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09-15-2011, 08:03 PM
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beaterson
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OT: Why do players score less in Euro leagues?

I'm sure this has been asked before but I don't feel like looking. Why can't even superstars score at a point per game clip in say, the SEL or KHL, against worse players? I mean Ovy couldn't Bure couldn't, etc. Can someone enlighten me?

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09-15-2011, 08:23 PM
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ejams
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More space on a European rink means less aggressive plays I'm assuming. Ovi likes to draw players to the boards and shoot through their legs. In Europe if he drove them to the boards he would be farther from the net so less likely to score? There's one theory for you..

And players are less likely to get out of position to try and take you down and will poke the puck away giving less breakways than in NA.

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09-15-2011, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ejams View Post
More space on a European rink means less aggressive plays I'm assuming. Ovi likes to draw players to the boards and shoot through their legs. In Europe if he drove them to the boards he would be farther from the net so less likely to score? There's one theory for you..

And players are less likely to get out of position to try and take you down and will poke the puck away giving less breakways than in NA.
You are correct sir. Bigger ice surfaces means you are further away from the net. John Garret alsom mentioned that having the bigger ice surfaces means that there is more space to hide-- so when a team goes up 1-0-- they utilize that space just to play keep away from the other team...harder to forecheck on a bigger surface

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09-15-2011, 08:35 PM
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Inf123
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I've been told the khl also they don't give secondary assists as easily, not sure about the other euro leagues but that also makes it harder to keep a ppg.


Last edited by Inf123: 09-18-2011 at 12:02 PM. Reason: was corrected
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09-15-2011, 08:37 PM
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tsnTpoint
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Large Ice


It creates not only less goals, but can provide a very boring game at times. Teams leading tend to collapse the middle of the ice, and keep everyone outside. I remember Chicago (the year they won the cup) playing a few exhibition games against Euro teams and losing. Chicago dominated the game but fell behind early and lost due to the opposing team collapsing the middle, keeping everything to the outside.

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09-15-2011, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tsnTpoint View Post
Large Ice


It creates not only less goals, but can provide a very boring game at times. Teams leading tend to collapse the middle of the ice, and keep everyone outside. I remember Chicago (the year they won the cup) playing a few exhibition games against Euro teams and losing. Chicago dominated the game but fell behind early and lost due to the opposing team collapsing the middle, keeping everything to the outside.
Exactly this, hit the nail right on the head. Fair question though my friend, I also wondered why such dominant players in the NHL weren't putting up As Good* numbers in the SEL and it results in very defensive minded play. (collapsing middle of ice)

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09-15-2011, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Inf123 View Post
I know for the khl also they don't give secondary assists, not sure about the other euro leagues but that also makes it harder to keep a ppg.
Not true about the KHL.
They've always been handing out secondary assists (here's the boxscore for the very first KHL game in 2008).

I mostly follow the SEL, so I can't speak for all of Europe, but I'd say secondary assists aren't handed out as easily over here.
Still, most goals do have two assists, so while it's a contributing factor, I don't think it makes a huge difference in a player's P/G.

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09-15-2011, 09:18 PM
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Yep... think about soccer. Huge net... no goals. It's a more tactical game due to the ice surface. Teams have to be that much more cautious.

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09-15-2011, 10:55 PM
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Have a lot more time to play angles with the bigger ice.

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09-16-2011, 10:25 AM
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joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Son of Krypton View Post
Not true about the KHL.
They've always been handing out secondary assists (here's the boxscore for the very first KHL game in 2008).

I mostly follow the SEL, so I can't speak for all of Europe, but I'd say secondary assists aren't handed out as easily over here.
Still, most goals do have two assists, so while it's a contributing factor, I don't think it makes a huge difference in a player's P/G.
The secondary assists in the NHL are a joke at times.

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09-16-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsnTpoint View Post
Large Ice


It creates not only less goals, but can provide a very boring game at times. Teams leading tend to collapse the middle of the ice, and keep everyone outside. I remember Chicago (the year they won the cup) playing a few exhibition games against Euro teams and losing. Chicago dominated the game but fell behind early and lost due to the opposing team collapsing the middle, keeping everything to the outside.
Maybe you should actually watch a few games and you'd realize that the games are much more entertaining. If you like beautiful goals and nice plays more than fighting and nonsense hitting, that is.

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09-16-2011, 11:48 AM
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One more interesting thing is that the larger ice, puts other demands on the player - it's more important to be a good passer then a speed bullet. (over all).

