Koivu might be the better player but I take Gomez over Koivu. What Gomez adds to this team chemistry and leadership wise is what we needed over Koivu. There is no doubt that Koivu is the better player at this point, that he tried harder but what he lacked in off ice leadership hurt the team. Gomez was central to building a winning attitude in the locker room. Along with Gill, he was crucial in developing the right attitude and work ethic among our young players such as PK, Price and Patches and DD.
When the Hawks won the cup, all the memes on HF became about Toews intangibles, well compared to Koivu, Gomez has all those intangibles. Those young players respected him last year because he had won the cup and he hadn't sucked yet, so they listened and learnt from him.
You don't get that with a quiet leader like Koivu. We needed that type of leadership BADLY on this team for a long time. With Koivu as our Captain, it prevented anyone else from taking that role.
Did you read the story about Gill and Gomez having a debate during their first year about what type of a system the team should play and how Gill eventually won out and everyone bought into it? If Koivu was here, do you think Gill would have overstepped his bounds and challenged a 13 year captain like Koivu like that? I don't.
Do you remember in their final year how the media made a HUGE deal out of Koivu & Kovalev finallying playing together. I remember at the start of the game, they asked Kovalev if there was a rift between them because that was the angle that the media was playing, why they were never tried before and Kovalev denied it and merely said more less that they don't have a problem but don't really speak. What kind of captain doesn't speak to his most talented player? I'm probably remembering slightly wrong but the jist of it is right.
How does gill over stepping Gomez attest to gomez superior leadership. Koivu was a fine leader, leading on the ice with work ethic and commitment far outweighs words in a dressing room. The fact is, koivu had no one to play with for most of his years here. I think koivu also trumps Gomez in leadership. Hal Gill is the dressing room leader, gomez is a funny guy who adds calming influence to the team for sure. Players probably wonder why they should take the word of a 7 goal performer seriously. I'm just kidding about the last part, but if I was Eller or ak being benched demoted and never having witnessed gomez being treated the same for worse performance, I would be wondering
Koivu played every game with his heart on his sleeve and did everything in his power for the habs. He was the heart and soul, but had nothing to work with. Anaheim fans consider him to be the most underrated on his team and one of the most underrated in the league. I think the same things were true when he was here, under appreciated mainly because he was the only bright spot on a bad team.
As far as koivu/kovalev not talking to one another, what an overblown pile of crap. What about a coach who doesn't speak to his players?
How does gill over stepping Gomez attest to gomez superior leadership. Koivu was a fine leader, leading on the ice with work ethic and commitment far outweighs words in a dressing room. The fact is, koivu had no one to play with for most of his years here. I think koivu also trumps Gomez in leadership. Hal Gill is the dressing room leader, gomez is a funny guy who adds calming influence to the team for sure. Players probably wonder why they should take the word of a 7 goal performer seriously.
I'm just kidding about the last part, but if I was Eller or ak being benched demoted and never having witnessed gomez being treated the same for worse performance, I would be wondering
Well how come under Koivu's leadership we've had a tonne of problems with our young players being developed? Koivu was the leader of the team when we had a locker room riff. He was here when SK was first brought up, Lats, Lappierre, Ribeiro, Ryder, Higgins, all went on to not achieve their potential here and have attitude problems.
Now we bring in Scott Gomez, guess what happens, he boots SK off the team more less and it sends a message. Now you have Patches and DD saying how Gomez was pivotal in them getting acclimated to the NHL.
I don't recall anyone saying that about Koivu.
The fact of the matter is your not AK or Eller and I doubt they "wonder' becuase even if Martin doesn't communicate enough, I'm sure Gionta, Gill, Pleks, Gomez are all talking to Eller enough. Eller has enough to worry about DD stealing his job to worry about Gomez getting preferential treatment. Your attitude is exactly why your not in the NHL, why poor me, why is he getting better treatment, instead of worrying about your own game and forcing the team to play you, that's what winners do.
AK is a goner next year at this point and it doesn't really matter.
Well how come under Koivu's leadership we've had a tonne of problems with our young players being developed? Koivu was the leader of the team when we had a locker room riff. He was here when SK was first brought up, Lats, Lappierre, Ribeiro, Ryder, Higgins, all went on to not achieve their potential here and have attitude problems.
