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Roberto Luongo back to take care of ‘unfinished business’

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Old
09-15-2011, 01:30 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
I think you're underestimating how brutal the offense was. Like I pointed out above, Chicago won the cup with a goalie allowing more goals in the SCF than Luongo did (in 1 fewer game as well). But no team in the history of the NHL has won (or even lost for that matter) a 7 game series while scoring as few goals the Canucks did.

Or to put it more succinctly, Luongo allowed fewer goals than either cup finalist goalie in 09-10, while the Canucks goal scoring was so bad that it broke a 62 year old record for offensive futility in a playoff series. Luongo was sub-par in the final but the Canucks' offense was unprecedentedly and historically bad. We might go another 50 years before we see another team score that few goals in a 7 game series. Hell, we might never see it again; the last record stood up for over 6 decades.
True that.

Luongo definitively wasn't consistently good in the SCF, but come on - half of the roster was playing (or was out) with injuries, the team scored 1.14 goals per game (less than half of what the horribad Devils managed before Lemaire) and we're all blaming the goaltender?

And then people wonder why the city was a "goalie graveyard" for so long.

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09-15-2011, 02:11 PM
  #102
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Expectations have spiraled out of control. I will guarantee that if Luongo did leave and was replaced with the goalie de jour that it wouldn't be more than a season before the same posters where tearing their hair out over our goal tending situation all over again.

For any fan base to go into a season confident that they will win the cup is border line hubris. The best you can hope for is to not get killed with injuries and have a good shot come playoff time. Luongo give us that. If someone is expecting a guarantee that we will win the cup they are totally out to lunch.

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09-15-2011, 02:17 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Durr View Post
It still amazes me how people still defend Luongo. It reminds of how people still tried to defend Cloutier back in the day.

When you guys look back at all this, you'll feel just as stupid as those who tried to defend the last #1 goaltender that played here.
Not near the the same. Cloutier was at best an average journeyman goalie whose career was bad when he played for a bad team. Luongo played exceptionally well for a really bad team in the Panthers and likely should have won a Vezina and a Pearson in 2003-04 (nominated) while there as he played phenomenally in huge minutes while being vulcanized in the process.

How many Vezina. Pearson and Hart nominations did Cloutier accumulate? All-Star selections, Team Canada selections and gold medals? Play-off series wins?

Comparing Luongo and Cloutier is like comparing apples and orangutans.

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09-15-2011, 02:25 PM
  #104
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It took a while but chalk up another one in the column for the goalie graveyard that is Vancouver... at least in some of your minds.

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09-15-2011, 02:38 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Comparing Luongo and Cloutier is like comparing apples and orangutans.
Or Apples and Beach Balls

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09-15-2011, 03:31 PM
  #106
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Or Apples and Beach Balls
Obligatory images...




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09-15-2011, 03:37 PM
  #107
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Anyone who compares Cloutier to Luongo should be virtually tarred and feathered.

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Old
09-15-2011, 03:57 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Hungus View Post
Expectations have spiraled out of control. I will guarantee that if Luongo did leave and was replaced with the goalie de jour that it wouldn't be more than a season before the same posters where tearing their hair out over our goal tending situation all over again.

For any fan base to go into a season confident that they will win the cup is border line hubris. The best you can hope for is to not get killed with injuries and have a good shot come playoff time. Luongo give us that. If someone is expecting a guarantee that we will win the cup they are totally out to lunch.
People have no one to blame but themselves for expectations. We deserve every disappointment because we, as a collective, consistently set ourselves up for it. Every year, without fail. People are not even capable of differentiating between this year to past years, let alone one game to the last. No wonder people are so quick to jump to conclusions, we're not capable of analyzing years, games or even shifts separately.

It has to be some kind of mental disorder. Some people continually insist on blurring everything together made worse by the insatiable need to find the cause for why we're so upset. But heaven forbid they think it was because they set themselves up for it. Oh no, it must be someone else.

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Old
09-15-2011, 03:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Aquiace View Post
People have no one to blame but themselves for expectations. We deserve every disappointment because we, as a collective, consistently set ourselves up for it. Every year, without fail. People are not even capable of differentiating between this year to past years, let alone one game to the last. No wonder people are so quick to jump to conclusions, we're not capable of analyzing years, games or even shifts separately.

It has to be some kind of mental disorder. Some people continually insist on blurring everything together made worse by the insatiable need to find the cause for why we're so upset. But heaven forbid they think it was because they set themselves up for it. Oh no, it must be someone else.
Having followed the Canucks since they entered the NHL I have developed a basic approach... never expect too much and you will not be disappointed.

