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Old
09-16-2011, 08:36 PM
  #26
NugentHopkinsfan
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They don't take over a series or even a game like other star players. They just play the exact same way they do all season and get their points off breakdowns the other team makes. Yes I know they have to go against the best d-men and checkers but so does every other elite player. Guys like Kesler and Bieksa stepped up while the twins did what they always do.

And yes their Sharks series really inflated their otherwise poor stats.

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09-16-2011, 08:40 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
Wait what? Kesler hasn't done enough to put him over the Sedins. If the Sharks had such a crap defense, why didn't Kesler dominate that series as well?

Both the Sedins and Kesler still have more to give imo.
Kesler is also just stepping into his prime, Sedins are well in theirs. Kesler gets a bit more leeway for now and has shown so much heart in the playoffs and will to win something we don't see from the twins.

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09-16-2011, 08:45 PM
  #28
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And yes their Sharks series really inflated their otherwise poor stats.
Weak argument IMO. Without that dominance from the Sedins, I'm not sure the Canucks get past the Sharks. Not as obvious as Kesler's dominance against Nashville, but similar effect.

Also, I'm pretty sure Datsyuk and Zetterberg's playoff scoring drops in a similar proportion to that of the Sedins.

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09-16-2011, 08:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ScubaaaBob View Post
Kesler is also just stepping into his prime, Sedins are well in theirs. Kesler gets a bit more leeway for now and has shown so much heart in the playoffs and will to win something we don't see from the twins.
exactly

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09-16-2011, 09:02 PM
  #30
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By now are there that many people who don't know the Sedins' game? C'mon, do you guys suddenly expect the Sedins to become power forwards when the playoffs start? I'm not trying to make excuses for them, but gimme a break. They are who they are. Hank set an NHL record for assists in a series this year, and that series only had 5 games in it. Am I the only person who remembers how we were all wondering what was wrong with him in the Chicago and Nashville series? Game 5 or 6 in Nashville, I saw him skating for a loose puck, and his stance was so wide and awkward it looked like he was riding a horse. All this crap about Marchand that keeps coming up...can any of you imagine the outrage if Lapierre just started pounding away on Bergeron or Seguin? The main board would have been inundated with threads started by hyperventilating Bruins fans (at least the ones who can read at a 3rd grade level) calling him the cheapest chicken**** punk in the history of the NHL for trying to nail a classy guy who doesn't fight. And they'd have all been demanding a Congressional Inquiry if the refs had stood there with their hands in their pockets watching.

The Sedins' game is down-low puck possession. That's been their bread and butter since forever. That's what they do. They're not fighters. They're not speedy puck-rushers. They don't shoot the puck like Al Iafrate. Their game is skill, and when the playoffs start and the officiating goes down the tubes and everyone is given a green light to mug them every play, their totals go down. Yes, they didn't step up as far as they should have, but then what would have really happened if Lapierre had spontaneously started dummying Bergeron between whistles? Someone would have knocked him flat after one punch. Who did that for our guys in the Free Willy?

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09-16-2011, 09:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
Weak argument IMO. Without that dominance from the Sedins, I'm not sure the Canucks get past the Sharks. Not as obvious as Kesler's dominance against Nashville, but similar effect.

Also, I'm pretty sure Datsyuk and Zetterberg's playoff scoring drops in a similar proportion to that of the Sedins.
Sedins didn't play a point per game last playoffs Dats and Zetterberg put up more than a point per game. Dats and Zetterberg also take over games and can carry their team more than one series.

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09-16-2011, 10:07 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ScubaaaBob View Post
Now compare the regular season numbers of the last 3 season to the playoff numbers... they don't take their game to the next level in the playoffs and we need that if we want to go all the way, imho.
Eric Staal is the poster boy for a goold old Canadian kid who kicks it up a notch in the playoffs and goes straight into beast mode. Let's take a look at some of his stats:

2005-2006: Regular Season PPG - 1.22
Post Season PPG - 1.12

2008-2009: Regular Season PPG - 0.915
Post Season PPG - 0.83

It should be expected for a player's production to typically take a hit in the playoffs. Players play injured, they play against stricter defensive systems, other teams line match more religiously and you face a tougher level of competition night-in, night-out.

Even Crosby, who has been nothing short of phenomenal in the playoffs, has a 1.32 PPG in the playoffs versus his 1.39 PPG in the regular season over his career. And Crosby is a generational talent whose post-season can't possibly be questioned.

Or take a look at Getzlaf - another player that is generally accepted to be straight beast in the playoffs. He's got a career PPG of .855 in the playoffs and .965 in the regular season. He's had one amazing playoff run where he got 18 points in 13 games (unreal) but otherwise hasn't been that spectacular.

