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09-16-2011, 09:35 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
on the pp, it does.... obviously.

and were gonna have to disagree on vtank.

hes the one guy im praying makes this roster outa camp. he played well enough last camp to make the team.

hes healthy now and looking for a job.
I don't think it does even on the Power Play.

Here's where my thinking on this is...

The Rangers need Del Zotto's ability to make the transition game a strength.

No body, not even Erixon, in the Rangers organization, has the ability to quickly get the puck up ice. No one sees the ice like him and has the ability to thread a pass from deep in the defensive zone to the neutral zone, on a consistent basis.

Del Zotto isn't THAT bad defensively. His deficiencies can be corrected with experience. He's not bad positionally. He's good with his stick, he's physical. He just makes some mishaps. And they become pretty glaring due to the fact he's a defenseman.

He will be fine.

Eminger is pretty much the same player as Valentenko, when Eminger is on his game, save the shot from the point. Erixon can shoot, Girardi can shoot, even Del Zotto can (if he gets it on net it could be more effective).

Sauer and McDonagh play the physical game better. They play the defensive game better.

Staal and Girardi are miles ahead.

Erixon is a smarter player and doesn't run out of position the way Valentenko does, to lay a hit. At age 23-24 Valentenko should be better at that by now. I somewhat question his hockey IQ as a defenseman.

Rangers need a guy like Del Zotto and need a guy like Erixon. They don't need a guy like Valentenko, they already have players that do what he does, better.

And I don't believe contractual issues will effect coaching decisions. Referring to his waiver status.

The guy that I feel would push Del Zotto is Kundratek, if anyone. Kundratek is a smarter player then Tank is.

But overall, I just don't believe Valentenko or Kundratek factor into the Rangers' long term plans. Other then depth in case of either injury or a player playing really badly.

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09-16-2011, 09:39 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
As usual, no respect for Valentenko. This team needs both puck distribution and physical presence on the blueline. At this point, however, especially with the addition of Richards and the likelihood of Erixon making the squad, they need the latter even more.

Making the argument that Valentenko isn't the right guy for the PP is fair, although it makes a lot of sense to me considering he'd be there for one purpose and one purpose only: his booming shot. However, it's really unfair to dismiss him from the possibility of making the team in general.
Its not a lack of respect as much as there are smarter, more talented players in the organization, some of which play a similar game, but do it better.

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09-16-2011, 09:52 AM
  #28
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http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...it_at_the_wjc/

He is playing either on the Russian first or second power-play unit. "He has a very hard point shot, he can be a threat on the power play," observed Timmins.


http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/pavel_valentenko

Valentenko has a big shot -- one that earned him hardest AHL shot honors in the 2007-08 season. He combines that with a physical game that borders on, but never crosses into, dirty play. Valentenko's been described as one of the most-hated players in the AHL and combines an ability to get under opponent's skin with the willingness to back it up

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ran...al-dynamo.html

He has a good shot, he plays physical, he’s not afraid to block shots, so I think he’s doing really good, if you ask me,” said Ruslan Fedotenko, who served as a translator today as Valentenko had a sore throat. “But I’m not the coach.”

Keeping Valentenko around tells you what the coach thinks, but John Tortorella also praised the blueliner.

The guy is just intriguing to me, and I’m getting to know him because I hadn’t seen him,” Tortorella said. “He stood in there, and we let a couple of tryouts (Garnet Exelby and Alexei Semenov) go before him, so we’ll see where it all goes.”

i like this guys chances to come outa camp as the 7th dman. he was close last year. he adds a dimension to this team that we lack. a punishing stay at home type with a mean streak who can bring it on the pp point.

erixon makes del zotto less important right now and gives mike time to learn the trade in hartford and be the first call up.

ask some hartford watchers about him too. i think many would agree he was steady and smart at the end of the season and in the playoffs. he looked ready to move up.

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Old
09-16-2011, 10:05 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Its not a lack of respect as much as there are smarter, more talented players in the organization, some of which play a similar game, but do it better.
Youre giving Del Zotto an awfully big pass regarding how bad hes been defensively. Not just last season, but his entire tenure with the big club.

I do agree that he needs experience, but that experience should start in the AHL.

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09-16-2011, 10:14 AM
  #30
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It may well be.

However, it doesn't change the fact that Del Zotto is a player they need. And Valentenko is a player they have an abundance of.

Erixon isn't even similar to Del Zotto. Erixon is cerebral.

Del Zotto is more of a seat of his pants type of player. That will take risks to create.

You can't have six of your starting six defensemen be so conservative. You need risk. You need a guy who can rush it, create, use the long pass out of the zone to head long a guy like Gaborik on the transition.