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09-15-2011, 04:14 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Aquiace View Post
People have no one to blame but themselves for expectations. We deserve every disappointment because we, as a collective, consistently set ourselves up for it. Every year, without fail. People are not even capable of differentiating between this year to past years, let alone one game to the last. No wonder people are so quick to jump to conclusions, we're not capable of analyzing years, games or even shifts separately.

It has to be some kind of mental disorder. Some people continually insist on blurring everything together made worse by the insatiable need to find the cause for why we're so upset. But heaven forbid they think it was because they set themselves up for it. Oh no, it must be someone else.
We're very much a "What have you done for me lately?" kind of group.

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09-15-2011, 04:26 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by AndyPipkin View Post
We're very much a "What have you done for me lately?" kind of group.
We're very much like drug addicts. People are addicted to the high of winning and the crash is too much to handle.

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Old
09-15-2011, 05:18 PM
  #112
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I think Luongo's issue is that he cares too much. The guy puts his heart on his sleeve and sometimes his emotions get the best of him. I think that is why some games he just can't regain his composure. We saw it in interviews, etc, etc.

Luongo, when on his game, is undoubtedly one of the best goaltenders in the league. His numbers are always impressive; However, it just seems to be that big game that can rattle him.

I have no problem moving forward with Luongo. The amount of criticism he gets is really uncalled for. Comments I've heard like "i can't believe some of you are defending him" make me want to rage punch my monitor. As aquiace said, it's unfortunate some fans can't see past one game at a time. Such irrational thoughts make me wonder how some of you even operate a computer.

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Old
09-15-2011, 07:11 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
The games we won he played well, he did not steal any of them.
The offense never had a chance to get back in the game to Luongo's brutal play.

No one is exclusively blaming him, but imo he was the single biggest factor. Although you can't really quantify the blame, just for argument's sake I'd venture to propose the following

Luongo - 30%
The offense - 20%
Injuries - 15%
AV - 15%
Thomas - 10%
NHL/Refs 10% - not for bias, but for bad calls, two of which standout: the Rome suspension and the Daniel misconduct

No one is solely pinning the blame on Luongo. But we aren't hiding from the fact that he was the single biggest issue for that last, and has been a huge problem in the playoffs for 3 years straight.
This right here is exactly why Luongo is here is here right now.

When he plays good he gets no credit but when he plays poor then it's all on him.

A goalie gives up 2 goals in 3 games and yet he didn't shine??

You have got to be kidding me. The fact is that without Luongo this series is over in 5 games at most. Luongo was the only reason we were even in this series. Sure he got lit up in Boston but it's not like the rest of the team showed up either.

Outside of a poor 1st period in game 6 the guys infront of him had enough time to take over the game and start scoring goals but nope none of that happened and yet people have the balls to give Luongo most of the blame?? Give me a ****ing break. The offence didn't show up PERIOD!!! Can you imagine going into a game thinking wow if I give up one goal we're ****ed.

I'm not suggesting that he doesn't deserve any blame but at the same time we were going to lose game 3 if he gives up 2 goals, game 4 if he gives up 1 goal, game 6 if he gives up 3 goals and game 7 if he gives up 1 goal.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter if he lose 8-1 or 2-1. A loss is a loss and the bottom line is our offence was pathetic. Even when you break down the 8 goals we scored 2 or 3 of them came when the game was over anyways.

For **** sakes our offence barely showed up during the playoffs. If it wasn't for the San Jose series I don't think we would have even averaged 2 goals a game throughout the playoffs.

Whether people want to admit it or not we got the finals BECAUSE OF LUONGO. If he doesn't give us good goaltending there's no way we're going to the finals. Sure he gave up some soft goals here and there but he limited the damaged enough to get us that far but offensively we were PATHETIC during the playoffs.

If we can figure out how to score more goals during the playoffs then as long as we stay relatively healthy I think we've got a great shot at winning the cup this year.

Sure Luongo isn't going to make every save and he shouldn't have to either. Thomas let in a few bad goals during the Tampa series but the difference was that his offence showed up and won him game 2 despite the fact he allowed 5 goals. If our offence showed up in either game 4 or game 7 we would have won the cup not Boston.

