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Sather and the Homegrown Rebuilding of the Rangers

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Old
09-15-2011, 02:25 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
I liken Sather to an artistic painter. He's gone out and procured the best brushes, paints, and canvases. He's brought in people who have a keen eye for supplies. He has all the tools to the produce a truly magnificent painting. But he has yet to paint a single stroke let alone a masterpiece. However, there are those who are willing to call him one of the best artists of the decade...because they like his brushes.
This is a great post.

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09-15-2011, 02:26 PM
  #77
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i find it ironic that the best player we have this early 2011-2012 season is a guy sather traded for.

he aint much for signing free agents (hopefully br19 changes that) and our drafting of impact players has been sketchy for sure, but damn can he make trades.

boyle, prust, mcdonough, vtank, w2, and even avery.... all aquired via trade.

and now tim erixon, the best player at the traverse tourny.

his trades have been solid...the rest, not so much.

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09-15-2011, 02:40 PM
  #78
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Let's be clear on something. General Managers and their scouts get paid to predict the future. They draft, trade for and sign players who they believe will help the team win a championship. If those players do not help the team win, then the GM is ultimately responsible for that failure.

Sather has been here for 11 years (10 seasons). In that time, we have made the playoffs 5 times and missed 5 times, never finishing higher than 5th in the conference. We have won 2 playoff series (not in the same year).

Now, I know the Sather apologists like to point out how much things have improved since the lockout. So in the interest of putting things in perspective, here is the results for each team since the lockout:

SCF = Stanley Cup Finals appearances
CF = Conference Finals appearances
SERIES = Playoff series wins
PO = Playoff appearances
PRES = President's Trophies
DIV = Division Titles

TeamCupsSCFCFSERIESPOPRESDIV
Detroit12311625
Pittsburgh1228501
Anaheim1127501
Boston1116402
Chicago1126301
Carolina1126201
Vancouver0116414
Philadelphia0126501
San Jose0027614
Buffalo0024412
Ottowa0114401
Montreal0013501
Washington0002414
New Jersey0002504
Edmonton0113100
Dallas0012301
Tampa Bay0012300
Rangers0002500
Nashville0001500
Colorado0002300
Calgary0000401
Minnesota0000201
Los Angeles0000200
Phoenix0000200
Atlanta0000101
Islanders0000100
Columbus0000100
St.Louis0000100
Toronto0000000
Florida0000000

I'm sure some will argue that the Rangers should be higher on this list, but how much higher? Certainly not in the top 14. We've been mediocre at best since the lockout. If you add in the numbers for Sather's entire tenure, it gets even worse.

Sather doesn't deserve credit because he has yet to actually accomplish anything. He gets paid to build winning teams. So far, he hasn't even come close.

Edit: Update to say the Rangers haven't finished higher than 5th rather than 6th in the conference.


Last edited by GAGLine: 09-15-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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09-15-2011, 02:47 PM
  #79
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Nitpicking, but the Rangers finished 5th in the East in 2008.

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09-15-2011, 02:52 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
I liken Sather to an artistic painter. He's gone out and procured the best brushes, paints, and canvases. He's brought in people who have a keen eye for supplies. He has all the tools to the produce a truly magnificent painting. But he has yet to paint a single stroke let alone a masterpiece. However, there are those who are willing to call him one of the best artists of the decade...because they like his brushes.
thats a cute little analogy but it doesnt actually work

first, sather doesnt coach or play...he's a general manager...his job is to assemble the pieces, moniter how they progress, and make changes when necessary, but at the end of the day hes not the one doing the "painting" as you describe...so your analogy actually paints a picture of him doing a good job (see what i did there? )

secondly, no one (in their right mind) is willing to call him the best anything of the decade

people are merely saying (or should be saying) that he has assembled what appears to be some good pieces at this point in time...and thats a fact, regaurdless of any history or anyones personal opinions on how the last decade has played out

theres nothing wrong with acknowledging a good move by someone that you're less than fond of. For instance: U2 sucks donkey nuts but Bloody Sunday is a decent song

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09-15-2011, 02:52 PM
  #81
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How is Sather supposed to draft a "franchise player" while continously being around 10-20 spot in the first round?