I don't agree 100% with the concept of "safe is death" but I don't believe you can win consistently if you don't have some risk takers, either.

Im not comparing the two, but what made Leetch a great player, was his ability to let go and take charge with the puck and do something out of the box with it.

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09-16-2011, 10:18 AM
  #31
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And im not giving him a pass. Im recognizing that some of his mishaps were magnified. And every little thing he did was under scrutiny.

You can't castrate a player like Del Zotto, to get his max potential.

You need to put a smart, cerebral, intelligent, safe player next to him, and let him play his game.

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09-16-2011, 10:29 AM
  #32
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I don't see Vtank making the team over MDZ unless MDZ has another collapse like last year.

Sure, Vtank has a better shot on the PP. But MDZ brings much more to the table during 5 on 5. We need a PMD bad. Someone who has a great pass and can provide offense at even strength. Not to mention MDZ can still PP a QB. All Vtank provides is a solid shot on the PP. Better defender than MDZ? Yeah. But we have plenty of good defenders. We can afford to have one roster spot taken up by a sub par defender that can provide offense.

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09-16-2011, 10:34 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The Rangers need Del Zotto's ability to make the transition game a strength.
In the long run, perhaps (although in the long run, I believe they'll fill that need with someone other than Del Zotto). But if Del Zotto simply isn't ready to do that job in conjunction with the rest of his duties, than you can't put him in just yet.

Quote:
Del Zotto isn't THAT bad defensively. His deficiencies can be corrected with experience. He's not bad positionally. He's good with his stick, he's physical. He just makes some mishaps. And they become pretty glaring due to the fact he's a defenseman.
Sorry, I disagree. I think his positioning is BRUTAL, as is his decision making. He's really, really bad in his own zone. I don't think he's even adequate with his stick, and his physicality is not properly applied. He doesn't understand how to play defense, and he thinks that hitting people is akin to playing good defense, so he takes himself out of a lot of plays to go for largely meaningless hits. The McIlrath syndrome, in other words.

Quote:
Eminger is pretty much the same player as Valentenko, when Eminger is on his game, save the shot from the point. Erixon can shoot, Girardi can shoot, even Del Zotto can (if he gets it on net it could be more effective).
Again, I don't agree. I don't think Eminger is anything like Valentenko. Eminger is a player who doesn't excel at anything and just does a little bit of everything adequately enough not to embarrass himself. Defensively, they are very different players. Valentenko is much stronger, and understands how and when to hit. He's also better positioned and less likely to try and play above his means like Eminger has been prone to doing. This team has a real problem this season if Eminger is one of the top 6 regulars. He's a #7 guy.

Quote:
Sauer and McDonagh play the physical game better. They play the defensive game better. Staal and Girardi are miles ahead.
Without a doubt, they are all better defenders, but none of them play the physical game in the way that Valentenko does. Also, you're just generally underrating Valentenko as a defender. He's quite solid, physically and otherwise.

I'm not really sure how Girardi is miles ahead, but then again, AFAIC, Sauer (and McDonagh will be, too) is a better defender than Girardi.

Quote:
Erixon is a smarter player and doesn't run out of position the way Valentenko does, to lay a hit. At age 23-24 Valentenko should be better at that by now. I somewhat question his hockey IQ as a defenseman.
That's not really what Valentenko does. That's what Del Zotto does, as I noted above. Valentenko is more like a blueline version of Fedotenko. He's a very strong and physical presence, but he understands how and when to use those tools, and he's able to keep that side of his game up his sleeve thanks to his ability to play a well positioned, stick checking defensive game, as well. Valentenko is a conservative player (and I mean that in a complimentary fashion, as over aggressiveness is usually the sign of a poor defensive player).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Its not a lack of respect as much as there are smarter, more talented players in the organization, some of which play a similar game, but do it better.
There is no one defenseman on the Rangers today that plays a game similar to Valentenko, IMO.

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09-16-2011, 10:42 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...it_at_the_wjc/

He is playing either on the Russian first or second power-play unit. "He has a very hard point shot, he can be a threat on the power play," observed Timmins.


http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/pavel_valentenko

Valentenko has a big shot -- one that earned him hardest AHL shot honors in the 2007-08 season. He combines that with a physical game that borders on, but never crosses into, dirty play. Valentenko's been described as one of the most-hated players in the AHL and combines an ability to get under opponent's skin with the willingness to back it up
All this praise about his shot, yet it seems to lead to very few goals. Actually, just 1 pp goal in his previous 2 full AHL seasons. Yet, you pencil him into your top unit in the NHL. Why?

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09-16-2011, 11:12 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
In the long run, perhaps (although in the long run, I believe they'll fill that need with someone other than Del Zotto). But if Del Zotto simply isn't ready to do that job in conjunction with the rest of his duties, than you can't put him in just yet.



