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Still ~4+ Million under the cap... what do?

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Old
09-13-2011, 07:00 PM
  #126
AntonCH
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Certain posters need to realize that here in Montreal hockey is big business.
Filling the stands and selling merchandise / beer etc is priority #1
next important step is to get to the playoffs for the extra paychecks, as owners are invariably in it for the money.
Now enter the salary cap world with a capped payroll and winning gets tougher. Since we've been in the cap world the Habs have done better than most. I for one see a future that has promise and youngsters in the system (whether the big club - AHL or otherwise) that can or have become cornerstones of this team. Price Subban Pacioretty et al.
Throw in Pleks Beaulieu leblanc tinordi and a few more and this club will be going places.
There's no need to make a year end move if you're not truly a piece away.
Iginla was traded for Niewendyk, niewendyk won the cup and calgary had a star for years to come - basically worked out for both sides.
Gauthier has done a decent job taking over from Bob so far - he's plugged the holes where he's had to; let's see where this goes, where i'm sitting the boat is headed in the right direction. As for getting a vet guy every year for $1 mill or so is ok as long as you know that you'll be slowing the development of your youth - and they do have to be given chances sometimes. so for this year no, Madden or anyone else is not necessary to start the season

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09-13-2011, 09:40 PM
  #127
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To your point, do you think Lou Lamoriello would have ever been given a chance to GM in Montreal. I don't.

What are the chances of him taking his Devils back to the Cup before a Gauthier does.
Realistacily and statisticaly, both teams don't have that much of a chance winning a cup with Gauthier and Lou. This 2 GMs won't be around for ever and only 1 team wins the cup per year, so do the math...

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09-13-2011, 09:57 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I was quite certain that this board's minister of propaganda was going to respond so thank you for not disappointing me.
Right..

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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
So, we are to take your story that the team's second in command (who it has been suggested may have actually been making team decisions for some time) was in an entire disconnect with Gainey and that they were acting as though Gainey's files were passed over on the day Gainey stepped aside. That's pretty much an admission you have no knowledge of how organizations are compartmentalized or work.
It's not a story, it's fact.
GM, Bob Gainey.
Ass. GM Pierre Gauthier.

You think they were on par on every decision? Do you agree with every single work related decision with your boss?

But hey, you seem to think you have this inside knowledge of how GMs and Ass. GMs work in the NHL, so please, spread the wealth of info.

I said Gainey was in charge, for all we know, maybe Gauthier told him about Moore, maybe he didn't. Maybe Moore was holding out for a bigger salary than what he got. You think Tanguay held out for that spectacular deal out of TB?..

Bottom line is, you don't freaking know. So don't pass judgment on it.
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Your assertions fit your role/schtick on this board, that second rounders outbound are valueless and inbound plugs like Bournival are brilliance even when proven otherwise. You practice these lines so completely that even in the face of nearly immediate information that shows an incorrect assessment you cling to your management story like you are testifying before congress.
I never said 2nd rounders aren't valuable, I said they are worth an ECF appearance.
Maybe if you didn't have this ''gnagnagna management gnagnagna'' idiotic assessment, you'd understand better and stop using childish remarks.

I said we exchanged assets with Colorado. Is that true? Yes.
You said PG could have forethought it better, despite the FACT, O'Byrne was the 7-8th on our depth chart, had not shown great signs of improvement, and was unhappy. Still, we got a prospect in return, and really, tell me what you dislike of Bournival, I'm very curious to read this.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Other peoples concerns about the unsustainability of PG's approach and the loose spending of assets is valid, you need to get over yourself and join a discussion of these things. If you can't do that then hit the ignore button this isn't your board Mr. Minister.
PG has given up assets, yes. Your examples were extremely weak however.
He exchanged asset in the O'Byrne trade (that's right genius, EXCHANGED). You might be against the trade, you might not like Bournival (for reasons that you will obviously tell me), but he still got a return, so he didn't give him up for nothing.
As for Moore, your critic is that he could have signed him in the summer. First of all, he wasn't GM (how you try to spin this as ''bahhh, they work together!! DuH!! Of course he could have made Gainey signed him, he's his assistant!! Duh!!'' is so idiotic, it's beyond belief). Second, you just don't know whether management or even Moore, were interested. All this is, is a pure speculation on your part. But hey, I'm the one spreading propaganda right...

