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Blake Kessel signs ELC; Adam Mair has a tryout

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Old
09-14-2011, 09:34 PM
  #26
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I like the Mair tryout. If he turns out as well as Betts did for at least a year, it's a nice depth move.

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09-14-2011, 09:56 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
I like the Mair tryout. If he turns out as well as Betts did for at least a year, it's a nice depth move.
It won't be anything nearly as good or even in the same realm as the Betts tryout.

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09-14-2011, 10:33 PM
  #28
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Is this reality?



DEAL!

Imo, that would easily make Philly contenders again

Hartnell - Briere - Jagr
Van Riemsdyk- Giroux - Kessel
Voracek - Talbot - Simmonds
Rinaldo - Betts - Nodl


Pronger - Carle
Coburn - Timonen
Schenn - Meszaros

Gustafsson/Lilja
No thank you. I would not accept Phil Kessel in any trade, even if the Leafs threw in Luke to sweeten the pot....

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09-14-2011, 10:36 PM
  #29
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No thank you. I would not accept Phil Kessel in any trade, even if the Leafs threw in Luke to sweeten the pot....
Why not? He would be perfect with Giroux

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09-14-2011, 10:54 PM
  #30
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Don't like it. Would have rather given Couturier a chance to play >9 games with the big team, or at least wait until camp is over to sign their final roster player... But you know, Holmgren doesn't roll that way.
There is no problem here. We're going to have some guys who, after camp, are going to be expendable and told they have no future in the organization. Bourdon, Marshall, Harper and Legein are candidates to be waived like Lehtivuori was. I don't think their buy outs count against the NHL cap either, but if there is more info on this, I'd be happy to hear it.

Let's face it, if Marshall doesn't look any closer to being at least a call up this year, a change of scenery would do him good. I'm wondering if he has the brains to go with his ego. Bourdon has never been a good enough skater for the NHL, he was never actually a prospect. Legein had promise in Jr. but he's never got it back. If Harper can't crack the Phantoms and is ECHL bound again, he can go too, it ain't happening. Pither will get one more season.

There is nothing to panic about yet. If Homer and Lavy decide Nylander or Mair is making the team, or Couturier deserves his 9 games, there are lots of ways of getting rid of a couple contracts.

Couturier would be better off waiting until next year to sign, so he can get a big bonus too, instead of going the Larsson route.

Let's see who earns a spot on the roster at camp first, the rest will sort itself out.

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09-14-2011, 11:13 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
There is no problem here. We're going to have some guys who, after camp, are going to be expendable and told they have no future in the organization. Bourdon, Marshall, Harper and Legein are candidates to be waived like Lehtivuori was. I don't think their buy outs count against the NHL cap either, but if there is more info on this, I'd be happy to hear it.

Let's face it, if Marshall doesn't look any closer to being at least a call up this year, a change of scenery would do him good. I'm wondering if he has the brains to go with his ego. Bourdon has never been a good enough skater for the NHL, he was never actually a prospect. Legein had promise in Jr. but he's never got it back. If Harper can't crack the Phantoms and is ECHL bound again, he can go too, it ain't happening. Pither will get one more season.

There is nothing to panic about yet. If Homer and Lavy decide Nylander or Mair is making the team, or Couturier deserves his 9 games, there are lots of ways of getting rid of a couple contracts.

Couturier would be better off waiting until next year to sign, so he can get a big bonus too, instead of going the Larsson route.

Let's see who earns a spot on the roster at camp first, the rest will sort itself out.
You're exactly right. there are tons of expendable players on the roster. I myself am totally all for Couturier going back to dominating the Q to hone his 2-way skill and work on his skating.

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09-15-2011, 01:19 AM
  #32
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I dont think this is a bad move at all. 2 year deal, he will be in Adirondack for this season anyway. let him work on his game. If he doesnt work out move him out. He isnt going to be with the Flyers. Hes got things he needs to work on.
I still think we will do something to free up a contract. I dont think they are going to go into the season with 3 goalies in Adirondack which could open up a spot for someone else. I am not a fan of sticking Couturier on the 4th line with Superstar and Rinaldo on his wings. Adam Mair ****ing blows. He scored 1 goal last year. Of course it was against the Flyers.

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09-15-2011, 02:21 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SeanVT395 View Post
Don't like it. Would have rather given Couturier a chance to play >9 games with the big team, or at least wait until camp is over to sign their final roster player... But you know, Holmgren doesn't roll that way.
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
I'm not sure on this but - Couturier can play 8 games without an ELC and then be sent back to juniors - right?

