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Old
09-12-2011, 04:26 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_oil View Post
So the motion blur is gone with 120 hz? Like I said, it is visible on my 3 year old sony and I hate to pay good money just to see it again.
My buddy has a 120hz that has noticeable blur for hockey games, but I also have a 120hz (different make and model) that has zero blur for hockey or anything else. I think it may have to do with the quality of tv you buy or it could possibly be something in the way he has his set up, I dont know.

I know mine cost a fair bit more than just the average model, and sometimes I wonder if it was worth it, but the tv has been money from day one, and after watching hockey on his, I am thankful I paid a bit more.

I wouldnt consider buying a plasma anymore.

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09-12-2011, 04:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ZugNugget View Post
I just got a new TV after a lot of research. I picked up the 51 inch Samsung PN51D6900 plasma and am incredibly happy with it. I personally had to be converted to a plasma lover after owning an LCD for 5ish years, as I was convinced LCD/LED was the best in terms of picture quality.

As per my research, the reason plasmas may look worse than LEDs side by side is because plasmas are generally darker. While they may come off as looking worse, they're more accurate colour-wise and will likely look better in a light-controlled room.

I've also read that plasmas handle motion better than LEDs and have less of a blur effect (things look more cinematic rather than everything looking like reality television). This was my main concern, and I've been pleased that my TV is free from blur (Oilers vs. Canucks looked fantastic last night.

Best of luck!
I'm looking at the exact same TV. Do you happen to game on that TV as well?

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09-12-2011, 04:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 View Post
I'm looking at the exact same TV. Do you happen to game on that TV as well?
Yeah, but I've only played God of War 2 HD and Limbo on it so far, so I'm not sure how something faster like a racing game or a sports game would look. The games I've played have both looked incredible, though, so I would imagine other games would as well.

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09-12-2011, 04:49 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I know mine cost a fair bit more than just the average model, and sometimes I wonder if it was worth it, but the tv has been money from day one, and after watching hockey on his, I am thankful I paid a bit more.
I keep coming across similar testimonials. I'd suggest getting a higher-end model, even if the basic stats seem equivalent to a cheaper one. There's a lot of stuff that isn't reported and there's also a lot of stuff that has ambiguous rules for measurement.

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09-12-2011, 05:00 PM
  #30
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A ton of great tips in here!

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Old
09-12-2011, 05:00 PM
  #31
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A projector IS the way to go.

I recently picked up a 720p/1080i PJ off Consignia for $512 shipped.

I know, I know, it's not 1080p, but I find it very difficult to really tell the difference, especially when we're talking a 90"+ screen, and the $500-$1000 I saved by forgoeing 1080P means I can now afford Sunday Ticket and Centre Ice. What's the point of buying a 1080p projector if you have no more money to spend on programming... If money is no issue, then life is good.

My PJ setup looks equal to, if not better than, my friends 52" Bravia 1080p TV. The blacks are black, the brights are bright. The lamp life is excellent (I don't watch TV really, just sports and the occasional game of NHL) and fairly cheap to replace. My Bravia freind was blown away by the shear quality, and feels like a dolt for spending $2400 on it a few years ago. If you are the type who is enraged by 720p/1080i via HDMI, then this is not the projector for you, and well, you should probably relax.

As for screen options, if you are into DIY I can help you out on that. I bought an 8' x 4' piece of WilsonArt Fashion Grey laminate (bought through Windsor Plywood on St. Albert Trail, and picked up directly at McKillican that day) and mounted it to a 84" x 48" piece of 1/4" pegboard using contact cement. I did that part of the mounting by myself and it still came out excellent. There are two spots with very small bumps as I started rolling the cement with a bad roller brush and it left behind some lint. I would suggest trying to get a friend to help you with this, I think I just got lucky.