Not sure why I'm responding to your pathetic post, it doesn't even warrant a response.

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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I'm confining my argument to these examples however there are others that prove that PG's mindset is operational and less forward thinking than the job requires. Others should be able to join in without your adle minded and childish attacks. Your emotional retorts to the defence of the GM is what I would expect from one of his family members which I assume you are not.
Not sure quite to say here, this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and is simply you trying to insult me in some way.

Talk about wasting picks on guys like Mara, or Sopel, when it is clear that our PO run will not be a long one. Sure. Talk about Lappy being moved, and then moved by another team for a better return, sure. Don't talk about a move that happened when he WASN'T GM, and don't talk about a trade when we got a good prospect in return. That just makes you look foolish.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
As long as people choose to be fooled by unspectacular management that fails to bolster the lineup in September in favour of acquiring shiny new objects in February this team will gravitate to the 6th-10th position in the conference and stay there.
Sure we will buddy, 6th-10th is all we're destined to be under Gauthier and Martin. There is no room for improvement and our asset management is weak. Awesome job.
We finished 6th last year, so I take it you don't think we improved this summer even though we have Markov-PK coming back, Cole signed, and interesting youngsters/prospects coming in with White, Weber and Emelin.

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Old
09-13-2011, 09:59 PM
  #129
HCH
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I haven't read all the responses yet but to me the hockey season is a marathon not a sprint.

At the beginning of the year you put together a team that you feel will be competitive and let them play. As the season progresses you evaluate your players to determine strengths and weaknesses. The injury situation is also a wildcard that may require roster adjustments.

Trying to predict the level of play, the inconsistencies, the surprises, the disappointments and the injuries before the season even begins is almost absurd. By the time the trade deadline approaches you will have a good idea of what you might need to do (if anything) to improve your chances.

IMO what Gauthier has done is exactly that. This team should be competitive from day one... maybe not dominating but certainly competitive. And in this era of salary caps that is all you can ask for. By giving himself some cap flexibility he can adjust the roster more easily to improve the team... and he will have a better idea of exactly where that improvement is needed.

So I would say sit on the $4 million until it becomes clear where it will provide the greatest benefit.

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09-13-2011, 11:05 PM
  #130
Agnostic
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
I haven't read all the responses yet but to me the hockey season is a marathon not a sprint.

At the beginning of the year you put together a team that you feel will be competitive and let them play. As the season progresses you evaluate your players to determine strengths and weaknesses. The injury situation is also a wildcard that may require roster adjustments.

Trying to predict the level of play, the inconsistencies, the surprises, the disappointments and the injuries before the season even begins is almost absurd. By the time the trade deadline approaches you will have a good idea of what you might need to do (if anything) to improve your chances.

IMO what Gauthier has done is exactly that. This team should be competitive from day one... maybe not dominating but certainly competitive. And in this era of salary caps that is all you can ask for. By giving himself some cap flexibility he can adjust the roster more easily to improve the team... and he will have a better idea of exactly where that improvement is needed.

So I would say sit on the $4 million until it becomes clear where it will provide the greatest benefit.
That would be a good approach pre-lockout. Today the rosters are more cemented, parity preventing a clear picture of which teams may be out of contention for playoff spots and what players may shake loose. And in getting those players you need to trade future assets which are quite valuable to this organization now.. The argument for a Madden type signing in September is that it is relatively free depth.

