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The Evolution of the Carter trade

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Old
09-12-2011, 01:27 PM
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sobrien
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The Evolution of the Carter trade

Dustin Leed retweeted this article/blog a few minutes ago, and it's certainly an interesting read, possibly connecting the dots of the Jeff Carter trade. Definitely worth the time.

http://flyersfocus.wordpress.com/201...r-to-columbus/

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09-12-2011, 01:37 PM
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It's a story about how the incorrect hockey masses that believed Carter was "lazy" were right about him just because Holmgren decided to move him?

I stopped reading at the point where I began to suspect something un-journalistic about this post.

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09-12-2011, 01:42 PM
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But he is lazy

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09-12-2011, 01:46 PM
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That would mean that the flyers sign Carter to that deal to move him and not to keep him. That sounds very un-flyer like.

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09-12-2011, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It's a story about how the incorrect hockey masses that believed Carter was "lazy" were right about him just because Holmgren decided to move him?

I stopped reading at the point where I began to suspect something un-journalistic about this post.
Nice non-sequitur...

The article actually made some relevent connections. Many of them were inferred or brought up by those who didn't have an alterior "hate" agenda which was always a red herring anyway. Moreover, they were brought up by some of the "insiders" who have since been gagged/self-censored.

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09-12-2011, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Nice non-sequitur...

The article actually made some relevent connections. Many of them were inferred or brought up by those who didn't have an alterior "hate" agenda which was always a red herring anyway. Moreover, they were brought up by some of the "insiders" who have since been gagged/self-censored.
First, I try.

Second, I thought most of those gagged insiders were gagged because of Richards discussion. Last I heard there was no real movement to move Carter from within the front office for what will politely be declared "off-ice" issues; according to those insiders anyway.

While this certainly does suggest that he was moved for on-ice issues as this article seems to suggest, I have my problems believing that the statistical on-ice leader of the Flyers just signed to a bargain contract was moved for such a reason.

There are only a limited amount of possibilities that exist here:

1) He was involved in off-ice incidents with Richards (under the assumption that Richards was involved in such things).
2) The Flyers were not happy with his on-ice play despite him statistically leading the team in pretty much all relative categories a forward can lead a team in.
3) The Flyers, having just signed him to a contract, were already second guessing the longevity of the deal.

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09-12-2011, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It's a story about how the incorrect hockey masses that believed Carter was "lazy" were right about him just because Holmgren decided to move him?

I stopped reading at the point where I began to suspect something un-journalistic about this post.
I had a little chuckle where Dreger is mentioned, he will never be McKenzie, he only gets the stories or leads that Mckenzie gives him or tell him to take. As for this article who cares, Holmers job was to get the best return for the players, the better use of journalistic discovery should be put towards penning the story of why Mr. Snider wanted both Carter and Richards gone, swiftly.

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09-12-2011, 02:34 PM
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Carter almost never hustled for anything. He would just glide with the play unless there was an empty net, then he would go faster than I've ever seen him move.


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09-12-2011, 02:39 PM
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Without going into all of that was it on-ice or off-ice issues behind the trade(s)...

I don't get pieces like this. How can it come as a surprise that gm's talk about players between themselves, and with our center situation of course other gm's would ask us about Carter, and as such of course Homer would see whatever could be made out of it.

Carter had been involved in trade rumours pretty much all the time since Richards broke out in 07-08. It was him for Kaberle for instance, remember.

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09-12-2011, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Without going into all of that was it on-ice or off-ice issues behind the trade(s)...

I don't get pieces like this. How can it come as a surprise that gm's talk about players between themselves, and with our center situation of course other gm's would ask us about Carter, and as such of course Homer would see whatever could be made out of it.

Carter had been involved in trade rumours pretty much all the time since Richards broke out in 07-08. It was him for Kaberle for instance, remember.
Dustin Leed, the writer of this article, was also throwing around rumors like Carter+ for Price a couple seasons ago. I remember it pretty well because I kind of told him off for such an insane rumor.

Price has certainly come into his own, but we're getting a little ridiculous if we start doing something like that.