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09-16-2011, 02:16 PM
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I like the end to end action of European play

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09-16-2011, 02:26 PM
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Joe Hallenback
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Bigger ice = less goals

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09-16-2011, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsnTpoint View Post
Large Ice


It creates not only less goals, but can provide a very boring game at times. Teams leading tend to collapse the middle of the ice, and keep everyone outside. I remember Chicago (the year they won the cup) playing a few exhibition games against Euro teams and losing. Chicago dominated the game but fell behind early and lost due to the opposing team collapsing the middle, keeping everything to the outside.
While I agree that the large ice is key in this I don't agree that its inately less interesting.
The big ice game can be very interesting if you are dilligent in eliminating obstructions, holds, and interference.

If the big ice game is allowed the free, unimpeded, flow it deserves then it can be very entertaining and tactically played.

How much holding was going on in those Chicago games?

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09-16-2011, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by beaterson View Post
I'm sure this has been asked before but I don't feel like looking. Why can't even superstars score at a point per game clip in say, the SEL or KHL, against worse players? I mean Ovy couldn't Bure couldn't, etc. Can someone enlighten me?
Just to touch on this point since everyone else has hit the other parts pretty strongly. It's rare that a superstar player in the NHL will play in a league in Russia/Sweden during their prime.

Ovechkin wasn't a PPG player in Russia, but he was also 19 when he played his last season. Young players also generally get less minutes in certain leagues in Europe. I haven't looked with Bure, but I imagine a similar type thing occurred. These guys leave these leagues when they are still teenagers.

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09-16-2011, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
While I agree that the large ice is key in this I don't agree that its inately less interesting.
The big ice game can be very interesting if you are dilligent in eliminating obstructions, holds, and interference.

If the big ice game is allowed the free, unimpeded, flow it deserves then it can be very entertaining and tactically played.

How much holding was going on in those Chicago games?
Honestly its been awhile so I don't really remember, but it very well may have been a factor.

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09-16-2011, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
Bigger ice = less goals
Behind the net has an article from 2005 http://www.behindthenet.ca/offense.html

Just based on this SEL and FNL are higher scoring than the NHL but KHL is lower scoring. Historically over periods of decades. Since SEL, FNL, and KHL all play on the big surface, it cannot simply be the surface size that determines scoring rates.

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09-16-2011, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Just to touch on this point since everyone else has hit the other parts pretty strongly. It's rare that a superstar player in the NHL will play in a league in Russia/Sweden during their prime.

Ovechkin wasn't a PPG player in Russia, but he was also 19 when he played his last season. Young players also generally get less minutes in certain leagues in Europe. I haven't looked with Bure, but I imagine a similar type thing occurred. These guys leave these leagues when they are still teenagers.
IIRC Bure played in the Russian league during the 95 lockout (?) and wasn't able to score at the rate he did in the NHL. Not even close to it, really.

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09-16-2011, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
The secondary assists in the NHL are a joke at times.
Goalie stops the puck behind the net, center goes end to end...

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09-16-2011, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Post View Post
Behind the net has an article from 2005 http://www.behindthenet.ca/offense.html

Just based on this SEL and FNL are higher scoring than the NHL but KHL is lower scoring. Historically over periods of decades. Since SEL, FNL, and KHL all play on the big surface, it cannot simply be the surface size that determines scoring rates.
Interesting. Wondering if extra fatigue caused by the larger surface could be leading to 1st line players seeing less minutes per game than in the nhl?

Also, the frequency and success rates of powerplay's will have a significant impact on the percentage of total team points going to the dominant players.

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09-17-2011, 10:29 AM
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joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Goalie stops the puck behind the net, center goes end to end...
I like the ones where the winger dumps it in, the d-man touches the puck and gets stripped by the center, who then passes it out in front to the other winger.

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09-18-2011, 11:35 AM
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Is it also a finesse thing? - waiting to get that perfect shot, netting you less goals...

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09-18-2011, 12:01 PM
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Inf123
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Originally Posted by Son of Krypton View Post
Not true about the KHL.
They've always been handing out secondary assists (here's the boxscore for the very first KHL game in 2008).

I mostly follow the SEL, so I can't speak for all of Europe, but I'd say secondary assists aren't handed out as easily over here.
Still, most goals do have two assists, so while it's a contributing factor, I don't think it makes a huge difference in a player's P/G.
oops, didn't know that. I guess the khl boxscores I saw just didn't write them in at the time.

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