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09-14-2011, 04:05 AM
  #131
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People were crying and *****ing and moaning about OB until the moment he got traded. then when they saw the return he got, turned around and *****ed about that.

he sucked here and is only getting ice time in colorado because they are ****ing awful.

oh, and that 4 mil will go to a rental at the deadline but ultimately, it is there for the raises to subban and price plus the replacement of gill and spacegoat.

not all that much when you think about it.

and im pretty sure goatse didn't sign any extra veteran this off-season as to leave some ice time to the kids. he signs madden now, who does he push off the roster? white? DD? for all the *****ing about martin and goat not giving enough ice time to the kids, not a lot of thought was spent into that argument


Last edited by Crimson Skorpion: 09-14-2011 at 05:26 AM. Reason: Merged
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Old
09-14-2011, 08:23 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
People were crying and *****ing and moaning about OB until the moment he got traded. then when they saw the return he got, turned around and *****ed about that.

he sucked here and is only getting ice time in colorado because they are ****ing awful.

oh, and that 4 mil will go to a rental at the deadline but ultimately, it is there for the raises to subban and price plus the replacement of gill and spacegoat.

not all that much when you think about it.

and im pretty sure goatse didn't sign any extra veteran this off-season as to leave some ice time to the kids. he signs madden now, who does he push off the roster? white?[B] DD?[/B] for all the *****ing about martin and goat not giving enough ice time to the kids, not a lot of thought was spent into that argument
True...if Madden signs (and who knows how much gas he has left in the tank) it will be a slap to DD or maybe even Eller...no? Management is giving the confident ''tap on the back'' to Darche, Eller, DD, White. (at least for the first 10-15 games!!).
Winchester (if a Hab) may join Blunden as 13th or 14th forward!! (waiting for an injury to happen to a 3rd or 4th line player).

The only one who has to move DOWN (from 1st or 2nd lines) to the 3rd line is...A.Kostitsyn!!
But, with Eller...that's not a demotion, that is a chance to help the team with 3 offensive lines (Moen can add defence to that line OR you can go with DD for an ''all-offense'' line).

But what about Dmen? How about one more dman? (a proven #4 or #5 dman? a proven minute-cruncher to help Subban and Gorges save some energy before playoffs). Then again...management is probably gonna see how Yemelin and Weber do...


I'm just worried (very!) about Markov's fragile body (arms, legs, knees, shoulders, wrists, back,etc,etc...). Either he has become one of the most jinxed dmen in the last 3 seasons or he his body has become extremely fragile. Either way...not good.

Without Markov:
Gill - Subban
Gorges - Weber
Yemelin - Spacek
----------- --------------
Diaz
Woywitka

-----------------------------------------------------------

With a Bryan McCabe (for example):
Gill - Subban
McCabe - Gorges
Yemelin/Spacek - Weber


p.s.: I'm not a McCabe fan, but who else is available...now? So we can maybe keep our 2nd Rnd Draft Pick. McCabe...4 mil last year, so he might ask for 3 mil this year? (give him 2mil for 1 year + we keep our 2nd Rnd Draft Pick).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 09-14-2011 at 08:28 AM.
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Old
09-14-2011, 08:29 AM
  #133
HCH
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
That would be a good approach pre-lockout. Today the rosters are more cemented, parity preventing a clear picture of which teams may be out of contention for playoff spots and what players may shake loose. And in getting those players you need to trade future assets which are quite valuable to this organization now.. The argument for a Madden type signing in September is that it is relatively free depth.
If Madden is a depth player why would we look at him when most agree that our needs are either a top 6 forward or a top 4 defenseman?

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09-14-2011, 08:42 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
If Madden is a depth player why would we look at him when most agree that our needs are either a top 6 forward or a top 4 defenseman?
A couple of reasons:

1) A top 6 forward is not as easily within reach and takes assets to acquire. This is also why the at-the-deadline approach is an expensive route to take year after year.

2) the depth player is plan B and protects against the injuries to existing top 6 forwards.

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09-14-2011, 09:25 AM
  #135
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If Madden is a depth player why would we look at him when most agree that our needs are either a top 6 forward or a top 4 defenseman?
My main concern is Markov's health, injuries, fragile body (slow at healing but fast at picking up his paycheck!), etc. We always have to find someone (last minute) to replace him while losing 2nd Rnd Draft Picks. Markov could help us in the regular season OR could make us scramble again in finding a replacement in the middle of the season...oy ve what a headache this injury-prone Markov!


