didn't prevent anything. And you'd think that Thornton going right at him after would have made Cooke think about things in the future, but no, it didn't.
These deaths may or may not be linked to that role of players, but that's not why I'm for banning it. If it had an impact on the game, then I would be for it. It doesn't anymore.

Like I said, I don't follow baseball, but can't a pitcher get suspended and thrown out for purposely throwing the ball at a player?

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09-07-2011, 10:27 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I have a hard time understanding how you say I'm having a knee jerk reaction because of these deaths, but then say I always was on the anti-fight clan. Which is it? Can't be both.

Truth is, I'm all for banning fighting. Not because of these deaths but more so because it, in no way, affects the game. It might have a tiny influence in some instances but 99% of the time it's completely useless.
Funny that you bring up Thornton going after Cooke. Having a "protector" supposedly prevents these nasty hits, but it wasn't the case here. It didn't prevent anything. And you'd think that Thornton going right at him after would have made Cooke think about things in the future, but no, it didn't.
These deaths may or may not be linked to that role of players, but that's not why I'm for banning it. If it had an impact on the game, then I would be for it. It doesn't anymore.

Like I said, I don't follow baseball, but can't a pitcher get suspended and thrown out for purposely throwing the ball at a player?
Truth is, as soon as you heard about Belak you came here and posted I'm now 100% convinced that banning fighting is a must. If that's not a knee jerk, please explain what is.

You also used this as proof of something you were leaning towards already, so my point stands about you reacting with a knee jerk and being on the anti crowd fence at the same time. You used this tragedy to promote your anti fighting agenda, much the same way as many others have and it's a shame really, because fighting likely had nothing to do with either of them.

As far as the fight between Thornton and Cooke you completely ignored the fact that they they dropped the gloves and put it to rest, which likely benefited everyone involved, prevented injuries ect. You ignored my point and turned to something else as I fully expected you to do. Like I said, Thornton smacking Cooke around did prevent that game from getting out of hand, you can deny that reality if you wish.

Suspensions haven't stopped Matt Cooke either, but if he answered to guys like Thornton every time, his act would dry up, no question about it.

There are far greater concerns, if safety truly is your concern than abolishing fighting. Fighting isn't even on the radar, but I bet this has less to do with player safety and more the do with using this to somehow validate your opinion even if they are totally unrelated.

Fighting is staying, people with much greater influence and experience are making the decisions and I'm thankful for that.

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09-07-2011, 11:46 AM
  #69
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Truth is, as soon as you heard about Belak you came here and posted I'm now 100% convinced that banning fighting is a must. If that's not a knee jerk, please explain what is.

You also used this as proof of something you were leaning towards already, so my point stands about you reacting with a knee jerk and being on the anti crowd fence at the same time. You used this tragedy to promote your anti fighting agenda, much the same way as many others have and it's a shame really, because fighting likely had nothing to do with either of them.

As far as the fight between Thornton and Cooke you completely ignored the fact that they they dropped the gloves and put it to rest, which likely benefited everyone involved, prevented injuries ect. You ignored my point and turned to something else as I fully expected you to do. Like I said, Thornton smacking Cooke around did prevent that game from getting out of hand, you can deny that reality if you wish.

Suspensions haven't stopped Matt Cooke either, but if he answered to guys like Thornton every time, his act would dry up, no question about it.

There are far greater concerns, if safety truly is your concern than abolishing fighting. Fighting isn't even on the radar, but I bet this has less to do with player safety and more the do with using this to somehow validate your opinion even if they are totally unrelated.

Fighting is staying, people with much greater influence and experience are making the decisions and I'm thankful for that.
I really wonder why you always approach these debates as if I say something that you disagree with, then I'm wrong and you are right, and then say ridiculous things like me having an agenda or wtv. You should be a politician.

The point I'm making about fighting is that it has no affect on the game. You used the Thornton-Cooke choose to believe it prevented this game from getting out of hands. You have nothing to prove this theory with, and that's fine, it's your opinion, but I don't believe that. Not every game that involves cheap hits end up getting out of hands and sometimes games degenerate without any cheap hit. This happens despite teams having enforcers or not.
From testimonies of players, it seems the role of enforcers is a very difficult one mentally, more so than others. Considering I already find the role as 99% useless, I have no issues with it disappearing.
If you combine that with harsher disciplinary measures then you won't have to worry about the cheap shots, and you also won't have to worry about the fighting.

As for the people in place, they employed the father of a player to be the head of the disciplinary committee, that should tell you about who's running this league.

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