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Sather and the Homegrown Rebuilding of the Rangers

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:01 PM
  #26
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Slats has two eras: pre-lockout and post-lockout. Had he joined the Rangers in February 2004 when he began selling off veterans for picks, followed by rebuilding from within, he would be near God right now. Honestly, if it were someone who was never a GM before February 2004 and was hired to replace Slats at the time, we'd call him the best GM in the league because of the yeoman's job he has done rebuilding a destroyed franchise from scratch.

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09-15-2011, 12:03 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
The haters will continue to hate.
The haters have every right to continue hating. Building a likeable team isn't winning, and winning is all that matters.

Neil Smith is a man that'll forever be remembered because he accomplished something significant. What the hell has Sather accomplished? What has he won? Explain to me why anyone who didn't become a fan of this team yesterday, should not dislike Sather?

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09-15-2011, 12:03 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post

he has failed to do to date is develop ANY homegrown franchise players. Not a single true star to build around.

How many Franchise players get drafted middle of the pack? Thats where they draft. Yes they blew it with Hugh but it happens. What about all the other years?

They got Lundqvist... obviously elite

Cherepenov was projected as a potential elite player.


Most of the elite franchise players on other teams came from top 5 picks. After that it appears to be very hard to get a bona fide elite player. Unless you are the Red Wings

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09-15-2011, 12:04 PM
  #29
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Let's just sew this conversation up.

Side A: He's a couple of positive things, but I cannot give him any real credit for anything until we see some results on the ice.

Side B: I appreciate what he's done lately in giving us fans some hope for the present and the future.

That about sum it up?

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:04 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
He deserves no such credit.

He has created the illusion that this team is headed in the right direction by hanging onto the younger players and allowing them to develop - some people have bought it hook line and sinker without the on-ice credentials to back it up as a successful plan.

In 11+ years he's produced teams that have:

-never finished above a 6th seed in the east
-won a grand total of 2 playoff rounds

Thats all you need to know right there.

Does a pessimist like me feel better about this team than years past? Sure. Fact of the matter is we have nothing to judge it against yet.

We only have the last 11 years, and his horrendous track record when it comes to actual results.
I've been watching for too long and am getting too old to feel good about things that cant be tangibly measured.
Yes what happenned 5 years agio on the ice certainly applies to now and certainly the team in 2000 reflect the culture of the organization an the on ice product. Good christ this is not a "Show me the hardware" post it's a "I can't separate a completely different roster in 2011 from the ones in 2000" post. I like how you can predict the bad using apparently what we have being ONLY 11 years most of which have nothing to do with the present but you claim to lack the ability to judge the future based on the performances of our current roster which if I'm not mistaken is really amazing for a bunch of 25 and unders with a sprinkle of vet here and there. But yes a team of 25 and unders certainly suck for not winning a cup by now...

Comparing the job done in the early 2000's to the job being done now is what seems to be the easy out despite how insanely wrong and nonsensical it is. I remember how it was all about certain guys never being more than 3rd liners...then never scoring more than a certain number...never making the NHL...never making the playoffs at all...yet all expectations have been beaten by this current group. Our expectations were below average and they achieved above average. Dub, Prust, Boyle, Cally, Girardi, Hank, Sauer, McD even a guy like Eminger ALL have vastly beat all of the defeatest talk around here yet people still hold to their ridiculous thought that this team can't possibly continue to improve into at least a contender. How blinded are you by 1940?

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09-15-2011, 12:05 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Aside from Lundqvist, you're absolutely correct. Still can't fully credit Sather for even drafting him, since he probably had no idea who he even was at the time.
Staal seems like a pretty awesome piece for a team to build around. Callahan seems like a player this team is building around with his identity. Jus' sayin'.

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09-15-2011, 12:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
I guess you cant make everyone happy...
You can for me. Its quite simple actually. You can do it by winning and establishing this franchise as a top-tier NHL team. Something Sather hasnt done in 11 years.

Is rattling of a bunch of homegrown players that have actually contributed to years of 6/7/8th seeds, missed playoffs, and early playoff exits supposed to convince me of something?

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09-15-2011, 12:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
This is one of the best young teams in the league..
LOL.