Forwards...looks good to me, imo:
top 4 wingers
1.Cammalleri (with Pleks)
2.Cole (with Pleks)
3.Gionta (with Gomez)
4.Pacioretty (with Gomez)
5.Kostitsyn (as extra since he does well with Eller, hope he doesn't pout with Eller)
6.DD (can play top 6 winger in case of injuries)


Centers...best center depth (imo) since...?:
Plekanec
Gomez (I expect 50pts, and a strong playoff performance)
Eller (35pts+?)
DD (40pts+ if he gets top 9 winger ice-time)


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 09-14-2011 at 09:41 AM.
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09-14-2011, 10:53 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
If Madden is a depth player why would we look at him when most agree that our needs are either a top 6 forward or a top 4 defenseman?
Why would we need a top 6 forward? We just added one this summer and we have AK potentially playing 3rd line, that's 7 top 6 calibre forwards.

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09-14-2011, 12:43 PM
  #137
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My biggest concern is still to add a top 4 D and the last bonafide one to be available was back in early July.

I'm still hoping Habs know what they have with Emelin and hoping Spacek can dominate again on the left side.

But besides that, IF Markov and Subban stay healthy the whole season, that available cap space will make us even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
My main concern is Markov's health, injuries, fragile body (slow at healing but fast at picking up his paycheck!), etc. We always have to find someone (last minute) to replace him while losing 2nd Rnd Draft Picks. Markov could help us in the regular season OR could make us scramble again in finding a replacement in the middle of the season...oy ve what a headache this injury-prone Markov!
before 30 months ago, Markov was rarely ever injured.

before April 2009, he missed only 36 of the 531 previous games since his first full season (including playoffs).

He played 60 of the 198 games after that injury (game #78 vs Leafs (08-09), was slated to miss only three weeks) and without Price skating over Markov's heel and cutting it at the beginning of the next season, we'd only be talking of something very recent, where Markov would've missed only close to a full season (75 games), +18 playoff games, from a major knee injury that happened on April 30th 2010, just 17 months ago.


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09-14-2011, 01:13 PM
  #138
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http://www.985sports.ca/hockey/nouve...-ch-96523.html

Gauthier in this article talks about the cap space

C'est un fait connu que le directeur général du CH a quelques dollars en poche pour améliorer son équipe. Comme l'an dernier quand il est allé chercher James Wizniewski, Gauthier sera patient avant de profiter de ses réserves au plafond salarial.

«J'ai de l'argent en mains, mais je n'irai pas tout dépenser maintenant. On verra comment la saison se développera.»



He basically said that he has some money in his hands, but he wont go ahead and spend it all now. We'll see how the season develops.

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09-14-2011, 01:33 PM
  #139
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The Habs D is fine in theory...

Markov-Gorges
Spacek-Subban

Solid top 4 with a potential all star on the ice for up to 50 minutes a game.

Bottom pairing is between Gill, Emelin, Weber to fight for the 5-7 spots, and maybe Woywitka or Diaz making a case for one of those roster spots too (or NHL capable injury reserve in the AHL at least).

There are risks of course... Markov's health #1. I think Spacek will have a bounce back year on the left side, but who can say for sure, he could go through rough stretches. I don't like the Gill resigning, guy is barely a NHL player, overrated cuz he is popular & Subban covered up a lot of his screw ups, but I guess the Habs didn't have much of a choice with the far superior Hamrlik insisting on a 2 year contract (which he got). Gill on the 3rd pairing will be much more exposed with a non all-star partner. The rookies Emelin and Weber may surprise, but are more likely to struggle with ups & downs.

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09-14-2011, 01:37 PM
  #140
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We seriously need Carey to come and tell us to chill out. I think we are overly panicking. Season is not even started; let's see what are the leaks before calling the plumber.

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09-14-2011, 01:50 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by whysomad View Post
The Habs D is fine in theory...

Markov-Gorges
Spacek-Subban

Solid top 4 with a potential all star on the ice for up to 50 minutes a game.