You should always expect a player's PPG in the playoffs to suffer slightly compared to their regular season PPG. The seasons that they don't are a luxury and should be praised but to expect it is to hold a player to a higher standard than is possible.

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09-16-2011, 10:31 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by CloutierForVezina View Post
Eric Staal is the poster boy for a goold old Canadian kid who kicks it up a notch in the playoffs and goes straight into beast mode. Let's take a look at some of his stats:

2005-2006: Regular Season PPG - 1.22
Post Season PPG - 1.12

2008-2009: Regular Season PPG - 0.915
Post Season PPG - 0.83

It should be expected for a player's production to typically take a hit in the playoffs. Players play injured, they play against stricter defensive systems, other teams line match more religiously and you face a tougher level of competition night-in, night-out.

Even Crosby, who has been nothing short of phenomenal in the playoffs, has a 1.32 PPG in the playoffs versus his 1.39 PPG in the regular season over his career. And Crosby is a generational talent whose post-season can't possibly be questioned.

Or take a look at Getzlaf - another player that is generally accepted to be straight beast in the playoffs. He's got a career PPG of .855 in the playoffs and .965 in the regular season. He's had one amazing playoff run where he got 18 points in 13 games (unreal) but otherwise hasn't been that spectacular.

You should always expect a player's PPG in the playoffs to suffer slightly compared to their regular season PPG. The seasons that they don't are a luxury and should be praised but to expect it is to hold a player to a higher standard than is possible.
Sedins playoff numbers drop below a point per game

Daniel 20pts in 25 games - .80 vs 104pts in 82 games -1.26

Hank 22pts in 25 games .88 vs 94 in 82 1.14

Sedins drop below point per game players and the teams that win the cup they have their top players producing at over a ppg, Boston the only team I can think of that didn't recently. Sedins played one round at an amazing rate vs the Sharks but didn't do much in the other series and in the biggest one in the SCF had a HUGE 4 points in 7 games!!!! Sedins and Luongo are running out of excuses for their playoff failures as we have given them a solid team to lead to the cup these are our leaders and we need them to be a lot more consistent in their game if we want to win the cup.

Your proving my point with Staal cup run numbers and Getz cup run numbers that we need our best players playing over a ppg and being more consistent if we want to win a cup.

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Old
09-16-2011, 11:12 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ScubaaaBob View Post
Your proving my point with Staal cup run numbers and Getz cup run numbers that we need our best players playing over a ppg and being more consistent if we want to win a cup.
Staal's cup run occured in the 2005-2006 which was a much higher scoring year than this year. Given that he hasn't come close to repeating the 100-point season he had that year, I would say his numbers were probably inflated.

Carolina also played the Canadiens, Devils, Sabres and Oilers in their cup run. Those teams were the 13th, 9th, 10th and 12th best defensive teams that year. We played Chicago, Nashville, San Jose and Boston which were the 12th, 3rd, 10th, 2nd best defensive teams last year.

So yes, Staal was putting up more points in his playoff run than either Sedin did last year. But he was doing it against much softer defense in a much higher scoring year.

Getzlaf only scored at a 0.81 PPG pace the year the Ducks won the cup. He was held pointless in 9 of the 21 games they played in those playoffs.


Last edited by CloutierForVezina: 09-16-2011 at 11:17 PM.
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Old
09-16-2011, 11:22 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CloutierForVezina View Post
Staal's cup run occured in the 2005-2006 which was a much higher scoring year than this year. Given that he hasn't come close to repeating the 100-point season he had that year, I would say his numbers were probably inflated.

Carolina also played the Canadiens, Devils, Sabres and Oilers in their cup run. Those teams were the 13th, 9th, 10th and 12th best defensive teams that year. We played Chicago, Nashville, San Jose and Boston which were the 12th, 3rd, 10th, 2nd best defensive teams last year.

So yes, Staal was putting up more points in his playoff run than either Sedin did last year. But he was doing it against much softer defense in a much higher scoring year.

Getzlaf only scored at a 0.81 PPG pace the year the Ducks won the cup. He was held pointless in 9 of the 21 games they played in those playoffs.
Did he collect most of his points in one series? fact is Sedins need to be consistent, we're not winning a cup if they can only put it together for one series and we have to rely on the depth for the other 3 series. If your happy with the twins post season then so be it but they clearly need to work on their post season game cause 4 pts in the SCF from our best players isn't acceptable.