Anyway - I firmly believe that if Couturier plays well and the GM feels he can handle a full NHL season - they will dump somebody else and fit him in. The ELC Kessel just got does not decrease his chances IMO.
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I suppose since he can't play in the AHL(right?), if the org isn't 100% sure he's NHL ready there's no point wasting an ELC year playing in the NHL too soon when he can develop a little more.
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
There is no problem here. We're going to have some guys who, after camp, are going to be expendable and told they have no future in the organization. Bourdon, Marshall, Harper and Legein are candidates to be waived like Lehtivuori was. I don't think their buy outs count against the NHL cap either, but if there is more info on this, I'd be happy to hear it.

Let's face it, if Marshall doesn't look any closer to being at least a call up this year, a change of scenery would do him good. I'm wondering if he has the brains to go with his ego. Bourdon has never been a good enough skater for the NHL, he was never actually a prospect. Legein had promise in Jr. but he's never got it back. If Harper can't crack the Phantoms and is ECHL bound again, he can go too, it ain't happening. Pither will get one more season.

There is nothing to panic about yet. If Homer and Lavy decide Nylander or Mair is making the team, or Couturier deserves his 9 games, there are lots of ways of getting rid of a couple contracts.

Couturier would be better off waiting until next year to sign, so he can get a big bonus too, instead of going the Larsson route.

Let's see who earns a spot on the roster at camp first, the rest will sort itself out.
Regarding Couturier: He still can sign an ELC and play nine games for the Flyers without counting towards the 50 contracts. His contract (if signed), like Noebels, counts once he played his tenth game. The bigger problem is making room under the cap for his contract, if his deal is the expected bonus-laden contract.

Regarding other contracts: They won't go away as easy as Lehtivuori's. There is one big difference, Marshall, Bourdon, whoever you think should leave, wants to play in the AHL, they will attend every mandatory camp, every trainings session and every game. Lehtivuori was invited to camp and assigned to the minors, he wasn't at camp and he isn't in Adirondack, he broke his contract and thats the reason they could release him.

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09-15-2011, 03:39 AM
  #34
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I dont think this is a bad move at all. 2 year deal, he will be in Adirondack for this season anyway. let him work on his game. If he doesnt work out move him out. He isnt going to be with the Flyers. Hes got things he needs to work on.
I still think we will do something to free up a contract. I dont think they are going to go into the season with 3 goalies in Adirondack which could open up a spot for someone else. I am not a fan of sticking Couturier on the 4th line with Superstar and Rinaldo on his wings. Adam Mair ****ing blows. He scored 1 goal last year. Of course it was against the Flyers.
Of course.

Isn't that how Jody Shelley got a contract? Oh wait. He scored TWO goals, didn't he?

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09-15-2011, 07:08 AM
  #35
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With Jody Shelley already on this roster, what purpose could Adam mair possibly serve?

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09-15-2011, 07:44 AM
  #36
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Politics politics politics.
I see more and more relatives of current NHL players, ex-players and coaches getting questionable NHL deals. A 6-th rounder who hasnt played a pro game in his career will get between $20k-50k as a signing bonus and then another $65k-100k playing in the A's. WOW!

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09-15-2011, 08:06 AM
  #37
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I'm confused here...

I don't know if I'm missing something but, he came here as a camp tryout correct? Why did we waste our newly opened, 50th contract on a tryout that hasn't even happened?

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09-15-2011, 08:50 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm confused here...

I don't know if I'm missing something but, he came here as a camp tryout correct? Why did we waste our newly opened, 50th contract on a tryout that hasn't even happened?
I assume they had planned on signing him, but invited him to a tryout to prevent another team from signing him while they freed up the space.

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09-15-2011, 09:52 AM
  #39
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I really don't mind this at all, for those worried about Couturier getting a contract, I'd rather the Flyers' staff send him back to junior with a freezer full of chicken and fish and a workout plan to add weight to his frame. He can come back next year when bonuses don't count towards the cap.

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09-15-2011, 10:32 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by hoopla View Post
Politics politics politics.
I see more and more relatives of current NHL players, ex-players and coaches getting questionable NHL deals. A 6-th rounder who hasnt played a pro game in his career will get between $20k-50k as a signing bonus and then another $65k-100k playing in the A's. WOW!
I think you're vastly overrating the role of politics. Much more relevant in this situation, is that Flyer scouts would have seen Kessel play a lot at UNH while they were watching JVR (which means, probably almost every game), so he would have been on their radar. He also skated at the rookie camp in July, so they saw enough of him there to warrant an AHL contract before camp. The scouts are pretty good at finding guys off the radar, I don't see why this doesn't apply. He clearly didn't see a future on the Island so he looked around.

