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The Evolution of the Carter trade

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Old
09-13-2011, 02:21 PM
  #51
Damaged Goods
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, Carter led the team in game-tying goals...meaning he was the best on the team at scoring while we were losing. That alone hurts the whole "blowout" argument.
That's not exactly what it means. But that number helps a little bit. Still, GTG and GWG are extremely bare-bones. For example, putting your team up 3-2 in the 3rd period of a game you eventually lose 4-3, or scoring the only goal in a 1-2 defeat, is more significant than scoring the 6th goal in an eventual 7-0 victory. GTG and GWG do not comment on any of those situations.

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Old
09-13-2011, 02:52 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
That's not exactly what it means. But that number helps a little bit. Still, GTG and GWG are extremely bare-bones. For example, putting your team up 3-2 in the 3rd period of a game you eventually lose 4-3, or scoring the only goal in a 1-2 defeat, is more significant than scoring the 6th goal in an eventual 7-0 victory. GTG and GWG do not comment on any of those situations.
Somewhere out there are stats that keep track of goal differential when a goal is scored, I'll see if I can dig it up. I'm at work, so no promises though. Others might have those sites handy.

Using NHL.com and last season, 9 of Carter's goals were first goals, and 7 were game winning goals. I can't find his gametying goals with a quick browse, but I recall that it's something similar. even assuming that his gametying goals is 7 (I believe it's more like 12? Maybe? I don't really know and could easily be wrong), it means that 21 of his 36 goals were pretty important to the game.

Another popular bash on Carter is the "oh, sure, he only now scores on an empty net" comment I've heard many times. He had only 2 empty net goals last season, and 1 the year before. So much for that.

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Old
09-13-2011, 02:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Somewhere out there are stats that keep track of goal differential when a goal is scored, I'll see if I can dig it up. I'm at work, so no promises though. Others might have those sites handy.

Using NHL.com and last season, 9 of Carter's goals were first goals, and 7 were game winning goals. I can't find his gametying goals with a quick browse, but I recall that it's something similar. even assuming that his gametying goals is 7 (I believe it's more like 12? Maybe? I don't really know and could easily be wrong), it means that 21 of his 36 goals were pretty important to the game.

Another popular bash on Carter is the "oh, sure, he only now scores on an empty net" comment I've heard many times. He had only 2 empty net goals last season, and 1 the year before. So much for that.


Beef, don't try to use logic or reason for this argument. This is clearly an emotionally based argument.

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Old
09-13-2011, 03:41 PM
  #54
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Beef, don't try to use logic or reason for this argument. This is clearly an emotionally based argument.
That's what Carter-bashing is.

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Old
09-13-2011, 03:52 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FlyersFocus View Post
I wasn't trying to answer the question of why - that remains uncertain and likely always will. I was purely exploring the "how" of the trade.




I understand your criticism. I was trying to provide background information regarding the situation of Jeff Carter prior to 2010, not attempting to ascertain the motivations of the organization. If it came across as putting words in the front office's mouth, I'm sorry.

I also removed the Friedman section, because after reading this thread, I'm honestly unsure whether he is referring to the 2010 or 2011 Boston series. Because I can't 100% stand behind that argument, I felt like it needed to be removed. Thanks for the feedback.
Why don't you ask him? He just put up a new "30 Thoughts" today and you can ask him in the comments section. He reads the comments and has replied to people there and has also made clarifications and corrections based on feedback. I'm really curious now because I understood him to mean 2011's series vs Boston. If that's what he was referring to, it kind of blows a big chunk of your blog up. If he meant 2010, your blog makes more sense.

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Old
09-13-2011, 03:55 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That's what Carter-bashing is.
To be fair most of the carter bashing cannot be shown in stats. Say Carter misses 10clear cut chances, it only registers as 10 missed shots, which doesn't stand out as an anomaly. We have all been fustrated with Carter at least 2-3 times in a season when he missed what were un-missable chances.

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Old
09-13-2011, 03:58 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
To be fair most of the carter bashing cannot be shown in stats. Say Carter misses 10clear cut chances, it only registers as 10 missed shots, which doesn't stand out as an anomaly. We have all been fustrated with Carter at least 2-3 times in a season when he missed what were un-missable chances.
Fair enough. High and wide Carter was a legitimate thing. Granted, there are a lot of snipers in the league who miss quite a bit.

Laziness, defensive-ineptitude, disappearing when physically challenged, only scoring in blowouts...those are all indefensible Carter-bashings.

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Old
09-13-2011, 03:59 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
To be fair most of the carter bashing cannot be shown in stats. Say Carter misses 10clear cut chances, it only registers as 10 missed shots, which doesn't stand out as an anomaly. We have all been fustrated with Carter at least 2-3 times in a season when he missed what were un-missable chances.
His chances were only noticed so much because of the ridiculous amount of bashing towards him. If there weren't so many haters making comments about his misses while staying silent on his goals, the misses wouldn't have been as noticeable.

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Old
09-13-2011, 04:02 PM
  #59
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Giroux blowing golden scoring chances because he refuses to shoot/wants to pass is equally frustrating. Nobody scores every time they have the puck.

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09-13-2011, 04:22 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Giroux blowing golden scoring chances because he refuses to shoot/wants to pass is equally frustrating. Nobody scores every time they have the puck.
I wouldn't say that it's as fustrating as we know it's always been in Giroux's mindset to pass first. He does take his fair share of the criticism about it too. For Carter's game to be based around goal scoring and shooting first as a mentality, missing those chances was that much more painful to watch. Especially when the likes of Nodl were scoring.