Some of you guys really kill me. What is this based on? I mean besides pulling it out of your ass?

You either dont watch enough of other young NHL'ers, or a super homer fan. Probably both if I had to guess.

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09-15-2011, 12:10 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Hank, Staal, Callahan. They all seem to be very good players any team would LOVE to have.

Dubinsky, Stepan, Anisimov, Sauer, McDonagh, Erixon. He had a hand in all of them.
Lundqvist is the only GEM in our franchise. He's the only legitimate Star. The rest are solid players, but only solid players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Slats has two eras: pre-lockout and post-lockout. Had he joined the Rangers in February 2004 when he began selling off veterans for picks, followed by rebuilding from within, he would be near God right now. Honestly, if it were someone who was never a GM before February 2004 and was hired to replace Slats at the time, we'd call him the best GM in the league because of the yeoman's job he has done rebuilding a destroyed franchise from scratch.
Sather's been a mess pre, and post lockout. Redden, Drury, Gomez, Brashear, Kotalik, I'm not going to keep going..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
How many Franchise players get drafted middle of the pack?
You'll be surprised how many above average NHL players weren't taken in the top-10. You don't have to draft that high to build a contender. How many lottery picks has Detroit had the last decade or two?

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You can for me. Its quite simple actually. You can do it by winning and establishing this franchise as a top-tier NHL team. Something Sather hasnt done in 11 years.

Is rattling of a bunch of homegrown players that have actually contributed to years of 6/7/8th seeds, missed playoffs, and early playoff exits supposed to convince me of something?
I understand results are everything to some people, but the same arguments can be made for stats mean everything. We all watch the games. Is everyone telling me that they don't feel this team has improved every year the past 3 years?

I can honestly say that this team is trending upwards and I feel that if the Rangers had had the significant injuries they had last season that they would have been able to finish much higher than they actually did.

Looking at the stats does it look like they got better? No. But watching the team develop and play I can tell you they did.

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09-15-2011, 12:12 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
LOL.

Some of you guys really kill me. What is this based on? I mean besides pulling it out of your ass?

You either dont watch enough of other young NHL'ers, or a super homer fan. Probably both if I had to guess.
Wow, what a joke of a post that was.....

So what type of input did you add to this conversation? Nothing. Showed your wisdom here....

Good debate though....

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:15 PM
  #37
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I guess my question to everyone is:

How many "Stars" are in the league?

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09-15-2011, 12:17 PM
  #38
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I feel like a lot of people forget Sather essentially had to go with a "youth movement." With the contracts handed out to guys like Drury, Gomez, etc. he had no choice but to play the young, CHEAP guys. He couldn't splash out for anyone else.

The only people that should get credit are Gordie and co.

And it's not like there's a pre and post-lockout Sather. Look at all the contracts he's handed out since the lockout. Gomez, Drury, Redden, Naslund, Kotalik, Boogaard (RIP) to name a few. All were horrendous. This was the first summer in his reign where there was not a bad contract doled out.

The only thing I give him credit for is not trading our homegrown guys in any boneheaded deals.

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09-15-2011, 12:18 PM
  #39
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The promise of success, and the stockpiling of "potential" will never outweigh the years that Sather spent spinning his wheels trying to buy himself a championship. You can point to the "homegrown core" all you like, but not all of us are willing to wipe the slate clean every summer or pretend like the last 10 years never happened.

Am I hopeful for this years team? Sure, but that doesn't mean I think Sather has done a "good job" by any stretch of the imagination.

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09-15-2011, 12:20 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
The haters have every right to continue hating. Building a likeable team isn't winning, and winning is all that matters.

Neil Smith is a man that'll forever be remembered because he accomplished something significant. What the hell has Sather accomplished? What has he won? Explain to me why anyone who didn't become a fan of this team yesterday, should not dislike Sather?
Neil Smith also made some of the worst managerial moves post-championship. He depleted the system severely and dealt away players that should have never been moved while also adding free agents we did not need.

Sather has made bad moves as well. We all know it. But he hired the right scouts and others along the way and has righted the ship. Am I going to fully credit him when he hasnt won anything yet? No. But c'mon the guy has done a much better job. To me it just sounds like a bunch of people who like to complain and are pessimistic.