Trade to move up? Maybe

Tank a season? Heavens to bid. Everyone in the league including YOU the reader would be up in arms.

So go for it each year and hope for the best. But you end up 10-20 spot.

He got Lundqvist. Its not SATHER that does the drafting its the scouts and the head scouts tell the Gm who they believe would be best picked and where. Its up to Sather to either listen to them or go with their scouts from his last team. So Lundqvist is a Sather pick. Dont fool yourself.


If he bombed that pick, you would be busting his balls about it. So give the guy some credit.

I am not all high and mighty on the guy but I also know the team looks good right now and since 1997 I havent had squat to be proud of. Let me enjoy this right now.

Sheesh you pessimistic ********!

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09-15-2011, 02:59 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
So Lundqvist is a Sather pick. Dont fool yourself.
The scouts that recommended Lundqvist were all hired by Neil Smith. Sather has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And we got very, very lucky that a 7th round pick turned out as well as he did. If we had any inkling that he would be this good, you can bet he would have been drafted much higher.

Quote:
Sheesh you pessimistic ********!
It has nothing to do with pessimism. I'm as optimistic for this upcoming season as anyone. But I'm not going to say "Good job Glen" until I see the results, because results are what he gets paid for. Any other GM in any other sport would have been fired by now. I'm not going to pat him on the back just because the team looks good on paper.

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09-15-2011, 03:10 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
How is Sather supposed to draft a "franchise player" while continously being around 10-20 spot in the first round?
Henrik Zetterberg- 240th Overall

Pavel Datsyuk - 171st Overall

Ryan Getlaf - 18th Overall

Duncan Keith - 54th Overall

Martin St. Louid - Undrafted

Zach Parise - 17th Overall

Nicklas Lidstrom - 53rd Overall

Zdeno Chara - 56th Overall

Shea Weber - 49th Overall

Mke Richards - 24th Overall

Claude Giroux - 22th Overall

Corey Perry - 28th Overall

Ryan Kesler - 23rd Overall

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09-15-2011, 03:12 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
How is Sather supposed to draft a "franchise player" while continously being around 10-20 spot in the first round?
In 2003, we could have had any of the following players other than Hugh Jessiman:

Dustin Brown
Brent Seabrook
Zach Parise
Ryan Getzlaf
Brent Burns
Ryan Kesler
Mike Richards
Corey Perry

And that's just from the 1st round.

2nd round:

Loui Eriksson
David Backes
Patrice Bergeron
Shea Weber

One of the best drafts ever and our best player was Nigel Dawes.

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09-15-2011, 03:15 PM
  #85
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that 2003 draft still makes me sick

your COULDNT miss in that first round...and we did

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09-15-2011, 03:16 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
How is Sather supposed to draft a "franchise player" while continously being around 10-20 spot in the first round?

Trade to move up? Maybe

Tank a season? Heavens to bid. Everyone in the league including YOU the reader would be up in arms.

So go for it each year and hope for the best. But you end up 10-20 spot.

He got Lundqvist. Its not SATHER that does the drafting its the scouts and the head scouts tell the Gm who they believe would be best picked and where. Its up to Sather to either listen to them or go with their scouts from his last team. So Lundqvist is a Sather pick. Dont fool yourself.


If he bombed that pick, you would be busting his balls about it. So give the guy some credit.

I am not all high and mighty on the guy but I also know the team looks good right now and since 1997 I havent had squat to be proud of. Let me enjoy this right now.

Sheesh you pessimistic ********!
He stepped in a week before the draft and you're telling me he had Lundqvist in his back pocket waiting to get hired so he could nab him with the 7th round pick?

Genius.

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09-15-2011, 03:18 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
that 2003 draft still makes me sick

your COULDNT miss in that first round...and we did
That missed opportunity combined with the general lack of success prior that (look at the mind blowing number of players drafted by the Rangers who not only didn't play for the Rangers but never played in the NHL) set the franchise back at least 3 or 4 years. He need to get a player with that first pick — even if it was a safer pick with a lower ceiling than Jessiman.