Higgins and Ryder both hit career scoring highs with the Habs. Not sure what you thought their potential was, but in my view they had successful careers in Montreal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy
Now we bring in Scott Gomez, guess what happens, he boots SK off the team more less and it sends a message.
Really? I only read about SK getting harsh words from Price, nothing about Gomez. Would love to see a link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy
Now you have Patches and DD saying how Gomez was pivotal in them getting acclimated to the NHL.
Well how come under Koivu's leadership we've had a tonne of problems with our young players being developed? Koivu was the leader of the team when we had a locker room riff. He was here when SK was first brought up, Lats, Lappierre, Ribeiro, Ryder, Higgins, all went on to not achieve their potential here and have attitude problems.
Now we bring in Scott Gomez, guess what happens, he boots SK off the team more less and it sends a message. Now you have Patches and DD saying how Gomez was pivotal in them getting acclimated to the NHL.
I don't recall anyone saying that about Koivu.
The fact of the matter is your not AK or Eller and I doubt they "wonder' becuase even if Martin doesn't communicate enough, I'm sure Gionta, Gill, Pleks, Gomez are all talking to Eller enough. Eller has enough to worry about DD stealing his job to worry about Gomez getting preferential treatment. Your attitude is exactly why your not in the NHL, why poor me, why is he getting better treatment, instead of worrying about your own game and forcing the team to play you, that's what winners do.
AK is a goner next year at this point and it doesn't really matter.
Seems to me you're giving Gomez credit for things he had very little to do with. SK was a **** with gomez and koivu. Neither had anything to do with him being moved though, but even if we assume Gomez is in charge of personnel changes, which is quite comical to be honest, was getting rid of a young 20-25 goal scorer for nothing a positive? If Gomez was responsible for this, I like him even less, but I think you and I both know that wasn't the case.
Many rookies had plenty of good things to say about koivu, the fact you ignored them, doesn't mean much. Most team mates say good things about one another, nothing earth shattering or shocking here.
The reason why I'm not in the NHL is because I'm nowhere near good enough and never put in any effort to become better. Little to do with a poor me attitude, I was never interested in becoming a pro hockey player, my lack of a NHL career has everything to do with me never having any aspirations to do so, it takes a commitment that few understand. Not one I was willing to give.
BTW the lats, laps stuff happened after koivu left. The team misused lats and that had very little to do with Saku. No way saku had anything to do with laps situation, and Ribeiro wasn't his fault either, management gave him away for a bag of peanuts. You've speculated a lot, but have failed to come up with anything that says koivu was a poor locker room guy.
Seems to me you're giving Gomez credit for things he had very little to do with. SK was a **** with gomez and koivu. Neither had anything to do with him being moved though, but even if we assume Gomez is in charge of personnel changes, which is quite comical to be honest, was getting rid of a young 20-25 goal scorer for nothing a positive? If Gomez was responsible for this, I like him even less, but I think you and I both know that wasn't the case.
You've speculated a lot, but have failed to come up with anything that says koivu was a poor locker room guy.
I never said Koivu was a poor locker room guy. I merely said Gomez is considerably better.
As for Gomez and SK, it was a well documented fact that they got into an arguement at a team party and the next day he was sent to the AHL and that was the beginning of the end for SK. So feel free to hate Gomer more now.
I never said Koivu was a poor locker room guy. I merely said Gomez is considerably better.
As for Gomez and SK, it was a well documented fact that they got into an arguement at a team party and the next day he was sent to the AHL and that was the beginning of the end for SK. So feel free to hate Gomer more now.
So in your mind it's a sign of Gomez's leadership skills that he managed to fight with a rookie which led to the rookie being demoted to the AHL and eventually shipped out of town for nothing... only to then join another team, fit right in just fine with their leadership group, lead them in scoring, and then help them go deeper into the playoffs than the habs...
maybe i'm missing something, but what part about Gomez fighting with rookies makes him a good leader/locker room guy?
