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Old
09-11-2011, 02:54 PM
  #51
Ironlife
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I find all this talk about losing intriguing. I for one have been involved in sports my entire life, and my outlook on it is if your not first you lose. So in other words if you don't win the cup you lose... Some may find that a grim outlook, but in all honesty does the regular fan actually remember who came in 2nd in say 1964 or in 1973 or whatever if it wasn't the team that they cheer for? **** I don't even know who won the cup those years. And in all honesty I couldn't care less.

Now I am not saying we should "fail for nail" or whatever and losing lots of games in a season sucks, but the Oilers last year were somewhat entertaining, and they will be just as entertaining next year if not more.

But anyways getting back to what i was going to say is I won't be content till we have the cup in our hands, and anything worse then that will be considered a loss in my books. But I will still be there cheering and hoping that we do win, even if we do suck it up this season.

Let it play out, there is nothing any of us can do about it, watch and enjoy. And hopefully we can do well enough so we lose for very much longer.

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Old
09-11-2011, 02:57 PM
  #52
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nice to see some of us have not fallen in love with losing and getting high picks

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Old
09-11-2011, 03:18 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Sigh . I already did this dance with iatl and I know you saw those exchanges . But OK here we go again ....

I am not an NHL GM . I don't have all day to spend perusing the waiver wires and the rosters of the European/college leagues and trying to engineer trades to help the team . That's Tamby's job .

I think its a weak comeback on your part to throw the onus on me to build a playoff team . Tamby gets paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that , why should I waste my time doing it for free ? So you can pick apart my suggestions ?

The real problem is not the water that's already under the bridge , its the upcoming season and how Tamby is still trying to sell us on a motley crew of second and third chancers , over the hill veterans and a bunch of lotto pick rookies . In this very thread a poster has shown how paper thin our defense is again yet Tamby says he's not going to sign another veteran guy because he's "comfortable" with one of Petry , Chorney or Teubert stepping up .

So no Fourier , its not up to me to show you how to make a playoff team . Its up to Tamby to show the loyal fans in Edmonton that he's up to the job he was hired to do instead of blowing a bunch of smoke up our butts with lame documentaries that showcase his lotto picks and sending out the captain to explain to us how we "finished first" .
Actually I did not see you do this dance with IATL. I did ask a similar question previously and it went unanswered. My intention is not to be confrontational, it is an honest question. If you feel that the support for the approach Oilers took was so wrong, then I think it is fair to ask at least how likely it might have been to do something different that would have resulted in a significantly better outcome. No further need for specific names.

Personally I think that the chances were very slim that any action they would have taken at the end of 2009-2010 would have resulted in them being a non-lottery team last year. And some of the possible moves may easily have ended up with a repeat of the same debacle a few years down the road. You obviously disagree.

You know I am no schill for the Oilers management. They have made tons of mistakes. But the problem is that they already had a motley crew that was at the cap with many players on the downside of their careers, often with inflated contracts. This is what got us to where we were at the end of 2009. For that you can be as critical of management as you wish, I won't argue the point.

It is easy to say that Tambo should have been beating the bush for useful vets to correct this situation. I agree, he should be doing this. The problem is that there are not very many of those floating around. The FA list these days consist of pretty much the kind of chum you are so critical of with perhaps 10-20 players being the type that could really make much of a difference. In that group you may have an honest shot at 3-5 if you are a team like Edmonton and be fortunate to land one. You may even get lucky and sign an Eric Belanger at reasonable money, rather than handing some plug a long inflated deal. But given where the Oilers were you'ld be lucky if five Eric Belanger's would have turned the ship around.

If you're the 2009-2010 Oilers who do you trade to get an impact player. Outside of Hemsky and Whitney no Oiler would have gotten any significant return for the active roster. As such you would be looking at trading the first pick if you wanted immediate help. That was a legitimate option and it likey could have gotten you a very good roster player or perhaps two. This is the only move that might have gotten you out of a lottery slot. I still don't think this would have been the right thing to do given the chance to draft Hall but I have no problem if you disagree.

You've mentioned Souray before. I have my own issues with how this was handled. But Souray would have made no dent in the Oilers final outcome.