I drilled 3 hours through the peg board on the top, and 3 on the bottom. I attached about a dozen felt disks to the corners and rest of the back to help it stay flush. Then, using drywalls anchors, #8 screws, and washers, I mounted the whole thing to my wall with relative easy (and the help of a friend). It's not $800 screen, but it outperforms the $200 screens you find at BestBuy, and erally gives you something to be proud of! (I know because I had one, was disappointed and returned it for my DIY solution)

I masked the borders of the frame to cover the screws with 1.5" hockey tape, forgoeing the overpriced Black Velvet tape or constructing another frame to hang over the screen. The hockey tape is fantastic, it's a nice matte finish and really provides better constrast. To be honest though, the picture quality isnt any different with the masking, just looks a little more chic. Well, as chic as hockey tape can look! The purists would denounce such masking, but hell, I had a nice clean new roll of tape and wanted to save the $50 worth of masking to buy flowers for the girlfriend in a premptive move to not get nagged for spending too much time with my new toy...

I have the PJ and screen in my condo, right in the living room. My place is only 880 sqft, so I do not have a dedicated dark home theatre room. The condo has two 48" x 66" windows, facing south, and I still get decent picture in the afternoon. Once I installed my TUPPLUR blinds to each window (IKEA $34.99 each) I had a blacked out space that worked perfectly any time of the day.

For me, going from a 42" INCH Sharp LCD (1080p) to this was an incredible upgrade despite the resolution ratings.

I never believed it produce such high quality images, I just wanted the size, but I was sure suprised. Here is a breakdown of my costs:

Projector, Consignia: $512
Wilsonart Laminate: $56
8' x 4' 1/4" Pegboard (cut to size by Home Depot): $30
Roller Blinds (optional): $70
Screws, Washers, and Anchors: $5
Hockey tape: Free.

Total of $673 for a beautiful 93" 16:9 HDTV and I can easily pull the screen off and move it if need arises. The throw ratio of my projector allows the screen to easily reach beyond 200", but I do not have the space to place the PJ far enough back from the wall to get those images. However, I have taken it out to my friends large white house and placed it 30' away from the two storey house and we had an epic NHL 2011 session with players that were larger than life!

If anyone would like me to, I can post pictures of the screen both in operation and turned off, just ask.

Oh, and one more thing: If you are like me, and you think TV's and TV Stands, cables, boxes, etc. make a room look cluttered and take away space, then you should consider a projector. I have a 6' x 6' cabinet which stores all my lps, my turntable, receivers, HD box, XBOX, etc. and have no cables running all over or having to be ran through the wall. It's a very tidy solution and the neutral grey coloued screen is not an eyesore, although I am exploring a funky movie-curtain style treatment to cover the screen when not in use.

PJ's are awesome, but it's a matter of preference. If you want high-quality picutre without the bulkiness and mounting requirements of a LCD/Plasma, then go the PJ route!

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Old
09-12-2011, 05:07 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_oil View Post
You mean it's that clear or it's that grainy / shaky? Any handycam I've seen is poor. I presume it's simply that bright and clear. Thats what I've seen on the displays.

Do you have any glare issues off the screen, I've read the LED has issues with that, like a plasma.
Yeah I mean it's that clear.

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09-12-2011, 05:23 PM
  #33
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I have an LED and primarily use it as a gaming TV. Been happy so far with it.

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Old
09-12-2011, 05:23 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I would go with plasma in a hearttbeat. You can get a far better set for the same money. Plasma is naturally 600hz. There is no issue with motion blur.

Even on 120hz LED's blur can still happen. And not all panels at that speed are made equal.



I really have to disagree with this. Lcd's (or equivalently LED's) have their advantages. Primarily, they are much brighter and as such tend to look better in showrooms. They also handle direct light somewhat better. But the best TV made is still the old Pioneer Elite plasma. No current LED has touched this. Pioneer did stop making plasmas, but Smasung and Panasonic are going full guns.

For the record I have both and would choose the plasma everytime in the situation you describe.
this

I listened to Fourier before, got the large plasma screen for the dark recroom and its been amazing and for a very low price. No blur, clear picture, and I don't experience glare although I have dimming lights and multiple switches in rec room so I got the perfect lighting.

