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Flames in the market for a #1 centre UPDATE: It's Lecavalier!

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09-08-2011, 10:26 AM
  #651
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
As a Flames fan, I would say that the thing that stops Bartschi from being blue chip is his size. No matter how good he is at the WHL, if his play doesn't translate due to size he is done.

NN is a much larger player and does not bring up the same question marks.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bartschi was an awesome choice. However, he is high risk high reward due to his size. Nigel Dawes was also able to put up 92 points in the WHL, but similar limitations on size prevented him from making it to the NHL. I see much more offensive flare in Bartschi than Dawes despite similar numbers in the WHL, however.
I would agree. NN is much more physical, but he kept citing defensive play which is bogus. Baertschi is smallish, but not Dawes small. Valid point though.

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09-08-2011, 10:34 AM
  #652
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Why do I need to show you any posts? Look in any Flames thread where Backlund is discussed. The valuation that you put on him is that of a future top line player (you as in a fanbase, not you individually).
I think Backlund ends up as a Langkow type player. Anywhere from 40 points in a bad year to 70 in a good year. Sound defensively, not a physical player. He'll be a good second line center or a poor second line center. I guess it depends on how you determine what a front line player is. Ie. Is Bourque a legit first line player? He was 25th in points and 12th in goals. He's also physical. I could understand people saying he's not a first line player like Ovechkin or Sedin, but he is a top 30 LW without question. I think Backlund will be a top 30 center one day, but never like B. Richards or Thornton are.

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09-08-2011, 10:37 AM
  #653
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
Feaster is a tool. Especially for bashing Tim Erixon not too long ago saying he "wont make the big club and that Tort's and Erixon will have problems together"He is a fat b@stard who is butt-hurt.

I never liked the guy. Acts like a D@uchebag all the time.
Source? I listen to everything and have never heard that comment. Source it, or don't say it.

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09-08-2011, 10:38 AM
  #654
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
Not true at all. Most Flames fans see Backlund as a 60 point 2nd line guy who is a two way forward. Nobody thinks he will be a #1 centre.
If he is scoring 60 points, he is probably on your first line. People on HF always seem to say "so and so prospect will be a 60-70 2nd line player". How many second line centers even scored above 60 points last year? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Kesler and Riberio.

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09-08-2011, 10:58 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
I love how "fans" can look at a young player and say for certain what type of number they will put up and what type of numbers they couldnt put up.

Remember Cheechoo? No one would have thought he would score 50 goals. But he did. He sizzled since than to a halt, but still... players out there can AND WILL deceive you and to say a player cant hit 80 but say 70 is possible is being a little bit silly. 10 points can be achieved on any combination of ways. One of his linemates gets hot and scores 10 more goals for the year and you got the assist on it.. Bam, there is your 10 extra points.
FYI for future reference if you’ve resorted to validating your point citing Cheechoo your argument immediately becomes invalid

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09-08-2011, 11:16 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
I would agree. NN is much more physical, but he kept citing defensive play which is bogus. Baertschi is smallish, but not Dawes small. Valid point though.
The comparison between Bartschi and Dawes was extreme. But I think size will still remain a factor for Bartschi. It's basically what stopped him from being picked much higher.

I think he is a very good prospect but wouldn't call him blue chip until he can prove his game translates to the pro-level. The issue of translation is a bigger issue for smaller players.

Edit: Back on topic, no way I give up a prospect like Bartschi for the privilege of taking on one of the worst contracts in NHL history. The ceiling is just too high. Backlund might be a consideration, but even then I'd want a serious camp dump giong the other way.


Last edited by blankall: 09-08-2011 at 11:29 AM.
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09-08-2011, 12:47 PM
  #657
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
If he is scoring 60 points, he is probably on your first line. People on HF always seem to say "so and so prospect will be a 60-70 2nd line player". How many second line centers even scored above 60 points last year? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Kesler and Riberio.
I agree. There were 32 centers in the league last year who had 54 points. I think the discussion of #1 centers differs from star centers. Ie. In Calgary Langkow had 33 goals and 77 points in 06-07. He wasn't a "star" center, but he was a #1. In Backlund's case I believe he will be a #1 center in his prime like Langkow was. He won't ever be a "star" center like Thornton or Datsyuk.

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09-08-2011, 01:11 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Source? I listen to everything and have never heard that comment. Source it, or don't say it.
Totally ******** lol don't know what the point is in making **** up.