As for the upcoming season, I am pretty sure that we are looking at a team that will be drafting no better than 5th-7th. But the Oilers are in the business of selling entertainment. Of course they will try and dress the product up ant toss around a little snake oil. But it is what it is. I will still watch because I like the way some of these kids play the game. If you don't want to then that is your choice.

In the end, I am not going to argue that this was the only way for the team to go. I am saying that it was a legitimate option and that I doubt any other route would have produced much differnt an outcome.


Last edited by Fourier: 09-11-2011 at 04:44 PM.
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Old
09-11-2011, 04:29 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
the kids can not get used to losing--at some point in time losing becomes more then just falling in the standings it starts damaging the players psychii
Has this type of thing ever been documented? Players getting used to losing? It affecting them in the long term?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanner39
Some fans cheer more for Oilers' prospects and draft picks, than the actual team. Sad really. Hypothetically, the Oilers draft 1st in 2012, these same "fans" will want then to tank again to get the 2013 pick. It never ends.
It's all a continuum. Some people would be happy with mid-round picks and perpetual mediocrity. Others were okay with a single 1st overall pick (Hall). Then others with two (RNH). Some want more, but I've never seen someone say they wanted to keep losing for ever.

I'm personally wanting another Top 5 pick because I think we need one more top talent, preferably a defender. After that, I think it needs to stop. Four years after the Nordiques drafted first overall for the third time, they won the cup. I would be happy if the Oilers followed the same path.

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Old
09-11-2011, 04:35 PM
  #55
Bryanbryoil
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Debatable. But hopefully you are right. Smyth, Belanger, Eager, Sutton are potentially useful additions. The problem is the Oilers were so bad last year, that it will take a healthy season from key players and break-out seasons from at least a couple of youngsters just to get out of the basement.
IMHO, the Oilers won't see any play-off action until they weed out all the passengers incapable of playing the regular shift against other teams top players. That can be either through the process of natural progression or through trade/waiver wire.

Tambellini have made a good start this off-season dumping Fraser, Foster, MacIntire, and Cogliano. Hopefully, next season the list of passengers does not include Brule, Gagner and Omark. If they do not break out, this year should be their last season as Oilers.
There is a major difference between this year and last. Strudwick, Stortini, Fraser, JFJ, Foster, these guys are all gone. The kids have experience under their belts and we have added Smyth (much needed on ice leadership), Belanger, and Eager. We may also be adding RNH who should be a pretty good player IF he is ready.

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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Hard to blame fans for being brainwashed (and I totally agree with you that they are) when the captain of the team gives public interviews like this one he gave Tencer in response to Feaster's comments .
The amazing thing is that I must've brainwashed myself because I was calling for this type of a rebuild long before the actual rebuild. Why? Because we were mediocre is every sense of the word, kept getting beaten by Dallas, kept losing our top players to UFA (back then UFA was 31 so you could've kept a star for 13 years!), we couldn't attract FA's, etc. But I guess that since it finally happened probably 4-5 years after I called for it that I'm brainwashed by Tambellini. Whatever floats your boat I suppose. I also agree with Fourier, what is the model for a team that can't attract top end talent and is loaded with **** contracts to return to glory? Or would you simply have been happy with bottom 5 finishes instead of dead last ones? I guess maybe Niederreiter and Strome would've been better than Hall and RNH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanner39 View Post
Some fans cheer more for Oilers' prospects and draft picks, than the actual team. Sad really. Hypothetically, the Oilers draft 1st in 2012, these same "fans" will want then to tank again to get the 2013 pick. It never ends.

People need to realize that there is more than one way to build a good team. Drafting is just one of the pieces.
Again, who? This is simply throwing out an extreme point and passing it off as fact. The most that I have heard ANYONE say was 1 more high end pick beyond 2012, the consensus of the rebuild through the draft group is that 2012's draft will be the last high drafting draft for us.

And yes there are more than one way to build a team, however when you can't attract the top UFA's and don't have anything worth a **** to trade it makes the other methods a tad difficult no? It's always easy to play fantasy GM, however real life doesn't work that way, players get to dictate in many ways where they play, look at Pronger and Lubo as two examples, two of our best players and they wanted out.

