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Old
09-09-2011, 11:55 AM
  #26
Mike8
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
He reminds me of Recchi, the kid has very little quit in him. I know people hate him because he stirs it up on the ice, but he has exceptional vision, and once he gets on a weight program, that won't be a problem either. (Although I don't find he gets dominated physically at this point)

I'm not usually very positive on the small players , but he's performing very well as a small guy in a very physical WHL. The Giants have exceptional leaders and alumni, he's in the perfect spot to make the transition in my mind.
Good stuff. How about his skating? He doesn't need to be all that fast, but quickness and general shiftiness will be important.

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Old
09-09-2011, 12:02 PM
  #27
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Good stuff. How about his skating? He doesn't need to be all that fast, but quickness and general shiftiness will be important.
Could have sworn people were saying it's definitely among his assets.

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Old
09-09-2011, 12:26 PM
  #28
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Can't see I agree with their rankings, but the writer probably has the chance to watch these guys much more than me.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the grade they give these guys either, just remember Subban.

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Old
09-09-2011, 03:52 PM
  #29
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Brendan Gallagher at 13 is odd, looks like another bias against his size. Kid can play the game like few of our prospects can.
I can assure you I have no bias against Gallagher due to his size. In fact, I've made a point of mentioning before that I think Gallagher uses his smaller size to his advantage. For what it's worth, to me, Gallagher is one of the most intriguing prospects in the Montreal system.

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09-09-2011, 04:34 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Good stuff. How about his skating? He doesn't need to be all that fast, but quickness and general shiftiness will be important.
He's a good skater.

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Old
09-09-2011, 04:55 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ian Bross View Post
I can assure you I have no bias against Gallagher due to his size. In fact, I've made a point of mentioning before that I think Gallagher uses his smaller size to his advantage. For what it's worth, to me, Gallagher is one of the most intriguing prospects in the Montreal system.
I personally didn't see it that way. I just think optimistic habs fans like myself have a different definition of prospect than you do in a sense.

Weber, Desharnais etc I see them as for sure NHLers. You see them as having played less than a certain # of games and partially unproven. I understand that but other people see them bump a guy like Gallagher down to #13 and are kind of shocked, because in our prospect lists on the forum he isn't that low as a result of certain players now being included in that list.

Found the thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=976489

As you can see Gallagher is #8 on our list due to certain players being omitted. (And voted among the top underrated in the pole)


Last edited by neofury*: 09-09-2011 at 05:00 PM.
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Old
09-09-2011, 09:49 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Ian Bross View Post
I can assure you I have no bias against Gallagher due to his size. In fact, I've made a point of mentioning before that I think Gallagher uses his smaller size to his advantage. For what it's worth, to me, Gallagher is one of the most intriguing prospects in the Montreal system.
I'm really not knocking you, because your guess is as good as mine, and the end result is up in the air. He is one of the few small prospects I enjoy watching play.

Just because I had him higher in my mind, doesn't mean you're rankings aren't sensible, I was just curious if the size factor had any influence on your list.

I understand the stress of putting up a list, or an article, and having it met with disagreements... I know it too well

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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Could have sworn people were saying it's definitely among his assets.
Yup.

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Originally Posted by Less Habitats View Post

I wouldn't put too much stock into the grade they give these guys either, just remember Subban.
Odd, I remember Subban getting a lot of respect on the board, and by the writers. Nobody wants to hand out a 9-10 unless its a very special player, and P.K hadn't demonstrated a super high ranking at that point in his career.

Also, P.K has a lot to do in his career before labeling him a superstar, lets see how the next two seasons pan out for him.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 09-09-2011 at 09:54 PM.
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Old
09-10-2011, 10:08 AM
  #33
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I'm not trying to discredit Ian, I'm just saying the grade part of their system is the most flawed.

I can't remember Subbans exact grade but I think he was labeled a 'D' or something. It's impossible to know if these prospects will meet expectations, and things can change so frequently; see Price from last year to this year, or Subbans entire career path.

I'd say we shouldn't put an emphasis on where they're ranked, or what grade they're given and just read the summary Ian has provided for each of them.

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Old
09-10-2011, 10:18 AM
  #34
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I wouldn't put too much stock into the grade they give these guys either, just remember Subban.

I'm not trying to discredit Ian, I'm just saying the grade part of their system is the most flawed.

I can't remember Subbans exact grade but I think he was labeled a 'D' or something.
Which is exactly what Subban was. He was a risky pick with high reward. A D was the perfect letter for him when drafted.

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Old
09-10-2011, 12:42 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Ian Bross View Post
This is correct. I had to double check this myself. Because he was signed at age 25, he does not fit our prospect criteria.