Bottom pairing is between Gill, Emelin, Weber to fight for the 5-7 spots, and maybe Woywitka or Diaz making a case for one of those roster spots too (or NHL capable injury reserve in the AHL at least).

There are risks of course... Markov's health #1. I think Spacek will have a bounce back year on the left side, but who can say for sure, he could go through rough stretches. I don't like the Gill resigning, guy is barely a NHL player, overrated cuz he is popular & Subban covered up a lot of his screw ups, but I guess the Habs didn't have much of a choice with the far superior Hamrlik insisting on a 2 year contract (which he got). Gill on the 3rd pairing will be much more exposed with a non all-star partner. The rookies Emelin and Weber may surprise, but are more likely to struggle with ups & downs.
Spacek is seriously underated here. He had some rough stretches but overall he lead the regular defensemen with a 1.95 goals against average on even strength and didn't play soft minutes either. He doesn't look all that great but the other team just plain doesn't score when he's on the ice.

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09-14-2011, 01:52 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by whysomad View Post
The Habs D is fine in theory...

Markov-Gorges
Spacek-Subban

Solid top 4 with a potential all star on the ice for up to 50 minutes a game.

Bottom pairing is between Gill, Emelin, Weber to fight for the 5-7 spots, and maybe Woywitka or Diaz making a case for one of those roster spots too (or NHL capable injury reserve in the AHL at least).

There are risks of course... Markov's health #1. I think Spacek will have a bounce back year on the left side, but who can say for sure, he could go through rough stretches. I don't like the Gill resigning, guy is barely a NHL player, overrated cuz he is popular & Subban covered up a lot of his screw ups, but I guess the Habs didn't have much of a choice with the far superior Hamrlik insisting on a 2 year contract (which he got). Gill on the 3rd pairing will be much more exposed with a non all-star partner. The rookies Emelin and Weber may surprise, but are more likely to struggle with ups & downs.
Have to agree with this. If Markov is healthy, then having him on one pair and PK on another means excellent 1st passes to the forwards for a majority of the game, and increased puck possession as a trickle effect. Plus the power play will be pretty lethal and that should create room 5 on 5 for the forwards because the opposition may be hesitant to take penalties. Gill and Weber/Yemelin on the 3rd pairing with Gill carrying the load on the penalty kill with a slight decrease in his 5 on 5 ice time should keep him fresh towards the end of the season and heading into the playoffs where he's at his best.

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09-14-2011, 02:00 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
My biggest concern is still to add a top 4 D and the last bonafide one to be available was back in early July.

I'm still hoping Habs know what they have with Emelin and hoping Spacek can dominate again on the left side.

But besides that, IF Markov and Subban stay healthy the whole season, that available cap space will make us even better.



before 30 months ago, Markov was rarely ever injured.before April 2009, he missed only 36 of the 531 previous games since his first full season (including playoffs).

He played 60 of the 198 games after that injury (game #78 vs Leafs (08-09), was slated to miss only three weeks) and without Price skating over Markov's heel and cutting it at the beginning of the next season, we'd only be talking of something very recent, where Markov would've missed only close to a full season (75 games), +18 playoff games, from a major knee injury that happened on April 30th 2010, just 17 months ago.
Valid points, but that average hit that Grabovski gave Markov was ?? Markov looked so delicate on that play. And that E.Staal with Markov going into the corners? Again, Markov looked delicate.. I want to be wrong so I'll cross my fingers for Markov.
In other words...he better start delivering in the health department.

I want nothing more than for Markov to be healthy but I've been disappointed so many times by him and his body...I really want to be wrong 'cause our Habs need him (regular season AND playoffs).

Markov and Subban staying healthy for the entire season...I'd be one VERY happy Hab fan.
To be honest...it is crucial for us to have at least 2 out of these 3 to stay healthy and effective: Subban, Gorges, and Markov.