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09-08-2011, 01:16 PM
  #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
I agree. There were 32 centers in the league last year who had 54 points. I think the discussion of #1 centers differs from star centers. Ie. In Calgary Langkow had 33 goals and 77 points in 06-07. He wasn't a "star" center, but he was a #1. In Backlund's case I believe he will be a #1 center in his prime like Langkow was. He won't ever be a "star" center like Thornton or Datsyuk.
scoring inflation was high during the peak years of 05-07. It's not really the true bar on determining statistics. You think Spezza-Heatley-Alfredsson unit would still all be 100 + point players today?

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09-08-2011, 01:19 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
I love how "fans" can look at a young player and say for certain what type of number they will put up and what type of numbers they couldnt put up.

Remember Cheechoo? No one would have thought he would score 50 goals. But he did. He sizzled since than to a halt, but still... players out there can AND WILL deceive you and to say a player cant hit 80 but say 70 is possible is being a little bit silly. 10 points can be achieved on any combination of ways. One of his linemates gets hot and scores 10 more goals for the year and you got the assist on it.. Bam, there is your 10 extra points.

Stop acting like everyone knows how a player will pan out. You may want to "guess" what a player can project to be, but you as a fan (no matter how much stat watching you do) can not sit back and argue with certainty on a players future output.

Its a little egocentric to think you know what a player can and cant do in the NHL expecially when that player is a very young player in the AHL or NHL.

I understand arguing prospects and who you think it better and worse, but to sit here and say "I know player X will only get 50-60 points and never hit 70-80 points" is quite silly
Chechoo had 28 goals before the lockout, he was an emerging goal scorer/point producer. Maybe not the 93 points/ 50 plus goal but it wasn't too hard him becoming a 30 goal-60-70 point producer. Obviously injuries derailed him but it's not like Thorton was giving him 50 empty netters. He had that ability.

When you look at the stats sheet, do you see prospects/players putting up the numbers that superstar players struggle to consistenly put up. The answer is most people overrate the likes of potential/youth.

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09-08-2011, 01:21 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
Considering Feaster resigned from TB because ownership wanted him to sign Vinny to that ridiculous contract I am pretty sure he never started. This rumour is so dumb it isn't even funny. Feaster wants nothing to do with that contract, I guarantee it. Vinny loves TB and has a NMC. How in the hell does this rumour even still have legs?
What team is going to trade its star #1 centers for players on Calgary's roster and their bare system? The only way to acquire a #1 center of some kind is to acquire one with some baggage or terrible cap number.

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09-08-2011, 01:31 PM
  #662
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I'd like to be really diplomatic about this, but can't, as there's no way to mouse-around it. I don't mean to be mean spirited, however this is really about the most useless thread I've seen in my time on the boards.

The only way that Lecavalier could ever possibly be traded to Calgary would be if Iggy was going to Tampa. And that's not going to happen. So the Flames just don't have enough assets to give to Tampa to make it worthwhile for them to trade Lecavalier.

I vote that a moderator close this thread, as it can't go anywhere.

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09-08-2011, 01:34 PM
  #663
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I'm amazed this thread is already up to PAGE 27.



... Well done? I don't even know what to say to that.

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09-08-2011, 01:41 PM
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
Considering Feaster resigned from TB because ownership wanted him to sign Vinny to that ridiculous contract I am pretty sure he never started. This rumour is so dumb it isn't even funny. Feaster wants nothing to do with that contract, I guarantee it. Vinny loves TB and has a NMC. How in the hell does this rumour even still have legs?
Not that this rumor has any chance of occurring, but Feaster did not resign from Tampa in as much as he was urged to leave the building. He was trying to save his job with the new ownership group, even throwing Tortorella under the bus there at the end. So just to clarify Feaster certainly didn't leave Tampa due to Lecavalier's contract (he even re-interviewed for the GM position once Vinik took over as owner). However, yes, Vinny does love Tampa, and he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

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Old
09-08-2011, 01:42 PM
  #665
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by Beezle View Post
scoring inflation was high during the peak years of 05-07. It's not really the true bar on determining statistics. You think Spezza-Heatley-Alfredsson unit would still all be 100 + point players today?
He was still 15th in center scoring regardless of the scoring rate during thos years. The point was that some guys are #1's at points of their careers without being star players. Langkow is an example of that.

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