Those ratings will be up on the site soon. A handful of 2011 picks missed the cut by a very slim margin.



At the rate he is going he is on his way up the list, so my gut tells me. But I'm still becoming familiar with him. I want to see more of him first. I've followed him more closely since he was acquired. I'd be remiss if I gave him a grade I didn't feel was justified by what I had seen of him myself, rather than what others have seen. And frankly, I need to see more.



Thank you.
You've added ratings for the 2011 draft class, will you give a rating to Delmas and St-Denis soon?

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Old
09-10-2011, 02:05 PM
  #36
David Thicke
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I have seen a fair bit of Brendan Gallagher's game with the Giants when I was scouting his linemate, Spencer Bennett, a former prospect of the Calgary Flames. Ian's rating of Gallagher is pretty spot on for this present ranking of the Habs prospects.

Gallagher is a little ball of hate who can make his linemates much better than they really are. He made Bennett have his best junior season of his career but couldn't get him a pro contract with the Flames. Gallagher will definitely have to continue on the weight program his father who is the strength and fitness coach for the Giants, has him working on all year round. His size can only be a factor because he does lack that explosive skating speed that is a must for a small player. He needs to get up to Kristo and Leblanc or faster than them because he is smaller. He has the work ethic, determination, mean streak and good overall offensive skills to play in the NHL in the future but he must continue to improve on every area of his game every season. If his skating continues to improve at his present rate then he will be a better NHL player than both Kristo and Leblanc. Look at him as a higher skill level but a little slower version of Brad Marchand.

Thanks for a good article, Ian

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Old
09-10-2011, 02:25 PM
  #37
Hank Scorpio
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Originally Posted by Less Habitats View Post
I'm not trying to discredit Ian, I'm just saying the grade part of their system is the most flawed.

I can't remember Subbans exact grade but I think he was labeled a 'D' or something. It's impossible to know if these prospects will meet expectations, and things can change so frequently; see Price from last year to this year, or Subbans entire career path.

I'd say we shouldn't put an emphasis on where they're ranked, or what grade they're given and just read the summary Ian has provided for each of them.
Assigning grades to evaluations, as a practice, is flawed as there's very little detail or reasoning that can be established from 84%, B-, or, in this instance, 7.0 C (the same goes for Gold Stars and Smiley Face/Frowny Face stickers).

It's purpose is to establish where the person(s) being evaluated stands in comparison to expectations or, in this case, to other hockey players. It represents the here and now, nothing else. The only reason it's really still practiced is because it gives the person being evaluated some certainty which, sometimes, is lost if you just get the reasoning.

You got the right idea though, read the summaries (past and present), watch some video, or organize a parent/teacher interview. It should give you a better understanding of where the player is developmentally and what they'd have to do to develop into the player we/they want (them) to be.

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Old
09-10-2011, 02:29 PM
  #38
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What exactly places Nattinen, Schultz and Mitera higher than Bournival?

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Old
09-10-2011, 03:48 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Odd, I remember Subban getting a lot of respect on the board, and by the writers. Nobody wants to hand out a 9-10 unless its a very special player, and P.K hadn't demonstrated a super high ranking at that point in his career.

Also, P.K has a lot to do in his career before labeling him a superstar, lets see how the next two seasons pan out for him.
Nope.

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Old
09-10-2011, 03:58 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I personally didn't see it that way. I just think optimistic habs fans like myself have a different definition of prospect than you do in a sense.

Weber, Desharnais etc I see them as for sure NHLers. You see them as having played less than a certain # of games and partially unproven. I understand that but other people see them bump a guy like Gallagher down to #13 and are kind of shocked, because in our prospect lists on the forum he isn't that low as a result of certain players now being included in that list.

Found the thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=976489

As you can see Gallagher is #8 on our list due to certain players being omitted. (And voted among the top underrated in the pole)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I'm really not knocking you, because your guess is as good as mine, and the end result is up in the air. He is one of the few small prospects I enjoy watching play.

Just because I had him higher in my mind, doesn't mean you're rankings aren't sensible, I was just curious if the size factor had any influence on your list.
I understand completely where both of you are coming from.

If I can clear up any concern like that, I will. That's all.

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Old
09-10-2011, 04:01 PM
  #41
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Nope.
From what I gathered when we picked him from different reports, PK wasn't respected at all by the scouting community. Allegations from NO D AT ALL to uncontrollable to piss poor positioning. You get the drill.

Thing is, he wasn't good in the D aspect, he did make horrendous choices when to pinch among other real complaints about the guy.

But it doesn't take account for one factor; the guy has the biggest will to learn i've seen. The guy was front row center in a stickhandling practice in the rookie camp just taking it all in while the other prospects were mildly interested. That's when I knew the guy was no joke. He's as committed as there is. Combine that with his insane talent and athleticism and we got ourselves a gem.