Sorry, I disagree. I think his positioning is BRUTAL, as is his decision making. He's really, really bad in his own zone. I don't think he's even adequate with his stick, and his physicality is not properly applied. He doesn't understand how to play defense, and he thinks that hitting people is akin to playing good defense, so he takes himself out of a lot of plays to go for largely meaningless hits. The McIlrath syndrome, in other words.



Again, I don't agree. I don't think Eminger is anything like Valentenko. Eminger is a player who doesn't excel at anything and just does a little bit of everything adequately enough not to embarrass himself. Defensively, they are very different players. Valentenko is much stronger, and understands how and when to hit. He's also better positioned and less likely to try and play above his means like Eminger has been prone to doing. This team has a real problem this season if Eminger is one of the top 6 regulars. He's a #7 guy.



Without a doubt, they are all better defenders, but none of them play the physical game in the way that Valentenko does. Also, you're just generally underrating Valentenko as a defender. He's quite solid, physically and otherwise.

I'm not really sure how Girardi is miles ahead, but then again, AFAIC, Sauer (and McDonagh will be, too) is a better defender than Girardi.



That's not really what Valentenko does. That's what Del Zotto does, as I noted above. Valentenko is more like a blueline version of Fedotenko. He's a very strong and physical presence, but he understands how and when to use those tools, and he's able to keep that side of his game up his sleeve thanks to his ability to play a well positioned, stick checking defensive game, as well. Valentenko is a conservative player (and I mean that in a complimentary fashion, as over aggressiveness is usually the sign of a poor defensive player).



There is no one defenseman on the Rangers today that plays a game similar to Valentenko, IMO.

true.

but dylan mcilrath may well be the one guy who plays a game, or is supposed to play a game, similar to vtank. thats why he was drafted, to be that kinda impact physical player.

weve been told that big mac, potentially, fills a huge void for this organization. and i agree. young dylan would do very well becoming a quicker, more agile, more athletic version of vtank.

with dylan being atleast 2 years away, and with the focus being on his steady development into the player gordie clark envisioned he could be, it would make sense that we would give a fair shot to a guy like vtank- who seems to have many of the same attributes right now, that dylan might eventually bring to this team.

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09-16-2011, 11:35 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
All this praise about his shot, yet it seems to lead to very few goals. Actually, just 1 pp goal in his previous 2 full AHL seasons. Yet, you pencil him into your top unit in the NHL. Why?
Thank you. With all this talk of his cannon, what good is it if it never amounts to anything in the AHL, let alone the NHL?

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09-16-2011, 11:47 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
All this praise about his shot, yet it seems to lead to very few goals. Actually, just 1 pp goal in his previous 2 full AHL seasons. Yet, you pencil him into your top unit in the NHL. Why?
Semenov owned a 105+ mph blast as well.

Playing the point is about smarts, and if you use a shot, it has to get off fast. Valenteko really does not possess the tools to be a PP guy at any level.

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09-16-2011, 12:37 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
Semenov owned a 105+ mph blast as well.

Playing the point is about smarts, and if you use a shot, it has to get off fast. Valenteko really does not possess the tools to be a PP guy at any level.
You won't find many fans that believe more in the importance of intelligence than myself, but really, you don't need smarts to one time passes from one of the best passers in the league. That's pretty much the only thing that Valentenko would be doing on the power play.

Besides, why imply that Valentenko is not a smart player? He's no Lidstrom, but I think he's adequate in that regard, at least.

Perhaps some of the hardcore Pack fans can provide some thoughts as to his lack of success on the PP last season?

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09-16-2011, 01:12 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
You won't find many fans that believe more in the importance of intelligence than myself, but really, you don't need smarts to one time passes from one of the best passers in the league. That's pretty much the only thing that Valentenko would be doing on the power play.

Besides, why imply that Valentenko is not a smart player? He's no Lidstrom, but I think he's adequate in that regard, at least.

Perhaps some of the hardcore Pack fans can provide some thoughts as to his lack of success on the PP last season?
Its accuracy more than anything else. He lets them rip and his shots will create rebounds because they are normally low and hard and even if they miss the net they come off the end-boards.

IMO Valentenko should make the team this year. I thought he should have last year but I understand Sauer needed to stay. Valentenko was more than solid last year.

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09-16-2011, 01:15 PM
  #40
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But if Staal doesn't put up points then we can't put him in the elite class of defensemen. Bummer.

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09-16-2011, 01:22 PM
  #41
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Assuming he has a decent camp, with Sauer's issues, its possible all 3 of the kids (Erixon, MDZ, Vtank) all make the team out of camp.

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