Koivu might be the better player but I take Gomez over Koivu. What Gomez adds to this team chemistry and leadership wise is what we needed over Koivu. There is no doubt that Koivu is the better player at this point, that he tried harder but what he lacked in off ice leadership hurt the team. Gomez was central to building a winning attitude in the locker room. Along with Gill, he was crucial in developing the right attitude and work ethic among our young players such as PK, Price and Patches and DD.
Koivu is respected league wide for his strength/leadership and could have gotten a spot on almost any team he wanted when he was a FA, gomez is a leaguewide punchline to a joke that stopped being funny a long time ago.
No one other than blatant homers take gomez over Koivu. Koivu wouldn't have been laughing on the bench while his buddies got their faces smashed.
So in your mind it's a sign of Gomez's leadership skills that he managed to fight with a rookie which led to the rookie being demoted to the AHL and eventually shipped out of town for nothing... only to then join another team, fit right in just fine with their leadership group, lead them in scoring, and then help them go deeper into the playoffs than the habs...
maybe i'm missing something, but what part about Gomez fighting with rookies makes him a good leader/locker room guy?
That should just about sum up that lunacy. BTW team Finland seemed to think pretty highly of him as well.
Gomez is hands down the worst of them,replacing Kiovu who is clearly a better player and single handedly crippled the Cap space for years .Major bust .
You can't use the cap space argument when we aren't even close to the ceiling.
you can't use the cap space argument when we aren't even close to the ceiling.
Sure you can. Our team may be a lot different than it is now with 4million to spend during gomez's first year, just because we're in a slightly better situation now, doesn't negate the fact that we had a better player at 1/2 the price.
Well how come under Koivu's leadership we've had a tonne of problems with our young players being developed? Koivu was the leader of the team when we had a locker room riff. He was here when SK was first brought up, Lats, Lappierre, Ribeiro, Ryder, Higgins, all went on to not achieve their potential here and have attitude problems.
Now we bring in Scott Gomez, guess what happens, he boots SK off the team more less and it sends a message. Now you have Patches and DD saying how Gomez was pivotal in them getting acclimated to the NHL.
I don't recall anyone saying that about Koivu.
Ryder was a 8th round pick i cant seeing him not reaching his potential. He had two 30 goal seasons with the habs i dont know what you expect of a 8th rounder but that is certainly overachieving IMO.
so in your mind it's a sign of Gomez's leadership skills that he managed to fight with a rookie which led to the rookie being demoted to the AHL and eventually shipped out of town for nothing... only to then join another team, fit right in just fine with their leadership group, lead them in scoring, and then help them go deeper into the playoffs than the habs...
how much you want to bet Scott Gomez will have more success than your hero Koivu in the playoffs over the next 5 years?
I'll bet anything and everything. I'll also admit that Gomez will be riding the coattails in that success but he knows where the winning team is, Koivu knows mediocrity.
Want to bet to disagree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy
how much you want to bet Scott Gomez will have more success than your hero Koivu in the playoffs over the next 5 years?
I'll bet anything and everything. I'll also admit that Gomez will be riding the coattails in that success but he knows where the winning team is, Koivu knows mediocrity.
Want to bet to disagree?
I will even bet that Getlaf, Ryan and Perry will have all had more success at the end of their careers on teams that didn't include Koivu compared to the teams that included Koivu.
on the ice
Koivu > Gomez ainec
but leadership wise and building a team wise
I still say
G>K.
Last edited by Mike8: 09-11-2011 at 10:48 PM.
Reason: merge
how much you want to bet Scott Gomez will have more success than your hero Koivu in the playoffs over the next 5 years?
I'll bet anything and everything. I'll also admit that Gomez will be riding the coattails in that success but he knows where the winning team is, Koivu knows mediocrity.
Want to bet to disagree?.
I don't get it. Are you suggesting that 32-year old Scott Gomez will have more success in the next 5-years than 36-year old Saku Koivu? Hmmm . . .
How about the fact that Koivu's ppg rate in the playoffs is vastly superior to Gomez's over the span of their respective NHL careers?
