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Marc Staal (10/5: Out indefinitely, on IR)

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:08 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I think he's just saying it's time to improve helmet technology to protect better against all possible head injuries (including facial ones) instead of just trying to look cool.
Exactly.

Cool factor and looking tough outweigh logic, for a lot of players, unfortunately.

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:09 PM
  #52
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It's a great idea, but intuitively you're going to have a real hard time developing an external device to solve an internal problem.

That is, the problem is the brain smashing against the inside of your skull, which we can't really prevent or even dampen. Can we reduce the force on the outside of the skull? Possibly, but even whiplash causes the problem, which doesn't require any force directly contacting the skull, simply the motion of the head when the body is struck with force. No helmet can help there...
If the helmet absorbe more of the force of the initial hit the force that transgers to the skull/spine/brain will be less. This will positively prevent some injuries and make sure that others are less serious

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:15 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Khelvan View Post
It's a great idea, but intuitively you're going to have a real hard time developing an external device to solve an internal problem.

That is, the problem is the brain smashing against the inside of your skull, which we can't really prevent or even dampen. Can we reduce the force on the outside of the skull? Possibly, but even whiplash causes the problem, which doesn't require any force directly contacting the skull, simply the motion of the head when the body is struck with force. No helmet can help there...
I understand the cause of concussions.

And of course there's more you can do - look at the thickness of the average hockey helmet. There's plenty more room there to increase shock absorption simply by making the helmets larger. And that's without going into improvements that could be made to shape, structure, materials, etc.

You'll never be able to eliminate it entirely due to the effects of whiplash, hits from odd angles, etc. - but there's more that could be done, especially if you were willing to consider helmets that made it harder to see the players face and - shock! horror! - made fighting impossible (or pointless).

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
The likely cause of the injury is when Staal's face smacked into the ice -- not the impact of Eric hitting him. Depending on the angle, a visor may have absorbed at least part of that impact.
With all due respect, I don't believe you have a good grasp on what causes concussions.

Concussions are primarily caused by one's brain getting hurled around in side of one's skull and smacking into the interior of one's skull. A body in motion, remains in motion, as does one's brain. When an immediate force either completely stops one's directional momentum, the brain continues in that direction till it smacks up against the interior of one's skull and can actually bounce off more than one interior skull areas. Hence the reason why a simple whiplash movement can cause serious concussions.

Of course the impact of one's head against any hard surface will cause damage or further damage. But a visor would have not prevented the brain from impacting the interior of the skull. Nor would it have really absorbed much of the impact.

The problem in this day and age, these last two decades, is that players are all much bigger, stronger, faster and much more well conditioned; than they were during the previous decades. So the speed, muscle, bulk and strength create a much more intense and explosive impact. Thus causing more whiplash action of the head, more brain movement (brain impact on the interior of the skull) and then yet another impact (or sudden stop) of a player hits his head on the ice or glass or boards.

Visors are pointless in these scenarios.

Pucks and sticks to the face/eyes? Preventing major disfiguring facial injuries? Yeah, visors are good for that, for sure, and they do help prevent injuries...in that way.

Concussions? No, not really.

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:19 PM
  #55
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His own brother? Jeez. What is the sport coming to.

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:21 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
With all due respect, I don't believe you have a good grasp on what causes concussions.

Concussions are primarily caused by one's brain getting hurled around in side of one's skull and smacking into the interior of one's skull. A body in motion, remains in motion, as does one's brain. When an immediate force either completely stops one's directional momentum, the brain continues in that direction till it smacks up against the interior of one's skull and can actually bounce off more than one interior skull areas. Hence the reason why a simple whiplash movement can cause serious concussions.

Of course the impact of one's head against any hard surface will cause damage or further damage. But a visor would have not prevented the brain from impacting the interior of the skull. Nor would it have really absorbed much of the impact.

The problem in this day and age, these last two decades, is that players are all much bigger, stronger, faster and much more well conditioned; than they were during the previous decades. So the speed, muscle, bulk and strength create a much more intense and explosive impact. Thus causing more whiplash action of the head, more brain movement (brain impact on the interior of the skull) and then yet another impact (or sudden stop) of a player hits his head on the ice or glass or boards.

Visors are pointless in these scenarios.

Pucks and sticks to the face/eyes? Preventing major disfiguring facial injuries? Yeah, visors are good for that, for sure, and they do help prevent injuries...in that way.

Concussions? No, not really.
I'm well aware of what causes concussions, having suffered one playing hockey.