Plasma's do great in dark rec rooms. Never saw anything like blur or what Reimer is describing. Fantastic for watching sports, auto racing, you name it, nothing yet has been too fast for my plasma.

With the one proviso that you should get a real attractive price for a plasma screen.

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09-12-2011, 05:31 PM
  #35
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Plasmas start degrading the minute you turn them on. LED's have the same picture after years of watching.

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09-12-2011, 05:35 PM
  #36
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LED. I think it'll be better now and in the long run.

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09-12-2011, 05:41 PM
  #37
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I bought a $400 Samsung 720p Plasma during a sale and it was surprisingly good. For the price I am happy as any of the other sets that are more expensive does not make that much of a difference to me. The differences are imperceptible IMO. Most HD broadcasts are i 720 p and I have very few 1080p programs.

When I researched the LED-LCD vs Plasmas, I looked at every article and forum I could Google and I decided on Plasmas.

The have truer colours, no motion blur and it cost wise a better value.

There is no edge lit or local dimming or motion blur issues as with LCDs.

To the naked eye I don't see that much difference anyway except LCDs look a bit more sharper and brighter. I want accurate colours though so Plasma is for me. The life expectancy for both is about the same.

As for glare you cannot avoid it unless you want a worst picture. Glare is a result of having a good picture and without it it would be a matte finish.

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09-12-2011, 05:55 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I would go with plasma in a hearttbeat. You can get a far better set for the same money. Plasma is naturally 600hz. There is no issue with motion blur.

Even on 120hz LED's blur can still happen. And not all panels at that speed are made equal.



I really have to disagree with this. Lcd's (or equivalently LED's) have their advantages. Primarily, they are much brighter and as such tend to look better in showrooms. They also handle direct light somewhat better. But the best TV made is still the old Pioneer Elite plasma. No current LED has touched this. Pioneer did stop making plasmas, but Smasung and Panasonic are going full guns.

For the record I have both and would choose the plasma everytime in the situation you describe.
This is not at all true.

The 600Hz that is referred to is actually the picture being processed in 10 different sub-frames at 60Hz per frame. The smaller signal size of each sub frame allows for the image to be refreshed more efficiently, but its "natural" refresh rate is 60Hz.

In the end, however, both LED's and plasmas can offer exceptional picture quality, as long as it is the right product. In the end, don't get crappy sources (use a PS3 as a blue ray if you can), don't fall into the $150 HDMI cable trap (trust me, get all your cables at Princess Auto, just make sure they are rated to do 3D. It will floor you how much cheaper they are there) and take your time with your purchase.

This will also be a very unpopular sentiment, but I worked in electronic retail for 20 years, and I wouldn't consider buying a large TV without getting the extended service plan on it. Visions has a good program in the sense that it is refunded in the form of a credit if you don't use it.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

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09-12-2011, 06:19 PM
  #39
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I have a projector question - if I put a projector in my living room. it needs to be 14 feet away from the wall it will project on, but the screen cannot be bigger than 92" (80" wide). Can I do this? Adjust the size from a set distance, or is the size of the picture dictated by the distance of the projector from the screen?

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09-12-2011, 06:26 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game 8 View Post
Plasmas start degrading the minute you turn them on. LED's have the same picture after years of watching.
Planning on keeping the same unit for 20 years?

You're not my grandma by any chance, are you?

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09-12-2011, 06:27 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game 8 View Post
Plasmas start degrading the minute you turn them on. LED's have the same picture after years of watching.
Confirmation on this? cause I am also debating led or plasma

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09-12-2011, 06:28 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver View Post
Planning on keeping the same unit for 20 years?

You're not my grandma by any chance, are you?
Hahahahahaha, you can always find another use for a big screen tv!

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Old
09-12-2011, 06:41 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Confirmation on this? cause I am also debating led or plasma
My own take is its not worth worrying about. I mean how long do people keep TV's now?

Right.

The one thing with a Plasma is I'm dedicated about turning it off if I'm not watching it, I don't play games on it, I don't use it for a computer display. I use it to watch HD programming, DVD's Blurays. If I used it enough to burn it out its pretty clear I'm watching too much Telly.

ftr for me I've had the plasma TV 2years and I can't detect one iota of decreased clarity.