And what exactly does any of this have to do with Miller Time's post, which directly responded to your previous points regarding Koivu's leadership skills--and rendered those points utterly wrong and misguided? Why not address those issues, rather than skip to others when shown to be wrong and inconsistent in your assessment of this impossible-to-assess leadership skill?
Well how come under Koivu's leadership we've had a tonne of problems with our young players being developed? Koivu was the leader of the team when we had a locker room riff. He was here when SK was first brought up, Lats, Lappierre, Ribeiro, Ryder, Higgins, all went on to not achieve their potential here and have attitude problems.
What?? SK, Latendresse, Higgins all played their best hockey as a Habs on Koivu's line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy
how much you want to bet Scott Gomez will have more success than your hero Koivu in the playoffs over the next 5 years?
I'll bet anything and everything. I'll also admit that Gomez will be riding the coattails in that success but he knows where the winning team is, Koivu knows mediocrity.
Want to bet to disagree?
I
Oh wow your a smart guy.
Let me see... Koivu is approaching 37, slowed down with cancer, getting close to retirement.. while Gomez is only 32 and still have a lot of hockey in him. I think you might be right. yeah..
Edit: Koivu was captain for the Habs for 10 years, was the captain of team Finland and now is an assistant captain in Anaheim. What is wrong in this world.. All those managers can't see this guy has leadership problem? Thank god we have an lockeroom insider on HFboards that can tell that Koivu has poor leadership, especially with the young players.
Last edited by Mike8: 09-11-2011 at 11:40 PM.
Reason: merge
What?? SK, Latendresse, Higgins all played their best hockey as a Habs on Koivu's line.
I love Koivu more than anyone, but I would say Lats played his best while on Lang's line, although he did play well with koivu, especially in his rookie year.
how much you want to bet Scott Gomez will have more success than your hero Koivu in the playoffs over the next 5 years?
I'll bet anything and everything. I'll also admit that Gomez will be riding the coattails in that success but he knows where the winning team is, Koivu knows mediocrity.
Want to bet to disagree?
I will even bet that Getlaf, Ryan and Perry will have all had more success at the end of their careers on teams that didn't include Koivu compared to the teams that included Koivu.
on the ice
Koivu > Gomez ainec
but leadership wise and building a team wise
I still say
G>K.
?
did I even mention Koivu in this thread?
and frankly, my biggest beef with Koivu back in the day was that he wasn't, imo, a particularly good "leader" or at the very least, not as good as some habs fans wanted to credit him, and i had a variety of debates on that subject.
as far as leadership goes, I wouldn't try to argue that Koivu is clearly "better than Gomez", but that's more a reflection of Koivu than it is of Gomez being particularly good.
Nothing I've seen or read about Gomez gives me the impression that he's a good leader. that he won a few cups on a stacked Devils team, where he was anything but a leader, doesn't mean anything.
he bombed badly in his leadership role in NY, and nothing I've seen or read indicates to me that he's a particularly effective/important leader in the current habs team... not any more so than any veteran with multiple cup rings is/should be.
both Gomez and Koivu had run in's with young pompous teammates, but at least with Koivu he had a long/consistent track record of making his (younger and/or less skilled) linemates better.
in that regard, Koivu was/is a FAR better "leader" than Gomez is.
5 years from now?
how the hell is that even remotely relevant to anything at all?
give Koivu the career opportunity that Gomez walked into, and I wouldn't be surprised if NJ had won even more, and if Koivu had recorded multiple 80+ pt seasons.
Koivu got Savage, Zednik, Ryder, Rucinsky and cancer...
Koivu was a better player, has been a better player in the 2 years since we chose Gomez over Koivu/Higgins/McDo/4M$ cap space, but you are right, in 5 years from now, when Gomez is mercifully no longer with the habs, he will quite likely be enjoying more "success" than the retired koivu
Ok thinking about this and I've decided I want to re-word on why I prefer Gomez over Koivu at this point. Everyone keeps mentioning how hard Koivu works and how much better Koivu is, I have never denied that, I always agreed that Koivu was better in that regard. Koivu also made the players on his line better.
But what I like in a leader is someone who does more than Koivu. I want a teacher and that is what Gomez has done. He's been pivotal in teaching our young kids to be professionals. While Koivu made the players better when they played with him, Koivu didn't give them the tools to succeed without him. He didn't instill in them that they need to work hard to succeed in the NHL.
