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Old
09-16-2011, 08:51 AM
  #1
Luck 6
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Splitting up the Twins

At first, the very notion of this seems stupid. I agree, why split up two Art Ross winning twin brothers who likely have the best chemistry in the NHL? It makes sense, but there are other ways of looking at it aswell, and these ways relate specifically to the post season.

The Twins post season production isn't bad, they're both at just under a PPG pace. What this tells me is they don't really vammp their game up, but they don't play worse either. The point decrease is a result in playing the same defenders every night, and always playing the higher quality defenders of a playoff team. Let's take Datsyuk and Zetterberg for example, the anchors of Detroits championship team. They have amazing chemistry together, but when the scoring dries up they are separated to throw off the opposition. I propose we try something similar with the Sedins, I believe we have enough depth to do it effectively. Again, this is JUST in the postseason to throw a curve into other teams shut down plans. Why not try something like...

Sturm-Sedin-Samuelsson
Sedin-Kesler-Burrows

It brings an interesting dynamic. Re-unite the Sedins on the PP and 4v4. When this stops working, switch it back. I just don't think we gave teams enough looks last postseason and as a result our time line wasn't as effective. I want to see something like this experimented with in the regular season, and potentially used in the post season.

Thoughts?

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Old
09-16-2011, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
At first, the very notion of this seems stupid. I agree, why split up two Art Ross winning twin brothers who likely have the best chemistry in the NHL?
I agree wholeheartedly.

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Old
09-16-2011, 09:03 AM
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So you split up the Sedins to put Sturm and the god awful Samuelsson on the top line?

A big no from me. Best chemistry in the NHL between those 2 guys. No way do you split that up.

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09-16-2011, 09:14 AM
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Why is Sturm on the Canucks? No way is he going to play on the top lines.

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09-16-2011, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rappaport View Post
Why is Sturm on the Canucks? No way is he going to play on the top lines.
With both Raymond and Kesler out to start the season, there's a good chance he could.

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09-16-2011, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rappaport View Post
Why is Sturm on the Canucks? No way is he going to play on the top lines.
Sturm has scored over 20 goals in 7 of his last 9 seasons even with missing some games. Last season he was injured, and the other season he didn't reach the 20 goal mark he was on pace for over 30 goals. I see no reason why he can't score 20 in a high powered Vancouver offense. Sturm isn't a perimeter player, he is a legit top 6 forward. As long as he can get back to where he was before last seasons injuries I'd say he's atleast on par with Samuelsson.

I'm not proposing we split the Sedins up all season, I'm saying when the scoring dries up in the post season why not try it? They we're getting shut down and punished big time vs. Boston, it's not like splitting them op would hurt us further. And in my example, Kesler's line would likely be the "top line" which would give Henrik a lot of room to make things happen against weaker opposition.

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09-16-2011, 10:46 AM
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If the Canucks didn't have a bonafide 1st line talent in Kesler sitting in the #2 centre hole you could maybe entertain the idea. Considering the Canucks do have a star centering the 2nd line, it makes little sense. Why would you move a goalscorer in Daniel down to play with a goalscoring centreman when you have arguably the league's best playmaker sitting on the 1st line without adequate wingers?

The problem is Mike Gillis keeps failing at acquiring a bonafide talent for Kesler to work with. In 3 years the best forward Mike Gillis has been able to add to the stable is Mikael Samuelsson. That's your problem right there.

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09-16-2011, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
If the Canucks didn't have a bonafide 1st line talent in Kesler sitting in the #2 centre hole you could maybe entertain the idea. Considering the Canucks do have a star centering the 2nd line, it makes little sense. Why would you move a goalscorer in Daniel down to play with a goalscoring centreman when you have arguably the league's best playmaker sitting on the 1st line without adequate wingers?

The problem is Mike Gillis keeps failing at acquiring a bonafide talent for Kesler to work with. In 3 years the best forward Mike Gillis has been able to add to the stable is Mikael Samuelsson. That's your problem right there.
You don't know how things will work until you try them. The idea of putting Burrows with the Sedins was ludicrous before we tried it, and Kesler playing on the 1st PP unit and having no real centerman for the 2nd unit is another example. Sometimes things don't look like they'll work on paper, but for some reason they just do... That's all I'm saying...

Maybe I'm completely off the mark here, and the outcome of such a move would be awful. This is why I propose we try it for a couple of stretches in the regular season, just to see how it COULD work. If nothing else, it gives us an added option for the post season should the Sedins be unable to produce again.