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Old
09-12-2011, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
First, I try.

Second, I thought most of those gagged insiders were gagged because of Richards discussion. Last I heard there was no real movement to move Carter from within the front office for what will politely be declared "off-ice" issues; according to those insiders anyway.

While this certainly does suggest that he was moved for on-ice issues as this article seems to suggest, I have my problems believing that the statistical on-ice leader of the Flyers just signed to a bargain contract was moved for such a reason.

There are only a limited amount of possibilities that exist here:

1) He was involved in off-ice incidents with Richards (under the assumption that Richards was involved in such things).
2) The Flyers were not happy with his on-ice play despite him statistically leading the team in pretty much all relative categories a forward can lead a team in.
3) The Flyers, having just signed him to a contract, were already second guessing the longevity of the deal.

Carter was traded for hockey reasons more than any of the red herring hate crap that he was lazy. Therefore, not sure why it keeps being brought up other than to deflect from the fact that Carter was always a logical player to move given the return you could get for him and how you could leverage his roster spot in other ways....i.e. like getting a bonafide goalie and shoring up the wings with size. Exactly what we accomplished and more. The Carter trade for the return we got was a no brainer and Columbus is going to look like idiots in a few years although they got what they needed to hold that franchise over for the time being.

The insiders..like Renegade mentioned that the organization made up their mind to trade the both of them during the playoffs..something the article alludes to. So it seems more than just a coincidence. That is mostly what I'm alluding too not necessarily the off-ice stuff which was discussed ad naseum and really ties to Richards more than anything (not seeing eye to eye with the coach, not talking to the press, not being prepared for camp etc etc). Management probably realized that trading Carter wouldn't exactly be positive to the Richards situation as well so that's why they were both sent off their merry ways.

I do believe the clique thing and the drinking played a part but it never was any one thing IMO. It all just coalesced.

Anyway...time to move on. A new beginning will be shortly upon us...

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09-12-2011, 03:30 PM
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...a new beginning where Jagr is a Philadelphia Flyer. These truly must be the end times.

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Old
09-12-2011, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
That would mean that the flyers sign Carter to that deal to move him and not to keep him. That sounds very un-flyer like.
Sounds more likely exactly what they did to make it work for a small market team. Although very "Un-Flyer Like" , it is a savvy business decision.

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09-12-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Management probably realized that trading Carter wouldn't exactly be positive to the Richards situation as well so that's why they were both sent off their merry ways.
I think this is more how things went down. The Flyers didn't want one without the other. They were either going to commit to both or to neither.

When the decision was made to move Richards, moving Carter was the next logical maneuver.

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09-12-2011, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I think this is more how things went down. The Flyers didn't want one without the other. They were either going to commit to both or to neither.

When the decision was made to move Richards, moving Carter was the next logical maneuver.
I think it's somewhere along those lines definitely...it's just that Richards this year made it easier for the organization to make such a ballsy move..that and their NMC's kicking in. The organization just decided to reload..might experience some blowback in the short term but the organization will do just fine in the long run. I think the organization for once thought out of the box and did what was needed....

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Old
09-12-2011, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I think it's somewhere along those lines definitely...it's just that Richards this year made it easier for the organization to make such a ballsy move..that and their NMC's kicking in. The organization just decided to reload..might experience some blowback in the short term but the organization will do just fine in the long run. I think the organization for once thought out of the box and did what was needed....
Believe it or not, and this is something I touch upon in the upcoming top 20 article, this was really an interesting maneuver.

This is the kind of thing you see proposed on the trade boards, never so much in real life. It's a play straight out of NHL 2011.

Only history will be able to judge whether the moves were correct (I find it personally hard to believe that Schenn and Couturier will be singularly better than Richards and Carter, but coupled with Voracek and Simmonds plus the fact that they're all part of a youthful core including Giroux and vanRiemsdyk, I find this move entirely realistic as a win for the organization), but it's still cool to speculate on what went into these moves. It's not every day that you get to witness a particular build-up almost mystery-esque in real life.