If anything the crystal clear quality makes viewing anything other than HD something you don't want to do. I'm hardly ever out of the HD band.

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09-12-2011, 06:51 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Confirmation on this? cause I am also debating led or plasma
I use my Plasma for gaming (online Cally of Duty) and watching sports in my basement. It is a Panasonic which is probably the best around for the price.

I have alot of friends with LED's that come over and they are blown away by the colors and clarity of my Plasma. The blacks are actually black.

They all have issues with Blurring and the 120HZ TV's still have that issue.

Stop by Soundsurround and ask those guys what is the best, they sold me a cheaper TV becuase of what i was using it for. Plasma all the way.

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09-12-2011, 06:52 PM
  #45
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You're a math guy, right? Not trying to be a jerk here at all, but can you explain to me how 600hz refresh helps for 24hz movies or inherently 30hz or 60hz source material such as hockey games? Apart from interpolation to make data out of thin air, I mean.
My post above was somewhat misleading, though not intentionally. I did not mean to suggest that a plasma was better with motion because of the 600hz. It is actually the case that the refresh rate on a plasma is really 60hz, but the plasma has 10 subfields each refreshing at 60hz. (As O'Jase suggests). Technically this is a 600hz refresh rate but the effective rate is 60hz.

Typically plasmas had judder on 24hz sources if you went back a few years. This was one of the things that made Pioneer plasmas so great is that they handled 24hz sources superbly. Typically it is a 3:3 pulldown to 72hz I believe. (OJ you may want to add something here.)

I have not followed the latest plasma tech stuff since I bought mine. It is likley that things have changed somewhat in how plasmas manage different sources.

You did not ask about motion blur, but I will say that in the end it is not simply the refresh rate that determines how a tv deals with motion. PDP's (plasmas) and LCD's actually construct the picture in a different way. Moreover PDP's have a much faster response rate making motion blur practically a non-issue. Even within the same technology (LCD/LED) and at the same refresh rate the instances of motion blur and related artifacts can vary substantially as response rate and the quality of the processing can be quite different across sets.

If one wants to get a very good educatiuon on how these techniologies work I suggest doing a search for user xrox over at

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/

He does a great job of explaining the technical stuff in a way that is understandable. He is also very patient with questions.

Ultimately though, things have gotten so good that if you are not overly anal about the picture, and you have a very good source to begin with it is going to be hard not to be happy with what you get.


Last edited by Fourier: 09-12-2011 at 07:08 PM.
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09-12-2011, 07:30 PM
  #46
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There is some good advice here.

You really have to be careful buying home electronics, there are a lot of tricks used to make a more profitable product appear better.

I remember back in the days when I was in home electronics sales, there was a brand of cheap speakers sold as high end speakers. The company responsible for selling them would use a special CD encoded with sonic-holography technology. This is a method of recording that accentuated the acoustic imaging. They would use this disc and demonstrate how well you could here the sound locations (imaging). They never told the customer about the special CD and that this worked on all speakers. Then, because these speakers had a huge markup they could offer a big discount and still make a handsome profit.

Some of you may know the scheme and brand of speaker I'm talking about I think they still sell them but I have no idea if they incorporate the same scam to do so.

My point is the same type of things can be doe with monitors. If at all possible make sure you buy where they have a reasonable return policy. If you don't like what you see at home you can take it back without hassle.

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09-12-2011, 07:46 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
My post above was somewhat misleading, though not intentionally. I did not mean to suggest that a plasma was better with motion because of the 600hz. It is actually the case that the refresh rate on a plasma is really 60hz, but the plasma has 10 subfields each refreshing at 60hz. (As O'Jase suggests). Technically this is a 600hz refresh rate but the effective rate is 60hz.

Typically plasmas had judder on 24hz sources if you went back a few years. This was one of the things that made Pioneer plasmas so great is that they handled 24hz sources superbly. Typically it is a 3:3 pulldown to 72hz I believe. (OJ you may want to add something here.)