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09-15-2011, 03:22 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Henrik Zetterberg- 240th Overall

Pavel Datsyuk - 171st Overall

Ryan Getlaf - 18th Overall

Duncan Keith - 54th Overall

Martin St. Louid - Undrafted

Zach Parise - 17th Overall

Nicklas Lidstrom - 53rd Overall

Zdeno Chara - 56th Overall

Shea Weber - 49th Overall

Mke Richards - 24th Overall

Claude Giroux - 22th Overall

Corey Perry - 28th Overall

Ryan Kesler - 23rd Overall

And how many of the others drafted in these positions became total flops?

As you know, I always advocate drafting high-risk, high-return players. But no, every time the draft rolls around, 80% of this forum gets a hard-on for the safest players available who also happen to have limited upside. Then people complain that we keep on drafting 2-3 liners.

Like I said many times before, the only way you can pull a first liner with a pick outside the top-10 and often top-5 is if 1) you either get very lucky because someone way, way overachieved to the point where nobody could have predicted it or 2) if you go for someone with the same upside as a top-5 pick, but who fell because he has a flaw such as small size, injury or another reason why he's not drafted in the top 5.

If you keep drafting guys like JT Miller, you'll keep getting 2-3 liners.

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09-15-2011, 03:26 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
And how many of the others drafted in these positions became total flops?
I don't understand the question. It was suggested that how could Sather find a franchise player drafting in the 10-20 range. The Ducks do. The Red Wings do it. The Flyers do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
As you know, I always advocate drafting high-risk, high-return players. But no, every time the draft rolls around, 80% of this forum gets a hard-on for the safest players available who also happen to have limited upside. Then people complain that we keep on drafting 2-3 liners.
I don't have a problem with drafting high-risk, high-return players. When it's at the right time. Coming off years of adding nothing in the draft, Sather had to get a player he knew would play in the NHL in 2003. You know a safe pick like Parise

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09-15-2011, 03:26 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Let's be clear on something. General Managers and their scouts get paid to predict the future. They draft, trade for and sign players who they believe will help the team win a championship. If those players do not help the team win, then the GM is ultimately responsible for that failure.

Sather has been here for 11 years (10 seasons). In that time, we have made the playoffs 5 times and missed 5 times, never finishing higher than 5th in the conference. We have won 2 playoff series (not in the same year).

Now, I know the Sather apologists like to point out how much things have improved since the lockout. So in the interest of putting things in perspective, here is the results for each team since the lockout:

SCF = Stanley Cup Finals appearances
CF = Conference Finals appearances
SERIES = Playoff series wins
PO = Playoff appearances
PRES = President's Trophies
DIV = Division Titles

TeamCupsSCFCFSERIESPOPRESDIV
Detroit12311625
Pittsburgh1228501
Anaheim1127501
Boston1116402
Chicago1126301
Carolina1126201
Vancouver0116414
Philadelphia0126501
San Jose0027614
Buffalo0024412
Ottowa0114401
Montreal0013501
Washington0002414
New Jersey0002504
Edmonton0113100
Dallas0012301
Tampa Bay0012300
Rangers0002500
Nashville0001500
Colorado0002300
Minnesota0000201
Los Angeles0000200
Phoenix0000200
Atlanta0000101
Islanders0000100
Columbus0000100
St.Louis0000100
Toronto0000000
Florida0000000
Dallas0012301

I'm sure some will argue that the Rangers should be higher on this list, but how much higher? Certainly not in the top 14. We've been mediocre at best since the lockout. If you add in the numbers for Sather's entire tenure, it gets even worse.

Sather doesn't deserve credit because he has yet to actually accomplish anything. He gets paid to build winning teams. So far, he hasn't even come close.