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09-18-2011, 01:55 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ScubaaaBob View Post
Sedins didn't play a point per game last playoffs Dats and Zetterberg put up more than a point per game. Dats and Zetterberg also take over games and can carry their team more than one series.
dont forget both dats and zetts were considereed playoff failures early i. their career AND thats on a stacked team.

takes time and all playoff performers struggle in series and cruise in others ....

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09-18-2011, 02:04 PM
  #37
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Kesler is also just stepping into his prime, Sedins are well in theirs. Kesler gets a bit more leeway for now and has shown so much heart in the playoffs and will to win something we don't see from the twins.
I think you need to sit and watch the twins with a pad and paper

mark down all the little slashes and the little cross checks.....plus all the big hits and big crosschecks in a single game
pay attention to the detail and you will never comment on how the twins bring their game e very shift/game


they may not be a lash and cut line but they pay a heavy price in the trenches

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09-18-2011, 02:09 PM
  #38
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the other point I would make is you look at the lines they play against in a series.

and see how worn down those players are at the end of a series trying to keep pace with the sedins



do the sedins need to produce more at times. yes.... do they need to find other avenues yes

did they get with one game of winning it all... banged and bruised. yes

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09-18-2011, 02:13 PM
  #39
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Kesler carried the team on his back through Nashville. One of the more dominant performances I've seen. He was clearly playing injured in part of San Jose and in the finals.
Kesler didn't injure himself until the very last game (5) in the third (second?) period.

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09-18-2011, 02:20 PM
  #40
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Obviously the sedins need to produce.

More importantly, if they get shutdown, they need to not hurt the team by being defensive liabilities.

We are talking about 2 guys who were known to play keep away and hem other teams for full shifts.

Ever since they broke out offensive in early 2010, I find their defensive game has regressed.

Their even strengths numbers also regressed.

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09-18-2011, 04:48 PM
  #41
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Did he collect most of his points in one series? fact is Sedins need to be consistent, we're not winning a cup if they can only put it together for one series and we have to rely on the depth for the other 3 series. If your happy with the twins post season then so be it but they clearly need to work on their post season game cause 4 pts in the SCF from our best players isn't acceptable.
I've never once said that I was thrilled with how the Sedins have performed but I do accept it as about what should be expected from them.

As a fan, obviously I want more. I want them go out every single shift and score. I want to see Daniel Sedin with a hat trick every single game. I want to see Kesler fly through 5 players, deke out the goalie and roof it every game. I want to see Henrik thread pass after pass through legs and sticks right onto the tape of Burrows who has an empty net.

But I don't expect any of that. I really wanted to see them absolutely dominate last year's SCF but I accept the fact Henrik was battling a bad back and accept the fact that we can't travel back in time and force them to score more in the finals... there's a reason Chara has won a Norris and Thomas has won multiple Vezinas.

They didn't do so poor as to deserve the constant slagging that they're getting from their own fans. They absorbed an enormous amount of abuse during those playoffs and produced a reasonable amount of points. I'm not thrilled with their performance but I'm satisfied and I understand they performed right around where they should be expected to perform.

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09-18-2011, 05:33 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CloutierForVezina View Post
I've never once said that I was thrilled with how the Sedins have performed but I do accept it as about what should be expected from them.

As a fan, obviously I want more. I want them go out every single shift and score. I want to see Daniel Sedin with a hat trick every single game. I want to see Kesler fly through 5 players, deke out the goalie and roof it every game. I want to see Henrik thread pass after pass through legs and sticks right onto the tape of Burrows who has an empty net.

But I don't expect any of that. I really wanted to see them absolutely dominate last year's SCF but I accept the fact Henrik was battling a bad back and accept the fact that we can't travel back in time and force them to score more in the finals... there's a reason Chara has won a Norris and Thomas has won multiple Vezinas.

They didn't do so poor as to deserve the constant slagging that they're getting from their own fans. They absorbed an enormous amount of abuse during those playoffs and produced a reasonable amount of points. I'm not thrilled with their performance but I'm satisfied and I understand they performed right around where they should be expected to perform.
I don't believe the Twins are playoff chokers but their playoff game needs to improve. They aren't consistent in the playoffs and we need them to be if we want to win. They had a dominate round vs San Jose, do I expect that in every playoff round?, no, but I'd expect their game to be much more consistent than it is. They had 3 or 4 points combined in the SCF as our main offensive guys and leaders of this team, we wont be winning any cups if thats the production we can expect.

I like the Twins, they're loyal to this team and city and have become better players than we all thought they would be, but for us to win a cup we need them to shine in the SCF and be more consistent with their scoring throughout the playoffs and series.