Bottom line is when we won in the playoffs it was mainly due to good goaltending and good defence play. Just think about this for a second. Of our 15 wins in the playoffs only 3 came by 2 goals or more (not including empty net goals). We won 12 one goal games. You need good goaltending and good defensive play to win those one goal games. If you don't have good goaltending there's no way you win those games.

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Old
09-15-2011, 07:31 PM
  #114
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I've already said my piece so there's no use going any further, but let me just reiterate something since some of you clearly can't read worth a damn: never did I compare Luongo and Cloutier in terms of pure ability. The only comparison I made between the two is the amount of apologists each goalie has had the benefit of having despite never delivering to what we all want to see happen with this team.

Capiche?

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Old
09-15-2011, 07:32 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
Anyone who compares Cloutier to Luongo should be virtually tarred and feathered.
I'd be in favour for sure.

That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You obviously show how little you know about Canucks hockey and specifically the WCE era if you can say something like that.

I think everybody knows my stance on Luongo's play in the Finals.

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09-15-2011, 08:09 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Not near the the same. Cloutier was at best an average journeyman goalie whose career was bad when he played for a bad team. Luongo played exceptionally well for a really bad team in the Panthers and likely should have won a Vezina and a Pearson in 2003-04 (nominated) while there as he played phenomenally in huge minutes while being vulcanized in the process.

How many Vezina. Pearson and Hart nominations did Cloutier accumulate? All-Star selections, Team Canada selections and gold medals? Play-off series wins?

Comparing Luongo and Cloutier is like comparing apples and orangutans.
These are extremely good points. People comparing Luongo to Cloutier goes to show just how much we take the Luongo for granted.

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09-15-2011, 09:01 PM
  #117
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What's wrong with the comparison?

If we're speaking of the playoffs, with Cloutier's career save percentage being something along the lines of 0.872, and Luongo in 4 out of his last 6 playoff series (Chicago and Boston last year, Chicago the two previous year's before that) with an almost identical save percentage, is it really that bad of a comparison?

These aren't small sample sizes, and they are quite similar statistically. Granted statistics don't tell the whole story, but they are revered as an objective source for comparison. I think it's a bit premature to exclude the possibility of comparison.

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09-15-2011, 09:02 PM
  #118
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If you can't see why it's an absurd comparison, there's really no use in going over it again and again.

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09-15-2011, 09:22 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
What's wrong with the comparison?

If we're speaking of the playoffs, with Cloutier's career save percentage being something along the lines of 0.872, and Luongo in 4 out of his last 6 playoff series (Chicago and Boston last year, Chicago the two previous year's before that) with an almost identical save percentage, is it really that bad of a comparison?

These aren't small sample sizes, and they are quite similar statistically. Granted statistics don't tell the whole story, but they are revered as an objective source for comparison. I think it's a bit premature to exclude the possibility of comparison.
That comparison makes about as much sense as comparing the Sedins to Matt Cooke or Trent Klatt simply because if you cherry pick their worst 5 or so of their last 10 series they have a similar playoff points/game to those guys. It's so fraught with ridiculousness that it doesn't merit serious discussion.

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09-15-2011, 09:45 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
What's wrong with the comparison?
If I had to go any further to explain it to you, I feel I might be wasting my time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
If you can't see why it's an absurd comparison, there's really no use in going over it again and again.
Pretty much this.

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09-15-2011, 10:02 PM
  #121
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Yeah, the Luongo, Cloutier comparison doesn't work. Mainly because with Cloutier, most were just hoping he'd step up and become that solid playoff performer...as he was for the most part during the regular season. As for the blame game, i'll start by saying i'm not a huge fan of Luongo's...never have been. I think he may be the most overrated goaltender of all-time. But to be fair that's mostly the media's fault, not his. When he got traded here from Florida, i said to a buddy at our annual hockey pool that he's the type of goaltender that's great in front of a team that's porous defensively...sees a ton of rubber..lots of shots, kinda like a Curtis Joseph. His save percentage made him look like a god there. He is a great regular season goalie..no question and he deserves credit for playing well in most of the playoff games he's had here. But his meltdowns and lapses are unreal. At one point during the run he consistently had the one-softy-per-game outings. Harmless shots or passes were going in from the corner...pucks would deflect in off his stick or someone's skate...you just can't expect to win with that type of goaltending. Fortunatly, the team was good enough on those nights despite the bad goals. While i think he played well the majority of the time, i do agree with an above poster who said he didn't steal MANY games. Most of the time, the boys in front of him did a great job keeping everything to the outside. There just weren't many of those earth-shattering, highlight reel, game saving saves. That's not a shot at him, just that the boys were playing a very tidy game in front of him...he didn't need to make them. In saying all that, you still gotta go with him this season. But play Schneider a bunch more games, rest Luongo as much as possible(whether he likes it or not) and if he falters at any time in the playoffs...don't hesitate...give the kid playing time...a start or two. You never know, next summer there may be a taker or two for Luongo especially since these first two years of his contract being eaten up are top heavy for the club in salary. More importantly, Schneider's got another year of experience under his belt, which hopefully includes a little more playoff action. On another note, I am sick of hearing about the injuries as a constant excuse...it's like an endless loop every off season. The game 6 and 7 i watched, obviously injured guys aside...there weren't many guys skating from what i could see...it looked pretty obvious and disturbing. They had two chances to get it done and a game 7 at HOME. Hopefully Gillis has an opportunity to add a player or two come deadline cause i think there is a heart problem with this team. This is an excellent team, that needed only one more win. If winning a Stanley Cup is every or most player's dream, you would've thought drive and determination could get them that last 'w'. I didn't see many player's tanks emptying in those last two games.