Edit: Update to say the Rangers haven't finished higher than 5th rather than 6th in the conference.
Dallas is on the list twice

last and above Tampa Bay

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09-15-2011, 05:05 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Henrik Zetterberg- 240th Overall

Pavel Datsyuk - 171st Overall

Ryan Getlaf - 18th Overall

Duncan Keith - 54th Overall

Martin St. Louid - Undrafted

Zach Parise - 17th Overall

Nicklas Lidstrom - 53rd Overall

Zdeno Chara - 56th Overall

Shea Weber - 49th Overall

Mke Richards - 24th Overall

Claude Giroux - 22th Overall

Corey Perry - 28th Overall

Ryan Kesler - 23rd Overall
If you are saying there is some sort of skill to throwing darts at a board and picking a name then there is no point in debating it. Fact of the matter is outside the top 5, even the top 3 you aren't going to land a franchise player unless you are extremely lucky and pick one of the names above. If everyone knew they were going to be that great they would have been drafted in the top 3 obviously.

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09-15-2011, 05:09 PM
  #92
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Regarding the topic of the thread, I'm in agreement with most on the "results = praise" front. Does the team look posied to be a strong, potential contender? Absolutely. Does Sather deserve credit before the team proves so, however? Absolutely not.

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09-15-2011, 05:21 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Dallas is on the list twice

last and above Tampa Bay
Thanks, I had missed Calgary. It's fixed now.

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Old
09-15-2011, 05:33 PM
  #94
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How are Erixon and McDonagh home grown?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Lundqvist
Staal
Callahan
Dubinsky
Girardi
McDonagh
Sauer
Stepan
Anisimov
Erixon
Del Zotto

Next year Kreider.

One could make the argument that Boyle is homegrown, as he wasn't really an NHL player till he came here.

Prust, as well.

Zuccarello may make it.

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09-15-2011, 06:08 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
The scouts that recommended Lundqvist were all hired by Neil Smith. Sather has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And we got very, very lucky that a 7th round pick turned out as well as he did. If we had any inkling that he would be this good, you can bet he would have been drafted much higher.



It has nothing to do with pessimism. I'm as optimistic for this upcoming season as anyone. But I'm not going to say "Good job Glen" until I see the results, because results are what he gets paid for. Any other GM in any other sport would have been fired by now. I'm not going to pat him on the back just because the team looks good on paper.
The man has proven zilch. One only has to look back at the coaches he has hired. What appears to have happened is that, upon Maloney's departure he scored with the hiring of Gordie Clark, and he has scored with the hiring of Torts (so far). He made some nice trades, but he does not get credit when the trades he made were to repair a dumb signing he has made. Let's see some results before I call the man successful. Based on results, he should have been canned before the lockout.

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09-15-2011, 06:26 PM
  #96
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How are Erixon and McDonagh home grown?
Erixon isn't homegrown, but to be fair McDonagh was in our system for over a year and a half before he debuted in the NHL, so saying the Rangers didn't have anything to do with his development isn't true.

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09-15-2011, 06:42 PM
  #97
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How are Erixon and McDonagh home grown?
How aren't they?

Both will have made their NHL debut as Rangers, and the Rangers are going to be the ones to develop them.

They're home grown.

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09-15-2011, 06:44 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Gemma View Post
If you are saying there is some sort of skill to throwing darts at a board and picking a name then there is no point in debating it. Fact of the matter is outside the top 5, even the top 3 you aren't going to land a franchise player unless you are extremely lucky and pick one of the names above. If everyone knew they were going to be that great they would have been drafted in the top 3 obviously.
Time to fire all the scouts I guess.

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09-15-2011, 06:52 PM
  #99
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09-15-2011, 07:03 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Time to fire all the scouts I guess.
That's not what I'm saying, 29 other teams passed on him at least 6 times before he was selected, same with Lundqvist. You do not do that if you have a sure fire can't miss prospect. It's a crapshoot, you can equate it to I go to Vegas play roulette and win big. Doesn't mean I'm an expert in the spinning wheel, it just means I'm extremely lucky and had a very good day. Detroit happen to be the big winner that day.

Do you really want to go through the list of players from the 7th round and see how many of them actually make it to the NHL let alone become a superstar?

A broken clock is also right twice a day.

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