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Old
09-13-2011, 04:29 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I wouldn't say that it's as fustrating as we know it's always been in Giroux's mindset to pass first. He does take his fair share of the criticism about it too. For Carter's game to be based around goal scoring and shooting first as a mentality, missing those chances was that much more painful to watch. Especially when the likes of Nodl were scoring.
You'd hate to have Ovechkin on the Flyers, then. Last season he shot more than Carter and scored less.

edit: Carter just couldn't win here. When he missed the net, it was Mr. High and Wide. When he hit the goalie, it was Mr. Only-Snipes-Chests. When he scored, it was "lazy bum FINALLY put it in." It was pretty stupid overall. Unless he scored on every shot he took, people were going to whine.

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Old
09-13-2011, 04:36 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You'd hate to have Ovechkin on the Flyers, then. Last season he shot more than Carter and scored less.

edit: Carter just couldn't win here. When he missed the net, it was Mr. High and Wide. When he hit the goalie, it was Mr. Only-Snipes-Chests. When he scored, it was "lazy bum FINALLY put it in." It was pretty stupid overall. Unless he scored on every shot he took, people were going to whine.
If it was only about the shooting, yes. But Ovechkin is an impact player all over the ice. He's not as good defensively as Carter, but his ridiculously huge hits in any zone keeps his opponents extra cautious, which can lead to mistakes. Also, Carter was a bit of a floater whereas Ovechkin (at least the perception of him) is a guy who gives it 150% every shift.

But I get your point, I don't think you were outright saying that we'd hate to have Ovechkin over Carter

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Old
09-13-2011, 04:38 PM
  #63
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Ovechkin does miss a ******** of shots, and that's really all I'm commenting on...and I think it's a pretty stupid argument overall. It isn't easy to get in a position to fire off shots, that alone is a skill.

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Old
09-13-2011, 04:52 PM
  #64
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I never understood how people could dislike their leading goal scorer so much.

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Old
09-13-2011, 05:03 PM
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=371723

Mike Richards missed the net at a higher rate than Jeff Carter last year.

Just saying.

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09-13-2011, 05:14 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I wouldn't say that it's as fustrating as we know it's always been in Giroux's mindset to pass first. He does take his fair share of the criticism about it too. For Carter's game to be based around goal scoring and shooting first as a mentality, missing those chances was that much more painful to watch. Especially when the likes of Nodl were scoring.
And thank God we kept Nodl and got rid of Carter! Can't wait to see Nodl hit 30+ goals this season

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Old
09-13-2011, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=371723

Mike Richards missed the net at a higher rate than Jeff Carter last year.

Just saying.
TRADE HIM!!

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Old
09-13-2011, 05:22 PM
  #68
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TRADE HIM!!
I like what you've done here.

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Old
09-13-2011, 05:29 PM
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And thank God we kept Nodl and got rid of Carter! Can't wait to see Nodl hit 30+ goals this season
Carter 2010-11 Shooting Percentage: 10.7%
Nodl 2010-11 Shooting Percentage: 11.0%

Nodl = next Rocket Richard runner-up.

And here you jerks were wondering where the goals this year were going to come from. Look no further than Nodl. Given more ice time I'm sure it'll work out.



:sarcasm : because people are pretty dumb sometimes.

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Old
09-13-2011, 05:36 PM
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Carter 2010-11 Shooting Percentage: 10.7%
Nodl 2010-11 Shooting Percentage: 11.0%

Nodl = next Rocket Richard runner-up.

And here you jerks were wondering where the goals this year were going to come from. Look no further than Nodl. Given more ice time I'm sure it'll work out.



:sarcasm : because people are pretty dumb sometimes.
Put him with Schenn and Simmonds...70 point seasons for all of them

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Old
09-13-2011, 08:39 PM
  #71
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A degree in English/Journalism and 3 years writing here. I'm not exactly in any rush
Well, it's a good thing your field isn't disintegrating.

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Old
09-13-2011, 09:35 PM
  #72
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Put him with Schenn and Simmonds...70 point seasons for all of them
id be well satisfied if that line had a 70 pt year

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Old
09-14-2011, 12:00 AM
  #73
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Hey guys, Charlie O'Connor here.

Thanks for reading my blog post. After reading through the thread, I did want to clear a few things up.

Third, with regards to the purpose of the piece: this was a post trying to piece together all of the rumors, that in retrospect, appear related to the Jeff Carter trade. I felt like these connections had not been made by anyone thus far in the analysis following the trade, and I found the information interesting.

Hopefully this clarifies some of the comments regarding the post. Again, thanks for reading, guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFocus View Post
I understand your criticism. I was trying to provide background information regarding the situation of Jeff Carter prior to 2010, not attempting to ascertain the motivations of the organization. If it came across as putting words in the front office's mouth, I'm sorry.
To fill in an additional bit of background, Columbus had contacted Philadelphia about Jeff Carter as far back as 2008. As far as I know, it wasn't anything of real substance, and ended with "If you ever decide to move him, we'd love to talk about it..." type of deals. At that point, Carter was a pending RFA in that offseason, and Philly was looking at the first of many bouts of cap-related pressure. There was also the possibility of him receiving an offer sheet that July, had he not signed the extension in late June.

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Old
09-14-2011, 06:55 AM
  #74
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Article got a mention on BSH's morning fly by today...WELCOME TO THE BIG SHOW.

That is enough credibility for me.

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Old
09-14-2011, 07:20 AM
  #75
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I'm really tired, could someone link me (or just quote) this Elliot Friedman thing? thanks.

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