It's almost like that awesome movie you saw where the ending blew you away so you go back and rewatch the movie to hunt for the obvious clues you missed.

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09-12-2011, 04:55 PM
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Sounds more likely exactly what they did to make it work for a small market team. Although very "Un-Flyer Like" , it is a savvy business decision.
Is it though? They pretty much guaranteed they'll never get another "hometown discount" from a player without a NMC attached. At least Richards ended up in a comparable situation in terms of competitiveness; by comparison, Carter was exiled sub-.500 hell. Of course, the Cartsie bashers could argue that a non-playoff team is the perfect situation for Carter.

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09-12-2011, 05:01 PM
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Is it though? They pretty much guaranteed they'll never get another "hometown discount" from a player without a NMC attached. At least Richards ended up in a comparable situation in terms of competitiveness; by comparison, Carter was exiled sub-.500 hell. Of course, the Cartsie bashers could argue that a non-playoff team is the perfect situation for Carter.
Dude only scores in blowouts. He won't be scoring much next year seeing as how it's still Columbus.

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09-12-2011, 05:16 PM
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Dustin Leed, the writer of this article, was also throwing around rumors like Carter+ for Price a couple seasons ago. I remember it pretty well because I kind of told him off for such an insane rumor.

Price has certainly come into his own, but we're getting a little ridiculous if we start doing something like that.
Dustin didn't write this, he just retweeted a link to it.

EDIT: It was written by Charlie O'Conner.

As for the article, and your first comment up top, it did feel like an aura of poor journalism all throughout, mainly because idk who the hell wrote the article Most authors usually identify themselves immediately before the story. But for the most part he seemed to sample facts from other stories and features, and connected the pieces for the reader.

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09-12-2011, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Dustin didn't write this, he just retweeted a link to it.

EDIT: It was written by Charlie O'Conner.
Ooops. My bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
As for the article, and your first comment up top, it did feel like an aura of poor journalism all throughout, mainly because idk who the hell wrote the article Most authors usually identify themselves immediately before the story. But for the most part he seemed to sample facts from other stories and features, and connected the pieces for the reader.
It was just a weird "article" all together. I don't really even get the purpose of it, though I understand sort of what he was trying to accomplish.

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09-12-2011, 06:48 PM
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this is and has always been the best part of the Flyers. the drama is insane. the moves we make. Every year they do somethin crazy or at least make some kind of move to show me their tryin. They are the best soap opera in the league. even without the cups you know we get our money's worth. Best team in the league just for this alone. i love it. Carter was a very good player but that contract was retarded. i think he's gonna be consistently injury prone and this will look like gold sooner than later. He buried himself when he didnt bury that shot at the end of game 6 for the win. That scarred my brain forever.

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09-12-2011, 06:58 PM
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It seems non-journalistic, because it's a random blog. Hell, I have one for the Flyers and I went as far to actually spring for a real domain...anyone can have one. Shameless ledgerofdoom.com plug here...

It is basically trying to draw a timeline that it wasn't some reactionary "because he drinks" type trade, but something that had quite a solid basis to occur for over a year.

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09-12-2011, 07:01 PM
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It seems non-journalistic, because it's a random blog. Hell, I have one for the Flyers and I went as far to actually spring for a real domain...anyone can have one. Shameless ledgerofdoom.com plug here...

It is basically trying to draw a timeline that it wasn't some reactionary "because he drinks" type trade, but something that had quite a solid basis to occur for over a year.
Your shameless plug worked on me...never heard of your site. Bookmarked it for now so keep up the good work and ill be a daily visitor my friend

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09-12-2011, 07:04 PM
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Your shameless plug worked on me...never heard of your site. Bookmarked it for now so keep up the good work and ill be a daily visitor my friend
Haha, thanks.

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Old
09-12-2011, 07:26 PM
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This is interesting, when I saw Elliotte Friedman's comment in 30 thoughts, I thought he was talking about this happening in 2011, not 2010. I just went back and read this year's column where he talks about it and saw that this was in the making from last year.

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