It's time for Markov to somehow stay healthy and show up for playoffs.
The 3rd pairing imo will be very important (hopefully minute crunchers) in helping Subban and Markov gain more rest on the bench (Gorges and Weber? Spacek and Gorges?). We know Markov can play 25min./game, but I'd try to save him (conserve energy) for playoffs. Give him all the PP time...no PK time (too risky). 18-20 minutes/game for Markov...no more than that (and don't put him out there against Matt Cookes, a Lucic, a E.Staal,etc...).

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09-14-2011, 02:01 PM
  #144
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We seriously need Carey to come and tell us to chill out. I think we are overly panicking. Season is not even started; let's see what are the leaks before calling the plumber.
I agree. I think we should be panicking just a little bit.

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09-14-2011, 02:02 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Spacek is seriously underated here. He had some rough stretches but overall he lead the regular defensemen with a 1.95 goals against average on even strength and didn't play soft minutes either. He doesn't look all that great but the other team just plain doesn't score when he's on the ice.
Can you try to help me. I don't know why but I remember Spacek as horrible 2 years ago. Last year, I remember thinking he was considerably more consistent and while he wasn't amazing, I wouldn't call it horrible.

Would you say that he played better in 20-11 than he did in 09-10?

idk but I find that too many people are painting him with the awful brush of 09-10 that wasn't nearly as bad last year.

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09-14-2011, 02:06 PM
  #146
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I agree. I think we should be panicking just a little bit.
Well, if we wouldn't be panicking a bit, we wouldn't be Habs fans..

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09-14-2011, 02:10 PM
  #147
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Can you try to help me. I don't know why but I remember Spacek as horrible 2 years ago. Last year, I remember thinking he was considerably more consistent and while he wasn't amazing, I wouldn't call it horrible.

Would you say that he played better in 20-11 than he did in 09-10?

idk but I find that too many people are painting him with the awful brush of 09-10 that wasn't nearly as bad last year.
09-10 he and Hamrlik were carrying the mail for most of the season on a team that overall was pretty terrible on even strength. This wasn't a job they really were up for but there was no one else in the lineup that could do it, except for maybe Gorges but he was doing his best to hold together an overmatched 2nd pairing. This year Montreal's defensive depth situation was far better even without Markov, largely because of Subban but Wisniewski's in Markov's absence also was key, as was improved forward depth making the team far better at even strength.

Basically Spacek looked bad because he was doing a job beyond his abilities as a player.

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09-14-2011, 02:11 PM
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Kriss E
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Originally Posted by RaMMuT View Post
http://www.985sports.ca/hockey/nouve...-ch-96523.html

Gauthier in this article talks about the cap space

C'est un fait connu que le directeur général du CH a quelques dollars en poche pour améliorer son équipe. Comme l'an dernier quand il est allé chercher James Wizniewski, Gauthier sera patient avant de profiter de ses réserves au plafond salarial.

«J'ai de l'argent en mains, mais je n'irai pas tout dépenser maintenant. On verra comment la saison se développera.»



He basically said that he has some money in his hands, but he wont go ahead and spend it all now. We'll see how the season develops.
Gauthier's such an imbecile..

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09-14-2011, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Can you try to help me. I don't know why but I remember Spacek as horrible 2 years ago. Last year, I remember thinking he was considerably more consistent and while he wasn't amazing, I wouldn't call it horrible.

Would you say that he played better in 20-11 than he did in 09-10?

idk but I find that too many people are painting him with the awful brush of 09-10 that wasn't nearly as bad last year.
He was worse in 09-10 I agree. I think a lot of it is due to playing RD. Some players can adjust to the switch a lot better from others (Gorges). By last season he was more used to it but I'm pretty sure he'd look a lot better as a LD.

I personally play LD and end up getting shuffled aften to RD because of too many LD, and I definitely find a lot of defensive plays much more difficult on the back hand. Many of Spacek's gaffes involve players along the boards where he's on his backhand as RD, which he could handle a lot better if he were on his forehand.

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09-14-2011, 02:22 PM
  #150
Mr. Hab
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Gauthier's such an imbecile..
Maybe he's waiting for a Bogosian or a Byfuglien

?!

(just dreaming!)


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 09-14-2011 at 02:32 PM.
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