Vs. Boston we had NO offense. Yes the goalie was good, but our forwards were bad. Our 1st line was getting shutdown hard by Chara/Seindenberg, and our 2nd line was playing hurt. As a result, we had NO offense. And furthermore, we had no answer. We had no plan B. What I'm propsong here is a potential plan B.

I'm in the group that believes the Sedins are PPG players when playing apart as long as their given decently talented players to play with. If as a pair they're being shutdown effectively, why not try spreading it out? Think outside the box, the most obvious answer isnt always the best answer. I'm shocked so many people are against trying this.

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09-16-2011, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
If the Canucks didn't have a bonafide 1st line talent in Kesler sitting in the #2 centre hole you could maybe entertain the idea. Considering the Canucks do have a star centering the 2nd line, it makes little sense. Why would you move a goalscorer in Daniel down to play with a goalscoring centreman when you have arguably the league's best playmaker sitting on the 1st line without adequate wingers?

The problem is Mike Gillis keeps failing at acquiring a bonafide talent for Kesler to work with. In 3 years the best forward Mike Gillis has been able to add to the stable is Mikael Samuelsson. That's your problem right there.

You're right, Gillis has failed to address the issue of the 2nd line. Kesler will again be on an island this year. Part of that is due to Gillis, but part of that is also due to Kesler as well. He plays a more selfish game now than when he was feeding Raymond the puck for assists. He's got to change that and learn to better work with his wingers.


Samuelsson may not be the perfect compliment to Kesler, but he is a legit 2nd line winger. Raymond and Higgins range from 2nd line to 3rd, and Sturm is a complete wildcard at this point. Point being, with the players that are here it's up to Kesler more so than his wingers to find a way to be effective. Yes, he is a 1st line talent. But even elite players have to change their game somewhat to fit their line. So far, Kesler hasn't done that - which is remarkable in itself because if he improves in this area look out.


On the Twins: A bonus to shuffling D.Sedin to work with Kesler is that the latter gets one of the two best playmakers on the team to work with. It really comes down to how often they are split up. If it's for a shift every few games, then that's not so bad. I'm more concerned about the Twins' defensive play. They must improve that this year. When their scoring takes a hit in the playoffs, at least they can rely on their Dzone work to see them through. This would mean less starts in the offensive zone, and perhaps some shifts on the PK. Hope it happens.

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09-16-2011, 11:37 AM
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We've seen what happens when they're split up. It doesn't boost our offense. To boost our offense, you stack the line with Kesler. That's when the magic happens.


Last edited by Aquiace: 09-16-2011 at 11:44 AM.
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09-16-2011, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquiace View Post
We've seen what happens when they're split up. It doesn't boost our offense. To boost our offense, you stack the line with Kesler. That's when the magic happens.
The last time we split them up was years ago, they were 75 pt players back then and not elite franchise level players. Henrik scored at a PPG pace without Daniel while facing the other teams top defensive assignments, you don't think he may be able to fair better than that if Kesler and Daniel draw the tougher assignment? It baffles me that so many people are against trying this...

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09-16-2011, 11:52 AM
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In preparing for the playoffs, near the end of the season I would do it here and there to see what kind of chemistry different lines have... just in case AV needs to explore that avenue. I wanted to try this in the Chicago series where they were basically going head to head with the top D pairing in the league.

I wouldn't do it for the whole game... maybe just every third shift or so to throw off the other coaches game plan.

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09-16-2011, 12:08 PM
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Dear God
Please let the season start

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09-16-2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
The last time we split them up was years ago, they were 75 pt players back then and not elite franchise level players. Henrik scored at a PPG pace without Daniel while facing the other teams top defensive assignments, you don't think he may be able to fair better than that if Kesler and Daniel draw the tougher assignment? It baffles me that so many people are against trying this...
Henrik had (off the top of my head) 18 points in 18 games without Daniel.

He had 94 points in 64 games with Daniel.

Why do people think this is a good argument?

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Old
09-16-2011, 12:46 PM
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And I thought we'd go a whole off-season without a "split up the twins" thread.

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Old
09-16-2011, 12:53 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Henrik had (off the top of my head) 18 points in 18 games without Daniel.

He had 94 points in 64 games with Daniel.

Why do people think this is a good argument?
Because Henrik didn't have 94 points in 64 PLAYOFF games. In the playoffs when you're facing the same team every night for a grueling series, sometimes you need to throw a curve ball at them. I'm not saying this will definitely work and be effective, I'm saying I want to see if it would work. If it did, it's just another weapon we can take advantage of.

I don't see why we can't talk about this and analyze it logically instead of throwing out sarcastic comments every other post.