I have not followed the latest plasma tech stuff since I bought mine. It is likley that things have changed somewhat in how plasmas manage different sources.

You did not ask about motion blur, but I will say that in the end it is not simply the refresh rate that determines how a tv deals with motion. PDP's (plasmas) and LCD's actually construct the picture in a different way. Moreover PDP's have a much faster response rate making motion blur practically a non-issue. Even within the same technology (LCD/LED) and at the same refresh rate the instances of motion blur and related artifacts can vary substantially as response rate and the quality of the processing can be quite different across sets.

If one wants to get a very good educatiuon on how these techniologies work I suggest doing a search for user xrox over at

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/

He does a great job of explaining the technical stuff in a way that is understandable. He is also very patient with questions.

Ultimately though, things have gotten so good that if you are not overly anal about the picture, and you have a very good source to begin with it is going to be hard not to be happy with what you get.

The issue with blur on most modern displays is not so much a factor of refresh rate but rather of pixel recovery. The problem with some LCD displays is that the LCD element cannot turn on and off instantly, even if the signal tells it to do so. Because of this the image cannot rapidly change from white to black or and that is why you would see comet tailing on a fast-moving puck, for example. This is also referred to as latency. If you had an old school pong game in black and white it would be a good test for latency. I say that as an example because who on earth would still have an original pong game.

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09-12-2011, 07:51 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alawishis View Post
There is some good advice here.

You really have to be careful buying home electronics, there are a lot of tricks used to make a more profitable product appear better.

I remember back in the days when I was in home electronics sales, there was a brand of cheap speakers sold as high end speakers. The company responsible for selling them would use a special CD encoded with sonic-holography technology. This is a method of recording that accentuated the acoustic imaging. They would use this disc and demonstrate how well you could here the sound locations (imaging). They never told the customer about the special CD and that this worked on all speakers. Then, because these speakers had a huge markup they could offer a big discount and still make a handsome profit.

Some of you may know the scheme and brand of speaker I'm talking about I think they still sell them but I have no idea if they incorporate the same scam to do so.

My point is the same type of things can be doe with monitors. If at all possible make sure you buy where they have a reasonable return policy. If you don't like what you see at home you can take it back without hassle.
This was a slick presentation. They sold a lot of speakers for much much more than they were worth. Canadian made as well, though I am not sure if they are still being made.

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09-12-2011, 08:05 PM
  #49
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I have three Samsung plasma TVs at home, including a four-year-old 50". I bought a 42" Samsung plasma 720p over a year ago and another 43" Samsung 720p a few months ago. My daughter, who is an avid gamer (Call of Duty, etc) was aghast when I told her I was giving her the 42" plasma for her PS3 (bought it for $400 on sale last year) because she was used to a 46" 1080p 120hz LED TV at her mom's, who had paid close to $2000 for it at the time. I explained to her that the plasma would handle the motion better (Call of Duty involves big-time motion) and that the resolution would be fine... Not even sure if CoD cranks out 1080p...anyway. It's been a couple of months and she told me the other day that I was absolutely right and that the plasma is way better than her mom's TV for gaming because it's so clear and that motion blur is not an issue. She says she sees "targets" way better when she "running around" in the game.

I did side-by-side comparisons at futureshop some time ago when they were showing an HD broadcast of Hockey Night in Canada, comparing a plasma to a new 240hz model LED and when the camera quickly panned around, the plasma handled it so much better. No blur.

On a side note, I have yet to see burn-in on my four-year-old plasma. Another thing: You can save big bucks by getting a 720p. What people don't realize is that your satellite and cable signal is only 720p (or 1080i). The only source you can get that is 1080p is blue-ray and I believe some video games.

Anyway, for sports and games, plasma is still the way to go.

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09-12-2011, 08:24 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
This was a slick presentation. They sold a lot of speakers for much much more than they were worth. Canadian made as well, though I am not sure if they are still being made.
What are the speakers so you can inform us of what to avoid should we go speaker shopping!

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