The reason so many relatives are in the league isn't just politics. It has to do with their acclimation to the culture and understanding of the hard work it takes. Sons of players also have advantages other kids don't have (best camps, private instruction, access to ice time), but in this case, without knowing the history of their parents, it could just be that the Kessel boys are good athletes who chose hockey and excelled. Like the Schenns, Couturier and his father, etc. There is a combination of nature and nurture at play here. Bloodlines matter and so does environment.

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09-15-2011, 10:44 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
Regarding Couturier: He still can sign an ELC and play nine games for the Flyers without counting towards the 50 contracts. His contract (if signed), like Noebels, counts once he played his tenth game. The bigger problem is making room under the cap for his contract, if his deal is the expected bonus-laden contract.

Regarding other contracts: They won't go away as easy as Lehtivuori's. There is one big difference, Marshall, Bourdon, whoever you think should leave, wants to play in the AHL, they will attend every mandatory camp, every trainings session and every game. Lehtivuori was invited to camp and assigned to the minors, he wasn't at camp and he isn't in Adirondack, he broke his contract and thats the reason they could release him.
Thanks, Rick, I knew someone would know.

I'm sure that Bourdon and Legein will be asking out of their contracts once they get a good look at lovely downtown Trenton.....


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09-15-2011, 11:28 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
Regarding Couturier: He still can sign an ELC and play nine games for the Flyers without counting towards the 50 contracts. His contract (if signed), like Noebels, counts once he played his tenth game. The bigger problem is making room under the cap for his contract, if his deal is the expected bonus-laden contract.

Regarding other contracts: They won't go away as easy as Lehtivuori's. There is one big difference, Marshall, Bourdon, whoever you think should leave, wants to play in the AHL, they will attend every mandatory camp, every trainings session and every game. Lehtivuori was invited to camp and assigned to the minors, he wasn't at camp and he isn't in Adirondack, he broke his contract and thats the reason they could release him.
Awesome, thanks for the clarification

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09-15-2011, 11:31 AM
  #43
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Yes he's Phil's Brother.

http://eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=12176

Played with JVR at UNH for one season, and put up a PPG season from the blueline the year after JVR left. He then regressed last year.

He was drafted in the 6th round by NYI back in 2007 out of the USHL (same draft class as JVR).

He's a mobile, skilled defenseman. Once upon a time he was a forward. He was converted to defense. That should tell you quite a bit.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/blake_kessel

He's pretty, "meh." That 7.0 rating is a little generous.

It also means we're back at 50 contracts. (49)
What are you basing that he's "meh" on? How many game have you actually seen Kessel play in person? Obviously the Flyers based on the fact that they offered him an ELC deal, feel he has potential. And they want him in thier developmental system. I would bet that thier scouts and talent evaluators have seen him play more than you have.

That he was a Forward converted to defense, doesn't tell you anything. Not in any way to compare to to. But Mark Howe was a converted Forward to defenseman.

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09-15-2011, 12:30 PM
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With Jody Shelley already on this roster, what purpose could Adam mair possibly serve?
3rd line blossoming power forward

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09-15-2011, 12:33 PM
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I think you're vastly overrating the role of politics. Much more relevant in this situation, is that Flyer scouts would have seen Kessel play a lot at UNH while they were watching JVR (which means, probably almost every game), so he would have been on their radar. He also skated at the rookie camp in July, so they saw enough of him there to warrant an AHL contract before camp. The scouts are pretty good at finding guys off the radar, I don't see why this doesn't apply. He clearly didn't see a future on the Island so he looked around.

The reason so many relatives are in the league isn't just politics. It has to do with their acclimation to the culture and understanding of the hard work it takes. Sons of players also have advantages other kids don't have (best camps, private instruction, access to ice time), but in this case, without knowing the history of their parents, it could just be that the Kessel boys are good athletes who chose hockey and excelled. Like the Schenns, Couturier and his father, etc. There is a combination of nature and nurture at play here. Bloodlines matter and so does environment.
Point being that 2 million for a 6-th rounder with no pro experience is not warranted. I dont care who's son or brother you are. Pay-per performance environment is what matters.

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09-15-2011, 12:36 PM
  #46
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What are you basing that he's "meh" on? How many game have you actually seen Kessel play in person? Obviously the Flyers based on the fact that they offered him an ELC deal, feel he has potential. And they want him in thier developmental system. I would bet that thier scouts and talent evaluators have seen him play more than you have.