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:21 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Wow, what a joke of a post that was.....

So what type of input did you add to this conversation? Nothing. Showed your wisdom here....

Good debate though....
Honestly, what do you want me to say to such a boneheaded proclamation - that the Rangers are "one of the best young teams in the league?"

In all likelihood, besides Erixon, this team wont be adding a single prospect that wasnt on the team that contributed to backing into the playoffs last season as a last minute 8th seed.

As has been the case with Sather, this team will live and die with his UFA signings - the only way he can achieve top-tier talent. If Richards and Gaborik bust out do you think our lovely little core that everyone is so excited about can carry that load?

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09-15-2011, 12:22 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The promise of success, and the stockpiling of "potential" will never outweigh the years that Sather spent spinning his wheels trying to buy himself a championship. You can point to the "homegrown core" all you like, but not all of us are willing to wipe the slate clean every summer or pretend like the last 10 years never happened.

Am I hopeful for this years team? Sure, but that doesn't mean I think Sather has done a "good job" by any stretch of the imagination.
But the argument was not about Sather's entire tenure. It was for this off-season and constructing THIS team.

It's like no one can give any credit to the guy because all they do is bring up 5-10 years ago.

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09-15-2011, 12:23 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Slats has two eras: pre-lockout and post-lockout. Had he joined the Rangers in February 2004 when he began selling off veterans for picks, followed by rebuilding from within, he would be near God right now. Honestly, if it were someone who was never a GM before February 2004 and was hired to replace Slats at the time, we'd call him the best GM in the league because of the yeoman's job he has done rebuilding a destroyed franchise from scratch.


Drury, Gomez, Redden, Brashear, Boogaard, Kotalik...yea best GM in the league.

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09-15-2011, 12:23 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The promise of success, and the stockpiling of "potential" will never outweigh the years that Sather spent spinning his wheels trying to buy himself a championship. You can point to the "homegrown core" all you like, but not all of us are willing to wipe the slate clean every summer or pretend like the last 10 years never happened.

Am I hopeful for this years team? Sure, but that doesn't mean I think Sather has done a "good job" by any stretch of the imagination.
Agreed.

I also think the homegrown core is vastly overrated by some people. Theres several reasons for that, but chief among them is its easy for anything to look like pure gold when comparing it to year's past.

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:24 PM
  #45
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This is the Rangers not the Yankees. There is a cap... you have to draft the players that make up the core of your team.

Crosby
Malkin
Backstrom
Ovechkin
Stamkos
Sedin
Sedin
Kane
Towes
Jumbo
Marleau
Iginla
Eric Staal

There's the elite... sure I left a few out but I bet all those guys were drafted in the top 10.

How often do you get a Marty St Louis or a Datsyuk. It happens but ya know what... thats our Henke.

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09-15-2011, 12:31 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Staal seems like a pretty awesome piece for a team to build around. Callahan seems like a player this team is building around with his identity. Jus' sayin'.
Neither Callahan nor Staal are superstars.

Like I said, we have a lot of young, likeable, solid players. Nothing untouchable though. No Weber, Doughty, Stamkos, Perry, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyStart View Post
Yes what happenned 5 years agio on the ice certainly applies to now and certainly the team in 2000 reflect the culture of the organization an the on ice product. Good christ this is not a "Show me the hardware" post it's a "I can't separate a completely different roster in 2011 from the ones in 2000" post. I like how you can predict the bad using apparently what we have being ONLY 11 years most of which have nothing to do with the present but you claim to lack the ability to judge the future based on the performances of our current roster which if I'm not mistaken is really amazing for a bunch of 25 and unders with a sprinkle of vet here and there. But yes a team of 25 and unders certainly suck for not winning a cup by now...