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Old
09-16-2011, 01:08 PM
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Vancouver_2010
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I guess it could work, how about giving Hodgson a chance while Kesler and Raymond are out?

Strum-H.Sedin-Burrows
D.Sedin-Hodgson-Samuelsson

Just a word of advice: You do not have to post in a topic that you don't like, there is an ignore button for threads too.

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Old
09-16-2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
You don't know how things will work until you try them.
The twins have been the most productive line in the NHL at even strength when paired with Alex Burrows. IMO that's where this conversation ends.

Is there really a chance they improve upon the stagging, league leading numbers they've put up together 5 on 5? I wouldn't bet on it.

Now, making the twins do a little more heavy lifting during the regular season with less offensive zone starts I'm on board with. Getting them focused on shutting down opposing stars and playing a solid two-way game could serve the team well come playoff time when the matchups get more difficult.

I would even like to see Vigneault load up the top line with the Sedins and Kesler at even strength from time to time. That trio would be a nightmare for the opposition, Kesler is more than capable of double shifting and if Lapierre can handle PK minutes it'll give the coaching staff the luxury of doing this. It really is a head scratcher as to why we've never seen it...

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09-16-2011, 01:33 PM
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Makes no sense.

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09-16-2011, 02:03 PM
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The value would be to occasionally give another look to our even strength forward lines. Check out chemistries with other line mates. They'll always be together on the PP at any rate. I don't think anyone is suggesting a permanent split.

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Old
09-16-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The twins have been the most productive line in the NHL at even strength when paired with Alex Burrows. IMO that's where this conversation ends.

Is there really a chance they improve upon the stagging, league leading numbers they've put up together 5 on 5? I wouldn't bet on it.

Now, making the twins do a little more heavy lifting during the regular season with less offensive zone starts I'm on board with. Getting them focused on shutting down opposing stars and playing a solid two-way game could serve the team well come playoff time when the matchups get more difficult.

I would even like to see Vigneault load up the top line with the Sedins and Kesler at even strength from time to time. That trio would be a nightmare for the opposition, Kesler is more than capable of double shifting and if Lapierre can handle PK minutes it'll give the coaching staff the luxury of doing this. It really is a head scratcher as to why we've never seen it...
Sedins with Kesler is another look I'd like to try. My whole point is I'd like to see some variations tested during the season that could be used as a "Plan B" if we suffer another scoring drought in the post season. Splitting up the Twins is likely the most radical suggestion, but I do think it should atleast be examined by the coaching staff.

People seem to think I'm suggesting Game 1 Round 1 we split em up and be done with it or something, when I'm arguing the opposite. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Well last SCF it was broke, and we couldn't fix it. We need to find a way around that.

And the twins are not the most productive line in hockey in the postseason. They're under a PPG. Granted, they face all-star defensemen every night, which is why an idea such as this could potentially work in the SHORT RUN to throw a wrench into things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petrishriekandgo View Post
Stop... I can't believe we still have these threads.

Come on Mods... can we consider these trolling?

Yeesh
It's not trolling, I was hoping we could discuss the possibility. Consider me in the camp that always flamed these threads to up until recently. In the regular season it makes no sense, but in the post season IF the scoring dries up I think there is a case to be made.

Anyways.. I feel like a broken record trying express my logic here..

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09-16-2011, 03:11 PM
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this idea makes little to no sense to me other than for a period or two throught the season.

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09-16-2011, 03:13 PM
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Firstly, I'd like to point out that I am in almost complete disagreement about splitting up the twins. The chemistry those two have is unmatched around the league, and I don't think splitting them up would be a wise decision.

That being said, I wouldn't have much of a problem if they were on separate lines for a shift here and there, just to see what would happen. They have improved offensively since they were last split up, what 2 years ago?

In the long run, the Canucks' best option is to keep both of them together. It's not the best idea to tinker with a proven recipe. In my opinion at least...


Last edited by Chairman Maouth: 09-17-2011 at 02:23 PM.
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Old
09-16-2011, 03:15 PM
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While we're at it maybe we can try Luongo on the wing. At first, the very notion of it might seem stupid, but it allows us to push Daniel down to the 2nd unit power play, which will really open things up for line matches.

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09-16-2011, 03:56 PM
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The ONLY thing I liked about the Sedins being split up during Daniel's injury, is that it clearly showed Henrik he is more then capable of shooting the puck, and he continued to do so for the rest of the season. At times last year I was standing up screaming at the TV when he would be right in the slot and pass the puck away to a covered man.

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