My point is, a visor has some give to it. From the video, the first thing that hit the ice was Staal's jaw. Essentially, because he wasn't wearing a visor, the helmet provided no protection, because the impact was ice-to-face. Had he been wearing a visor, depending on the angle he actually hit (which is hard to tell from the youtube video), there is at least a chance that some of the impact would've been absorbed by the helmet, and the force imposed on his actual skull would've been reduced. [Due to the nature of Staal's hit, a mouthguard would be even more important, but I assume/hope he was wearing one.]

In most concussions, a visor isn't going to do anything. My own concussion resulted from me being knocked straight back after a hit, so that the back of my head impacted the ice. A visor would've done nothing there. However, in Staal's case, there's a chance that a visor would've reduced the impact of the contact.

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:22 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I think he's just saying it's time to improve helmet technology to protect better against all possible head injuries (including facial ones) instead of just trying to look cool.
Okay, I understand that concept. But it really doesn't apply to most concussions. Very few concussion injuries would be avoided by visors.

And while improving helmet design technology could definitely help reduce the impact shock, the brain would still be already moving in the interior of the skull and would still impact the interior of the skull. Helpful for sure, and the league should continue to work on that; but it's not going to eliminate the danger of concussions.

You have to understand the fundamental aspects of why most concussions occur. Understand what is happening in the skull upon impact.

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
With all due respect, I don't believe you have a good grasp on what causes concussions.

Concussions are primarily caused by one's brain getting hurled around in side of one's skull and smacking into the interior of one's skull. A body in motion, remains in motion, as does one's brain. When an immediate force either completely stops one's directional momentum, the brain continues in that direction till it smacks up against the interior of one's skull and can actually bounce off more than one interior skull areas. Hence the reason why a simple whiplash movement can cause serious concussions.

Of course the impact of one's head against any hard surface will cause damage or further damage. But a visor would have not prevented the brain from impacting the interior of the skull. Nor would it have really absorbed much of the impact.

The problem in this day and age, these last two decades, is that players are all much bigger, stronger, faster and much more well conditioned; than they were during the previous decades. So the speed, muscle, bulk and strength create a much more intense and explosive impact. Thus causing more whiplash action of the head, more brain movement (brain impact on the interior of the skull) and then yet another impact (or sudden stop) of a player hits his head on the ice or glass or boards.

Visors are pointless in these scenarios.

Pucks and sticks to the face/eyes? Preventing major disfiguring facial injuries? Yeah, visors are good for that, for sure, and they do help prevent injuries...in that way.

Concussions? No, not really.
Against most concussions? I agree. However, if the initial impact were to come directly to the cheek, it would provide some mitigating effect, especially if it were combined with a larger helmet. So, it wouldn't be totally worthless.

How about a helmet that shared some properties with football helmets - i.e. a rigid component that extended out away, and potentially down, from the jaw? While, to your point, very few concussions are generated by direct hits to the upper face, MANY of them come to shots to the jaw.

So, why don't we see any designs with a full helmet?

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:25 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
His own brother? Jeez. What is the sport coming to.
i remember that hit. I remember thinking, "Gee that was unnecessary and mean".
Oh well, I hope Marc lays out Eric with an open ice hit this year, and knocks the wind out of him hard.

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:33 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
I'm well aware of what causes concussions, having suffered one playing hockey.

My point is, a visor has some give to it. From the video, the first thing that hit the ice was Staal's jaw. Essentially, because he wasn't wearing a visor, the helmet provided no protection, because the impact was ice-to-face. Had he been wearing a visor, depending on the angle he actually hit (which is hard to tell from the youtube video), there is at least a chance that some of the impact would've been absorbed by the helmet, and the force imposed on his actual skull would've been reduced. [Due to the nature of Staal's hit, a mouthguard would be even more important, but I assume/hope he was wearing one.]

In most concussions, a visor isn't going to do anything. My own concussion resulted from me being knocked straight back after a hit, so that the back of my head impacted the ice. A visor would've done nothing there. However, in Staal's case, there's a chance that a visor would've reduced the impact of the contact.
It's a very slim chance.

It's hard to see if his face/jaw hit the ice.

I'm PCS symptomatic for over 46 months and still waiting for it to go away (car accident).

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:38 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
It's a very slim chance.

It's hard to see if his face/jaw hit the ice.

I'm PCS symptomatic for over 46 months and still waiting for it to go away (car accident).
Huh? Go to the 23 second mark in the video. There's no doubt that his face/jaw hit the ice. The only question is whether his face hit at an angle. If his face landed flat against the ice, a visor definitely would've absorbed some of the impact, but if it was chin first, then a visor probably wouldn't have helped.