What's my point? We are scouting 16-17 years old and try to assess their future. So subjective it's insane. As if people don't change from that point on. Thank you Trevor for interviewing him and his family at his home.

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Old
09-10-2011, 04:08 PM
  #42
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You've added ratings for the 2011 draft class, will you give a rating to Delmas and St-Denis soon?
St-Denis no longer fits our prospect criteria due to his age.

As for Delmas, I'll look into it. His profile needs to be updated, moved.

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Old
09-10-2011, 05:05 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Bross View Post
St-Denis no longer fits our prospect criteria due to his age.

As for Delmas, I'll look into it. His profile needs to be updated, moved.
With Delmas, his run with Wichita just didn't work because the organization wasn't built for a young goaltender like Delmas to stride. Once he went to Wheeling, things took off for him.

I have him penciled in as one of the goaltenders on the Hamilton roster, this up-coming season. If he does make it, we'll all have a good look at his game.

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Old
09-10-2011, 05:54 PM
  #44
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Michael Bournival with 4 goals and 1 assist today

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Old
09-11-2011, 09:17 AM
  #45
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Bournival at #17 is an absolute joke.
If you mean he should be higher, I agree.

Edit: And that's not even considering that 4 goals game or any other recent performances.

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Old
09-11-2011, 09:22 AM
  #46
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If you mean he should be higher, I agree.

Edit: And that's not even considering that 4 goals game or any other recent performances.
Who do you think he should be ahead of and why?

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Old
09-11-2011, 09:47 AM
  #47
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8.0C (or 7.5B) was where I thought Beaulieu was going to be.

The list is not how I would have arranged it, but regardless it's a decent list. A lot of it will come down to the person or team doing the list, not everyone has the same preferences with prospects and some see them in other lights.

I am extremely high on Beaulieu though, this kid is going to be playing on the big club much sooner then some people think.

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Old
09-11-2011, 10:07 AM
  #48
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To the people saying the grading system is flawed I obviously agree but in reality any grading system would be pretty flawed. Who knows where these guys will end up. If they had Subban as a 7.0D one could say that's flawed but at the same time who could have known his extreme learning curve and determination? Sure scouts are looking for character but ultimately HF can only guess which lower tier prospects will boom or bust. While the rating system is flawed I can't see very many changes or different systems that would be better or be perfect. Not saying it's impossible I just don't think the system is bad. It works for what it does. Really no rating system will be perfect when dealing with prospects.

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Old
09-11-2011, 10:08 AM
  #49
macavoy
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I am extremely high on Beaulieu though, this kid is going to be playing on the big club much sooner then some people think.
I'm high on him too but I don't want to see him here any faster than PK was. I'd like to see him have a full year in Hamilton so that he can adjust slowly and not be given too much too soon.

Its as much about attitude for me, we've given too much too soon to our kids who had the talent and it only resulted in attitude problems. I love what I see from Beaulieu attitude wise and think he's got a great foundation, I just want to keep it that way.

I won't even be upset if he has to spend 2 seasons in Hamilton but I think having a second year on a top team like the Sea Dogs with a lot of expectations is going to help his development. That pressure will be good for him.

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Old
09-11-2011, 10:26 AM
  #50
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I'm high on him too but I don't want to see him here any faster than PK was. I'd like to see him have a full year in Hamilton so that he can adjust slowly and not be given too much too soon.

Its as much about attitude for me, we've given too much too soon to our kids who had the talent and it only resulted in attitude problems. I love what I see from Beaulieu attitude wise and think he's got a great foundation, I just want to keep it that way.

I won't even be upset if he has to spend 2 seasons in Hamilton but I think having a second year on a top team like the Sea Dogs with a lot of expectations is going to help his development. That pressure will be good for him.
Fair assessment, I am thinking 1 year of Junior followed by 1 in the A and then the transition.. BUT, you never know. With Spacek and Gill likely gone by next season, we'll be looking to fill some spots. If Beaulieu has a great year in the Q followed by a good camp, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the cut. Not saying that's how it will go down, the Habs love to fill roster spots with veterans and make rookies battle their way in (which is something I agree with for the most part). Another thing to look at is Andrei Markov, if for some reason he is unable to continue at a high level or gets his career taken down by another injury, they'll be even more tempted to try and replace his loss from within the ranks with Beaulieu (again, providing he has a big year).

I'm fine with taking our time with him, I just get a feeling he's going to have a great year this season and I am pretty concerned about our defense going forward. We have two open spots going into 2012-2013, with question marks on Markov. That's why I am suggesting the possibility.

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