Comparing the job done in the early 2000's to the job being done now is what seems to be the easy out despite how insanely wrong and nonsensical it is. I remember how it was all about certain guys never being more than 3rd liners...then never scoring more than a certain number...never making the NHL...never making the playoffs at all...yet all expectations have been beaten by this current group. Our expectations were below average and they achieved above average. Dub, Prust, Boyle, Cally, Girardi, Hank, Sauer, McD even a guy like Eminger ALL have vastly beat all of the defeatest talk around here yet people still hold to their ridiculous thought that this team can't possibly continue to improve into at least a contender. How blinded are you by 1940?
I see a lot of words here, but no valid points regarding why anyone should applaud Sather for continuously failing year after year, for 11 season's now.

In ten years, twenty years, and fifty years from now, are you going to remember this team if it doesn't accomplish anything? If we continue to squeek into the playoffs and get ousted without making any noise, what does it matter?

Some people are pleased making 36K a year. Others, not so much. Some people are satisfied finishing at 4th or 6th place in a race. Others, not so much.

Some people are copacetic with mediocrity. Others, not so much. All you did was paint a picture about the things that matter to you with this franchise. What you didn't do, is pay any tribute by what other people rightfully care about. In this case, results.

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:32 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Honestly, what do you want me to say to such a boneheaded proclamation - that the Rangers are "one of the best young teams in the league?"

In all likelihood, besides Erixon, this team wont be adding a single prospect that wasnt on the team that contributed to backing into the playoffs last season as a last minute 8th seed.

As has been the case with Sather, this team will live and die with his UFA signings - the only way he can achieve top-tier talent. If Richards and Gaborik bust out do you think our lovely little core that everyone is so excited about can carry that load?
Just because there aren't "new" faces doesn't make them old though. Look at all of the "young" players on the roster:

Callahan
Dubinsky
Stepan
Wolski
Anisimov
Boyle
Prust
Staal
Sauer
McDonagh
Erixon?
MZA?

Just because they didn't add a ton of young players doesnt make the team old.

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Old
09-15-2011, 12:37 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Hank, Staal, Callahan. They all seem to be very good players any team would LOVE to have.

Dubinsky, Stepan, Anisimov, Sauer, McDonagh, Erixon. He had a hand in all of them.
And to date, all of them have amounted to exactly jack squat as a team. Why? Because role players and complimentary players alone don't form Stanley Cup contenders. Because you can't win a Stanley Cup when you can't fill the most important role on an NHL team: elite playmaker.

Quote:
Saying he isn't doing a good job now is biased from the first half of his reign with the Rangers. This is one of the best young teams in the league. Killing him because he works for an Original 6 Team who has money to spend is silly. The Rangers will always have money to spend. Richards was a player they felt they needed so they brought him in.
I think you're missing the point. Having money to spend is great. But before this summer, he's only shown that he has no idea how to spend that money. Richards wasn't a player that they felt they needed. Richards was a player that they DESPERATELY needed, and they had virtually no choice but to bring him in, because thanks to Sather's inability to develop homegrown franchise offensive players (something that nearly every contender in this league has on it's roster), the Rangers' only chance at becoming more than a bubble team any time in the near future rested solely in the hands of Richards. If Richards is not available this summer, or doesn't wish to come to the Rangers, this team is screwed for the foreseeable future. All of those great young players that every team would love to have (and that's certainly true) are not enough, and there are no other realistic options in the coming off-seasons to fill the glaring hole that Sather has never filled until the Richards signing.

Quote:
Some teams tank and draft the Stamkos' or the Kane's of the league. The Rangers don't tank and instead fill every other slot on their roster with home-grown players and add one or 2 pieces as they see fit.
And if you think this is a winning strategy...well, let's just say I disagree. I happen to think that because this team has Lundqvist, and because they have a particularly strong quality of role players, they'll have a pretty decent chance. I'm not knocking the players the team has produced lately. This strategy of teambuilding, however, is as stupid as virtually everything else Sather does. It makes no sense.

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09-15-2011, 12:38 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Just because there aren't "new" faces doesn't make them old though. Look at all of the "young" players on the roster:

Callahan
Dubinsky
Stepan
Wolski
Anisimov
Boyle
Prust
Staal
Sauer
McDonagh
Erixon?
MZA?

Just because they didn't add a ton of young players doesnt make the team old.
Doesnt make them one of the best either.

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09-15-2011, 12:41 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
The haters will continue to hate.
The haters choose to judge a GM on the success of the team.

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