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Old
09-18-2011, 01:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Huh? Go to the 23 second mark in the video. There's no doubt that his face/jaw hit the ice. The only question is whether his face hit at an angle. If his face landed flat against the ice, a visor definitely would've absorbed some of the impact, but if it was chin first, then a visor probably wouldn't have helped.
Honestly, I just don't see it. I've enlarged it to full screen and watched it at least a dozen times. I don't see his jaw hitting the ice. It looks to me like his left arm underneath him and him planting his right hand, prevented his face from hitting the ice. I watched it over and over and I just couldn't see it. Maybe it's just me.

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Old
09-18-2011, 02:13 PM
  #63
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as it was explained to me, after a friend, and fellow Judo player, suffered a nasty knockout; PCS is the arrival of symptoms caused by the damage the brain took. It's not the immediate aftermath from damaged capillaries and swelling, but the actual brain functions that have taken the damage becoming apparent later on.

Keep in mind this info came from a general practitioner MD of internal medicine that does lots of work with the sports science and health community, and not a neuroscientist.

But yea, he made it pretty clear that the short term effects of concussions is the bleeding and swelling, and how that all interferes with the processes of the brain. The long term effects can be much more subtle, and aren't always recognizable until all the other trauma is gone.

Honestly, if the NHL starts targeting concussions, and really enforces teams protect their players, you're going to see players that get rattled out for very long stretches, as doctors wait out the symptoms and see exactly where the player stands.

If the NHL is in anyway serious about getting rid of concussions, the two measures that could really help would be mandating Face Cages, and mandating mouth guards that are specifically made to cut down on head trauma.

Since the change over to the mouth guards alone, we haven't had a single concussion case in my gym in over a year.

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09-18-2011, 02:15 PM
  #64
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Maybe this kills 2 birds with one stone.

1. let's Marc rest a bit more before the grind.
2. gives an extra spot for marginal players to battle for a spot with more ice time.

precautionary is always best with your top players. imo

go rangers!

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09-18-2011, 02:23 PM
  #65
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Great training camp so far. What's tomorrow's news gonna be? Lundqvist is being held out of all preseason games because his blocker arm has fallen off?
Nope, it will be because someone stole his designer suit collection! Lol

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09-18-2011, 02:30 PM
  #66
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Rather be safe than sorry.

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09-18-2011, 02:31 PM
  #67
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hopefully this is just a big precaution and not a lingering issue...if he misses games to start the season, or even the whole season, that's a huge blow

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09-18-2011, 02:31 PM
  #68
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If the league is serious then it will do what really needs to be done to stop the players from killing each other. The ice needs to be bigger. The game is different now, as was said, players today are bigger, faster, better, conditioned and ruthless. I have no doubt that bigger ice surfaces will reduce concussions and still keep the game physical, especially with the speed that these players move down the ice.

I love physical play, its one of my favorite parts of the game(right behind a really good deke) but these guys are too much now and the NHL needs to stop looking down its nose at the big ice, it will save lives, I'm sure of it.

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09-18-2011, 02:34 PM
  #69
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I don't remember the details, but many/some of us suspected that he had problems all spring last season. Like he disapeared from games after getting high-sticked etc. Didn't look 100%.

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09-18-2011, 02:47 PM
  #70
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Nope, it will be because someone stole his designer suit collection! Lol
lolololollllllzzzzzzzzzzz1111111zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz111 1!!!!!!!!!!!!

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09-18-2011, 02:52 PM
  #71
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They need to do something.

Visors, mouth guards, throat guards, and wrist guards should be mandated, IMO.

Avoid all preventable injuries to the eyes, slit jugular veins, broken wrists.

Combine the M11 with a good visor and a custom mouth guard and you're improving your chances to avoid concussions from the get go.

I just don't understand how the league allows its players to be at extra unnessesary risk, when the technology and equipment is out there to prevent specific injuries.
They should all just be wrapped in bubble wrap, given foam sticks, and play on astro-turf with a nerf ball. Oh, and no contact.

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09-18-2011, 02:53 PM
  #72
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Wtf...

Then WHY did they allow him to play last year?
An excellent point. I remember the hit but we haven't heard anything about post concussion symptoms for Staal until now. Didn't he just get married recently? Perhaps his wife threw a frying pan at him accidently.

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09-18-2011, 03:00 PM
  #73
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It is more than just the helmets. That is a huge part but the equipment as a whole needs to be re-examined. Say what you will about Don Cherry, but he has been very vocal about how clunky and dangerous shoulder and elbow pads have become and how much damage they can do in certain situations.

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09-18-2011, 03:07 PM
  #74
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They should all just be wrapped in bubble wrap, given foam sticks, and play on astro-turf with a nerf ball. Oh, and no contact.
Just gave myself that visual. And I laughed.

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09-18-2011, 03:26 PM
  #75
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Staal misses any large amount of time and we might as well just kiss this season goodbye and start talking about the 2012 draft.

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