We were lacking that the entire time Koivu was here. It simply wasn't in his personality, its not who he was. The same thing with Gionta, he would really suck as a captain if he didn't have Gill and Gomez supporting him.
I think the C should be more than just skill or working hard. I think you need leadership to push the entire team and make them work harder. Its why I respect Chris Pronger, every year he seems to make his team better come playoff time. Look what happened last year when he was injured, they flopped. But he's had a tonne of success in the playoffs and it isn't luck.
But what I like in a leader is someone who does more than Koivu. I want a teacher and that is what Gomez has done. He's been pivotal in teaching our young kids to be professionals. While Koivu made the players better when they played with him, Koivu didn't give them the tools to succeed without him. He didn't instill in them that they need to work hard to succeed in the NHL.
We were lacking that the entire time Koivu was here. It simply wasn't in his personality, its not who he was. The same thing with Gionta, he would really suck as a captain if he didn't have Gill and Gomez supporting him.
I think the C should be more than just skill or working hard. I think you need leadership to push the entire team and make them work harder. Its why I respect Chris Pronger, every year he seems to make his team better come playoff time. Look what happened last year when he was injured, they flopped. But he's had a tonne of success in the playoffs and it isn't luck.
This just feels like fiction to me. Like you're wanting to argue.
Gomez was out of shape last year. I like Gomez, but he was not in good shape. Now somehow that translates to being a good leader; someone who's able to teach others what it means to be a professional athlete. This is crazy talk: being out of shape is the epitome of non-professional.
Koivu, and players of his ilk, inspire others to be consistent hard-workers and professional through his effort-level and through demonstrating those very traits in his own approach to the game.
What's peculiar to me is that you seem to acknowledge that a group of core leaders is essential (noting the Gionta, Gomez, Gill trio), and yet you don't seem to link that to the fact that every team requires a leadership core. There is no singular leader that can step up and motivate. Rather, there always exists a core group of leaders who must be on the same page, must be respected by others, and then they can successfully lead. I don't believe Koivu ever had a group of leaders around him that could constitute a strong leadership core.
...
Further, the blame you decide to place on Koivu for the unprofessional attitudes of some young players is bizarre. He isn't their mother. He can't babysit them. He hasn't raised them. Some athletes are bad apples. No leader can put all of their players in line. It's why specific players get tossed out of organisations--even great organisations. Sean Avery was dumped because Detroit didn't want to deal with his attitude. And Detroit tried with him: they roomed him with Shanahan, and they had a plethora of great leaders on that club.
For you to claim that Koivu's linemates never could attain the same success later in their careers and, consequently, claim that this is evidence that Koivu didn't teach them how to be professionals: nonsense. It's more a testament to Koivu playing with substandard players and making them look better than they were.
This just feels like fiction to me. Like you're wanting to argue.
How is it trying to argue if I changed the wording of what I was trying to say to be more specific to explain how I feel? Sounds more like I was trying to be accomodating to the different viewpoints to the posters who keep replying with "well Koivu put up more points" as a rebuttal to an arguement when I agreed with that.
How is it trying to argue if I changed the wording of what I was trying to say to be more specific to explain how I feel? Sounds more like I was trying to be accomodating to the different viewpoints to the posters who keep replying with "well Koivu put up more points" as a rebuttal to an arguement when I agreed with that.
All you have done is speculate about how you feel without any real evidence to suggest you're right. Gomez was there in NJ, nothing more. He was equally bad in NY as he is here, and a great point by mike8, he showed up here out of shape.
All you have done is speculate about how you feel without any real evidence to suggest you're right. Gomez was there in NJ, nothing more. He was equally bad in NY as he is here, and a great point by mike8, he showed up here out of shape.
When did he show up here out of shape? Do you have any proof?
When you think of our current teams leadership who do you think of? I think of Gill, Gio and Gomez. To a lesser extent Gorges and Markov, maybe add in PK. Think back to the Koivu era and who do you think of as leaders? Koivu. There in lies the problem.