BTW-I'm damn happy that we have Hall and RNH to lead the future instead of Horcoff and Moreau, for all of those that complain about rebuilding through the draft just be thankful that for the first time since the dynasty you can watch players like Hall and RNH in Oiler blue.

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Originally Posted by Ironlife View Post
I find all this talk about losing intriguing. I for one have been involved in sports my entire life, and my outlook on it is if your not first you lose. So in other words if you don't win the cup you lose... Some may find that a grim outlook, but in all honesty does the regular fan actually remember who came in 2nd in say 1964 or in 1973 or whatever if it wasn't the team that they cheer for? **** I don't even know who won the cup those years. And in all honesty I couldn't care less.

Now I am not saying we should "fail for nail" or whatever and losing lots of games in a season sucks, but the Oilers last year were somewhat entertaining, and they will be just as entertaining next year if not more.

But anyways getting back to what i was going to say is I won't be content till we have the cup in our hands, and anything worse then that will be considered a loss in my books. But I will still be there cheering and hoping that we do win, even if we do suck it up this season.

Let it play out, there is nothing any of us can do about it, watch and enjoy. And hopefully we can do well enough so we lose for very much longer.
Agreed, it's all about the cup and taking the path that best leads you there. Finishing 9th in the conference sucks because your draft pick takes a hit and unless you find a gem you are stuck in mediocrity. The only way that I'm fine with that kind of finish is when we are on our way up. I'll take losing seasons if it means that we are a true contender for quite some time.

In the meantime we are able to watch some top end talent become players before our very eyes, when it's all said and done we can say that we watched us go from the outhouse to the penthouse (hopefully, Cups are never guaranteed). Watching the team grow into a championship caliber team will be a lot of fun in my eyes, much better than getting b-slapped by Dallas every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
nice to see some of us have not fallen in love with losing and getting high picks
Hate it all that you want because unless this team catches lightning in a bottle you can expect another bottom 5 or 10 finish. And when we become an elite team take away our '10, '11, and '12 picks and see where we'd be without them.

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Old
09-11-2011, 04:38 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ZugNugget View Post
Has this type of thing ever been documented? Players getting used to losing? It affecting them in the long term?



It's all a continuum. Some people would be happy with mid-round picks and perpetual mediocrity. Others were okay with a single 1st overall pick (Hall). Then others with two (RNH). Some want more, but I've never seen someone say they wanted to keep losing for ever.

I'm personally wanting another Top 5 pick because I think we need one more top talent, preferably a defender. After that, I think it needs to stop. Four years after the Nordiques drafted first overall for the third time, they won the cup. I would be happy if the Oilers followed the same path.
Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang, Fleury, Neal
Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, Green, Carlson
Kane, Toews, Hossa, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook, Bolland
Kopitar, Richards, Doughty, Johnson, Quick/Bernier, Brown

These are the teams that we'll have to overcome to get to the top, IMO unless guys that we've already drafted really out perform expectations, we need another elite talent to compete with them long term.

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09-11-2011, 05:44 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
There is a major difference between this year and last. Strudwick, Stortini, Fraser, JFJ, Foster, these guys are all gone. The kids have experience under their belts and we have added Smyth (much needed on ice leadership), Belanger, and Eager. We may also be adding RNH who should be a pretty good player IF he is ready.
The only way RNH should be in the NHL this season is if he shows he is capable of handling top 6 role right off the bat. If not, he should go back to the WHL and dominate there. This will give him an extra development time, save a year on his ELC (which could be a big difference in 3 years' time) and give them an opportunity to see what they have in Gagner and possibly Lander (who might be NHL ready).

I think this year they go with: Horcoff-Gagner-Belanger-Lander down the middle. Next year RNH replaces Gagner or one of the vets (if Gagner really shows he is a legit top 6 center).

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Old
09-11-2011, 10:34 PM
  #58
nexttothemoon
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No arguments from me. I'd love to see another lottery pick and potential franchise player on the Oilers.