That he was a Forward converted to defense, doesn't tell you anything. Not in any way to compare to to. But Mark Howe was a converted Forward to defenseman.
yes, Blake Kessel is the next Mark Howe.
I have seen him play. He has got things he needs to work on. i think they signed him because we are thin at defensive prospects. Hes going to be in Adirondack this year anyway and probably next season.
and I have seen this guy play more then you have.

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09-15-2011, 12:38 PM
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Point being that 2 million for a 6-th rounder with no pro experience is not warranted. I dont care who's son or brother you are. Pay-per performance environment is what matters.
The Kessel deal is an ELC, so it is two way. The Flyer know that he's no where near NHL ready.

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09-15-2011, 01:26 PM
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What are you basing that he's "meh" on? How many game have you actually seen Kessel play in person?
Yes?

And why do you need to put the "in person" thing in there anyway? Did Holmgren ever see half of the players he's drafted and then signed in person?

I swear to god Holmgren must be ignorant.

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Obviously the Flyers based on the fact that they offered him an ELC deal, feel he has potential. And they want him in thier developmental system. I would bet that thier scouts and talent evaluators have seen him play more than you have.
Potential and ability are two different things.

The gave Klotz a contract. If I sat here and told you that giving contract to Klotz was a waste of our time, would you get pissed at me?

Either way, I'm not saying that giving a contract to Kessel is a waste. Right now though, he's a pretty "meh" player. He was a sixth rounder who had one outstanding year in college and wasn't even wanted by the Islanders (granted their defensive prospect pool is pretty clutch).

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That he was a Forward converted to defense, doesn't tell you anything. Not in any way to compare to to. But Mark Howe was a converted Forward to defenseman.
And how many other forwards were converted to defense and were too flashy to play competitive defense at the NHL level?

Saying one name that works does not excuses thousands of misses.

And I was using that reference to a converted forward to explain his play-style, not his likelihood of NHL greatness.

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09-15-2011, 01:53 PM
  #49
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Point being that 2 million for a 6-th rounder with no pro experience is not warranted. I dont care who's son or brother you are. Pay-per performance environment is what matters.
If he only plays in the AHL, he'll get what, $100K max? If he beats out Bartulis and Lilja for the #6 spot, he'll be a steal of signing and tremendous value for money.

He was brought to rookie orientation camp because the scouts liked.

He was signed and added to the NHL roster on the website because the organization likes him: http://flyers.nhl.com/club/roster.htm

He's listed with the top 8. Gustafsson is not....

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09-15-2011, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
yes, Blake Kessel is the next Mark Howe.
I have seen him play. He has got things he needs to work on. i think they signed him because we are thin at defensive prospects. Hes going to be in Adirondack this year anyway and probably next season.
and I have seen this guy play more then you have.
Question, using simple common sense, wouldn't you have to know how much I have seen him play, in order for you to know that you've seen him play more than I have?

Of course he has things to work on. What 22 year old defenseman coming out of College Hockey doesn't?


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Yes?

And why do you need to put the "in person" thing in there anyway? Did Holmgren ever see half of the players he's drafted and then signed in person?

I swear to god Holmgren must be ignorant.
I'm quite sure he's seen a lot of players the Flyers have drafted under his watch in person. And he also has a full stable of professional scouts and talent evaluators at his disposal.


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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Potential and ability are two different things.

The gave Klotz a contract. If I sat here and told you that giving contract to Klotz was a waste of our time, would you get pissed at me?

Either way, I'm not saying that giving a contract to Kessel is a waste. Right now though, he's a pretty "meh" player. He was a sixth rounder who had one outstanding year in college and wasn't even wanted by the Islanders (granted their defensive prospect pool is pretty clutch).
Much here that doesn't make much sense. Potential a lot of times is based on raw ability. So that is obviously incorrect. Give me something that backs up that he's a "meh" player. How many times have you personally seen him play? He was drafted by the Islanders, so they obviously wanted him at some point. So that is incorrect. Do you have the particulars as to why he didn't sign with the Islanders? Is a player not signing with a Club always the result of the team not wanting the player?


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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
And how many other forwards were converted to defense and were too flashy to play competitive defense at the NHL level?

Saying one name that works does not excuses thousands of misses.

And I was using that reference to a converted forward to explain his play-style, not his likelihood of NHL greatness.
You said that his being a converted defenseman from a forward tells a lot. It really doesn't. There are misses all over the place in talent evaluations. From 1st round picks on down. A players style of play can change. So your point that he's converted to a D man, really doesn't tell you anything. Why would the Flyers give a "meh" player the last contract spot they have currently? Obviously there's something there they like in his potential.

You still haven't given anything concrete to point out how he's a "meh" player.


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