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09-15-2011, 10:15 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Masterofshyza View Post
Yeah, the Luongo, Cloutier comparison doesn't work. Mainly because with Cloutier, most were just hoping he'd step up and become that solid playoff performer...as he was for the most part during the regular season. As for the blame game, i'll start by saying i'm not a huge fan of Luongo's...never have been. I think he may be the most overrated goaltender of all-time. But to be fair that's mostly the media's fault, not his. When he got traded here from Florida, i said to a buddy at our annual hockey pool that he's the type of goaltender that's great in front of a team that's porous defensively...sees a ton of rubber..lots of shots, kinda like a Curtis Joseph. His save percentage made him look like a god there. He is a great regular season goalie..no question and he deserves credit for playing well in most of the playoff games he's had here. But his meltdowns and lapses are unreal. At one point during the run he consistently had the one-softy-per-game outings. Harmless shots or passes were going in from the corner...pucks would deflect in off his stick or someone's skate...you just can't expect to win with that type of goaltending. Fortunatly, the team was good enough on those nights despite the bad goals. While i think he played well the majority of the time, i do agree with an above poster who said he didn't steal MANY games. Most of the time, the boys in front of him did a great job keeping everything to the outside. There just weren't many of those earth-shattering, highlight reel, game saving saves. That's not a shot at him, just that the boys were playing a very tidy game in front of him...he didn't need to make them. In saying all that, you still gotta go with him this season. But play Schneider a bunch more games, rest Luongo as much as possible(whether he likes it or not) and if he falters at any time in the playoffs...don't hesitate...give the kid playing time...a start or two. You never know, next summer there may be a taker or two for Luongo especially since these first two years of his contract being eaten up are top heavy for the club in salary. More importantly, Schneider's got another year of experience under his belt, which hopefully includes a little more playoff action. On another note, I am sick of hearing about the injuries as a constant excuse...it's like an endless loop every off season. The game 6 and 7 i watched, obviously injured guys aside...there weren't many guys skating from what i could see...it looked pretty obvious and disturbing. They had two chances to get it done and a game 7 at HOME. Hopefully Gillis has an opportunity to add a player or two come deadline cause i think there is a heart problem with this team. This is an excellent team, that needed only one more win. If winning a Stanley Cup is every or most player's dream, you would've thought drive and determination could get them that last 'w'. I didn't see many player's tanks emptying in those last two games.
That's as good as a first post as I've seen, but the grammar nazi in me definitely wants you to break that up into smaller paragraphs.

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09-15-2011, 10:21 PM
  #123
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Thank you good sir and yes that is an abomination of grammatical horror...ahhh the 1st post.

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09-15-2011, 10:21 PM
  #124
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Since joining the Canucks(5 years) in the combined regular seasons only 1 goalie has more wins(Kipper by 3) and only 1 goalie has a better winning percentage(Nabokov lol), well 2 if you count Neimi, but he's only played 102 games to Lou's 331.

Only 2 goalies had more shutouts then Luongo, Brodeur and Lundqvist.
He has the 4th best GAA over that span and the 3rd best SA%.

In the playoffs over that span, you take a look at the winningest goalies and the only players to have noticeably better stats are Osgood and Thomas.

We are lucky to have Luongo.

Shame on you all

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09-15-2011, 10:24 PM
  #125
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Maybe it didn't look like the team was "emptying their tanks" in Game 7 because they were already running on fumes?

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