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Old
09-12-2011, 02:13 AM
  #59
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Crosby(1st), Malkin(2nd), Staal(2nd), Letang(62nd), Fleury(1st), Neal(Trade)
Ovechkin(1st), Semin(13th), Backstrom(5th), Green(26th), Carlson(27th)
Kane(1st), Toews(3rd), Hossa(UFA), Keith(54th), Sharp(Trade), Seabrook(14th), Bolland(32nd)
Kopitar(11th), Richards(Trade), Doughty(2nd), Johnson(Trade), Quick/Bernier(72nd)/(11th), Brown(13th)

These are the teams that we'll have to overcome to get to the top, IMO unless guys that we've already drafted really out perform expectations, we need another elite talent to compete with them long term.
When you look at how those teams were built most of them only had one or two bad seasons and pulled off a few good trades and UFA signings. As well as some decent drafting later in the draft. It should also be noted that the Hawks traded away a defender they picked 3rd Overall (Barker) showing that high draft pick's do ocassionally bust. And to compare our current group I'd say we need to make a trade or signing or both before we should be looking to add another top pick and this is why I believe we need to start looking to win now and pursuing more trade options.

Hall(1st),RNH(1st),Eberle(22nd),Hemsky(13th), MPS(10th), Gagner(6th), Dubnyk(14th), Whitney(Trade)

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09-12-2011, 02:23 AM
  #60
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The more I read about the upcoming draft class the more I think we need to add one of top three to our arsenal!
What say you?
I hope we make a development season out of it for some of the kids but still end up low enough to grab one of these guys!!
Deliberately throwing games, or even cultivating a losing environment in order to get better picks is never the right path to take.

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Old
09-12-2011, 02:26 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Game 8 View Post
The more I read about the upcoming draft class the more I think we need to add one of top three to our arsenal!
What say you?
I hope we make a development season out of it for some of the kids but still end up low enough to grab one of these guys!!
uhhhh.....no

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Old
09-12-2011, 02:27 AM
  #62
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What happens if we pick like say 8th overall?

That's still in position to get a very good player, but would be moving up the standings by several positions.

I could see that happening.

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09-12-2011, 04:08 AM
  #63
Bryanbryoil
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When you look at how those teams were built most of them only had one or two bad seasons and pulled off a few good trades and UFA signings. As well as some decent drafting later in the draft. It should also be noted that the Hawks traded away a defender they picked 3rd Overall (Barker) showing that high draft pick's do ocassionally bust. And to compare our current group I'd say we need to make a trade or signing or both before we should be looking to add another top pick and this is why I believe we need to start looking to win now and pursuing more trade options.

Hall(1st),RNH(1st),Eberle(22nd),Hemsky(13th), MPS(10th), Gagner(6th), Dubnyk(14th), Whitney(Trade)
Chicago from 2000-2007
10th, 9th, 21st, 14th, 3rd, 7th, 3rd, 1st

Pittsburgh 2002-2006
5th, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd

Washington 2002-2007
12th, 18th, 1st, 14th, 4th, 5th

Edmonton 2007-2011
6th, 22nd, 10th, 1st, 1st

We've added some key guys via trade, however we have to wait and see if some of our later round picks will pan out into stars ie. Letang/Keith/etc. In the meantime I still think that we have a better chance of adding another star caliber player via the 2012 draft than we do via free agency or trade.

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Old
09-12-2011, 04:57 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Chicago from 2000-2007
10th, 9th, 21st, 14th, 3rd, 7th, 3rd, 1st

Pittsburgh 2002-2006
5th, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd

Washington 2002-2007
12th, 18th, 1st, 14th, 4th, 5th

Edmonton 2007-2011
6th, 22nd, 10th, 1st, 1st

We've added some key guys via trade, however we have to wait and see if some of our later round picks will pan out into stars ie. Letang/Keith/etc. In the meantime I still think that we have a better chance of adding another star caliber player via the 2012 draft than we do via free agency or trade.
And we almost certainly will add a good prospect. By the sounds of it the 2012 daft if strong. Even if the Oilers finish outside the bottom 5, they should be able to grab a Paajarvi/Strome/Scheifele or Cowen/Siemens level prospect.

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Old
09-12-2011, 08:20 AM
  #65
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If we don't show some significant progress this year, we will lose Hemsky, and damage will be done to the psyche of all the young players here who will just get used to losing. We can't afford to have another horrible year.