You bring up that Boston had a Norris in Chara and a Vezina goalie in Thomas, well we have not one but TWO art ross winning players, a goalie that was in the race for the Vezina and a Selke center. Luongo and the Twins need to step up more and be much more consistent in the post season, they have the talent to do it. As to the twins getting too much heat, which may be true, we lost the cup because of offence and our goaltending and the Twins lead our offence and PP and Luongo really dropped the ball in the SCF for us, I would like to see much more consistency in both their games.

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09-18-2011, 06:03 PM
  #43
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I think the biggest problem isn't really the Sedins themselves, but more how the team and the Canucks' game is structured around them. The Canucks excellent scoring was predicated on the Sedins putting up 1.2-1.3 points per game and being dominant on the PP. But that can't really be expected to carry through to the playoffs. The reffing is too lax, defensemen can focus on them too much, and they probably won't get as many PPs. The Sedins are fantastic players, but if you're expecting them to produce in the playoffs like they have in the past couple of regular seasons, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Really the problem was and is scoring depth. You can't have your top scorers put up only point per game numbers while having a bottom 6 that produces only 1 goal every 3 or 4 games. Pretty much every cup winner in the past decade has had 6-7 forwards producing at .50 points per game in the playoffs. Here's what the Canucks had:

H. Sedin: 0.88
D. Sedin: 0.80
Kesler: 0.76
Burrows: 0.68

After that it dropped way down to Hansen who had a 0.36 points per game.


The Canucks had neither the primary scoring nor the depth scoring of most cup winners. The primary scoring probably isn't going to change much and teams such as Boston, Anaheim, and others have demonstrated that you can win without anyone scoring over a point per game, but that great depth is absolutely vital. If everyone remains healthy and Raymond and Samuelsson can return to form, the Canucks might be close, but that was truly their biggest downfall in the last playoffs. And who knows, with more legitimate scoring down the lineup that'd likely free the Sedins up a bit and we may see increased production from them as well.

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09-18-2011, 06:27 PM
  #44
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09-18-2011, 09:39 PM
  #45
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All there is is whining and crying. What's the solution? Trade them or not. Really it's that simple. They will win or lose with them. Obviously there are a few who clearly think the Sedins are not capable of doing this so what's the solution?

This thread should bug everyone because it is basically a thread crying about how the Canucks will never win with the Sedins but offers no solutions other than "those sedins have got to be better in the playoffs."

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09-18-2011, 10:05 PM
  #46
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I have no worries about the Sedins.

Keep in mind that they're only $6.1 million each. That's peanuts for the kind of players that they are. You also have to take into account Hank's injury and the fact that they now both have Stanley Cup finals experience.

They're going to be better players next year.

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09-18-2011, 11:44 PM
  #47
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looking at stats of the top lines of the SCF over the last 4 yrs
it becomes clear that thevpt prodution is limited from the top lines... quite often it is a group scoring effort
sedin h 1-2=3
sedin d 1-3=4
burr 2-1=3
kes0-1=1

bos kreji 2-4=6
bergeron 2-3=5
marchand 5-2=7
horton 3gms 0-0=0

and in aseries with no goaltending
toews 0-3=3
kane 3-5=8
hossa 1-3=4
sharp 4-2=6
bolland3-3=6

briere 3-9=12
richards 1-2=3
carter 1-1=2
giroux 2-2=4
leno 3-6=9

pitts
crosby 09 1-2=3. 08 2-4=6
malkin 09 2-6=8. 08 1-2=3
guerin 09 0-1=1

det
zet 09 2-4=6. 08 2-4=6
dats 09 0-2=2. 08 1-3=4
holm 09 0-2=2. 08 1-1=2
franz 09 2-2=4. 08 1-2=3


alot of great players with soso numbers. and keep in mind that some of those players scored a bunch in a game or two to inflate their numbers....blanked in alot of gms

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09-18-2011, 11:45 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan View Post
All there is is whining and crying. What's the solution? Trade them or not. Really it's that simple. They will win or lose with them. Obviously there are a few who clearly think the Sedins are not capable of doing this so what's the solution?

This thread should bug everyone because it is basically a thread crying about how the Canucks will never win with the Sedins but offers no solutions other than "those sedins have got to be better in the playoffs."
I don't think it's whining to say that both the Sedins and Luongo need to play better in the playoffs. I think that they are capable of doing that and I am quite confient that they will. I would certainly not want to trade them. I suspect that even the Sedins would acknowledege that they need to be better.

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09-19-2011, 12:21 AM
  #49
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The concept of stepping it up in the playoffs assumes you aren't giving your emotional best during the regular season and are getting an adrenaline boost from the playoffs.
One of the reasons Keenan wasn't the biggest Linden fan.

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