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09-12-2011, 08:27 AM
  #66
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Some players that got used to losing:

Mario Lemieux
Missed the first 4 seasons, and one appearance in his first 6 seasons. Total bust of a player.

Joe Sakic
Sakic did not make the playoffs 5 out of his first 6 years. He went on to become a damaged mess of a player, playing on the worst team in the league.


In fact I see it happening with Rick Nash. He's turning into a terrible player. We saw how 'un-clutch' he was during the Vancouver Olympics.

Jarome Iginla hadn't made the playoffs in his first 7 years. He's a terribly brittle player. Very fragile Psyche.

Martin St.Louis hadn't made the show for 5 seasons. Took Marc Savard 11 seasons. Briere had one playoff appearance in 6 seasons. Heatley missed his first 3 (before being traded to Ottawa). Kovalchuk made 1 appearance in 9 seasons before being traded to Jersey.


Yup, I can totally see how that negatively affects a players psyche's.

You know.. rather than make them REALLY hungry.

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09-12-2011, 08:31 AM
  #67
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This just in: there are some players out there who lost games who later won games!

News at 11.

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09-12-2011, 09:47 AM
  #68
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And we almost certainly will add a good prospect. By the sounds of it the 2012 daft if strong. Even if the Oilers finish outside the bottom 5, they should be able to grab a Paajarvi/Strome/Scheifele or Cowen/Siemens level prospect.
The top three prospects sound the best too me, after that t appears to fall off a bit. My way of thinking we might as well get another world class player while we are down here, and let the current kids develop slowly.

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09-12-2011, 09:49 AM
  #69
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This just in: there are some players out there who lost games who later won games!

News at 11.

Can you provide some counter examples of players who were irrevocably damaged by losing, then?

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09-12-2011, 10:42 AM
  #70
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Sure, just go look at a list of players who played in the NHL, and then subtract the names of the people who are on the Stanely Cup.

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09-12-2011, 10:43 AM
  #71
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Can you provide some counter examples of players who were irrevocably damaged by losing, then?
Anybody drafted by the Florida Panthers until recently.

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09-12-2011, 11:09 AM
  #72
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Anybody drafted by the Florida Panthers until recently.
The recently part still remains to be seen...

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09-12-2011, 11:16 AM
  #73
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No, no, no, no, no!

I'm sick of this team losing all of the time. I understand that we aren't a playoff team yet, and very well could be a lottery team, but for cryin' out loud, it is embarrassing! I don't believe how many of my fellow Oil fans are okay with throwing in the towel before the season even starts. We don't have the depleted prospect/youth pool that we had two years ago, we don't have zero potential superstars like we did three years ago. We have some solid youth, and its time to develop these kids and show that we can improve.

I understand that people want a Ryan Murray, and that we need a future number one d-man. We don't need to finish bottom three to get a future top d-man, especially if you look at how many top end d-men there are, and none are likely to go 1 or 2. Murray, Reinhart, Dumbaa, etc., etc., etc. are all good d-men, as long as we get a top 10 pick (which we will barring miracles), we'll get a potential #1 d-man at the draft next year.

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09-12-2011, 11:24 AM
  #74
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After watching the bulk of our mid range picks last night this team is ready to get out of the lottery. If 2012's draft class is that deep with quality D prospects and a few standout F prospects we should be ok.
Let's start winning again plox.

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Old
09-12-2011, 12:35 PM
  #75
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Sewering it for one more year, like we did the last two years, is in the best interests of this hockey club. Taylor Hall won't be able to carry this club on his own. He'll need another elite player to help divide these responsibilities. Hopkins may also become an elite player but with no chance to make it into that 10th-20th place group of teams this season, we best try and improve on the pick coming our way next summer. The Oilers have some good support players in place now with Eberle,Paajarvi,Lander etc, now is a good time to move out Hemsky and Gagner for a second shot in the top 5 next summer.

I'll take my chances the two kids the Oilers get next summer will be better players than 83 or 89 will ever be. Both of those top 5 kids the Oilers get could probably make the team next fall. I'd even do some sortof Hemsky,Gagner and Petry to the Predators in exchange for the rights to Shea Weber next spring. Weber along with a top 3 selection next summer is exactly what this team needs.

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