HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Rink
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Rink For the not so ready for prime-time players, coaches, referees, and the people that have to live with them. Discuss experiences in local leagues, coaching tips, equipment, and training.

Is it all about balance?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-17-2011, 02:12 PM
  #1
Maximum Cheddar
Registered User
 
Maximum Cheddar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 333
vCash: 500
Is it all about balance?

We have a problem on our rec team. Half of our players are good and the other half are not. Yesterday we tried to balance the lineup with 1 good d-man and 1 weak d-man. We also had 2 lines with 2 good players and 1 weak player, and a 3rd line of 1 good player and 2 weak ones. We did not fair well losing 5 -0. So my question is how do we handle this situation? What's the best way to disperse the lineup? It was just our first game together I'm I over reacting? Thanks in advance.

Maximum Cheddar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2011, 02:19 PM
  #2
flyers10
Registered User
 
flyers10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 103
vCash: 500
It was only your first game. Try it another game before switching. The other team may have been much better so no line change would help anyway. Also new teams playing teams that have played together for a few years almost always struggle at first until you get some chemistry together. The risk of stacking the lines is that you may get a few goals from line 1 but lines 2 & 3 get hammered and give up 7. Have people play to their strengths. If the weak forward doesn't skate well but is bigger have them drive to net and park themselves there, etc, etc.

flyers10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2011, 03:44 PM
  #3
Pajicz
Registered User
 
Pajicz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country:
Posts: 3,893
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Pajicz
I wouldn't prefer balancing the line-up before the game starts; playing with an awful linemate just makes a good player play badly. Got too much experience about it. Only if you're winning by 2-3 goals, then it might be a good choice to mix up a bit.

Pajicz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2011, 05:31 PM
  #4
Wildturkey12
Do It!
 
Wildturkey12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: L.A.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,396
vCash: 500
What we usually do is put two of the good d-men on the same line with some of the not so good forwards and vice versa. The key is to make sure the defense doesnt change at the same time as the forwards. We score a lot of goals during that minute where we overlap. Then again, our team is not very good.

Wildturkey12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2011, 11:47 PM
  #5
Pog Form
Registered User
 
Pog Form's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 706
vCash: 500
I read on here recently about a method of setting lines by matching player speed rather than trying to balance good/not-so-good. Seemed like it could work.

Pog Form is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2011, 12:41 AM
  #6
Rink Bum
Registered User
 
Rink Bum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 34
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Cheddar View Post
We have a problem on our rec team. Half of our players are good and the other half are not. Yesterday we tried to balance the lineup with 1 good d-man and 1 weak d-man. We also had 2 lines with 2 good players and 1 weak player, and a 3rd line of 1 good player and 2 weak ones. We did not fair well losing 5 -0. So my question is how do we handle this situation? What's the best way to disperse the lineup? It was just our first game together I'm I over reacting? Thanks in advance.
MC,

How are your weak players positionally? Do they know their positions and how to cover when in your own zone?

Sounds like the summer team I was on. We had a range of levels from A/B players to beginners. Tried all sorts of lineups and didn't help as players were out of position. But once the beginners were able to play their positions better it was easier to get the puck out of our zone at least and then get some scoring.

Also, as your team begins to play together, the chemistry will come. Case in point, first game and first time we're playing together, we had 14 on our bench versus 5 plus their 1 sub..........err, we lost horribly......

They were not better by any huge means, just a team that had been playing together for some time, and they knew their positions.

Rink Bum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2011, 09:49 AM
  #7
Subnordi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Brunswick
Country: Canada
Posts: 271
vCash: 500
What my team did was try to have a line combo of Skill/Size/Speed, worked great

Subnordi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2011, 10:02 AM
  #8
Maximum Cheddar
Registered User
 
Maximum Cheddar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rink Bum View Post
MC,

How are your weak players positionally? Do they know their positions and how to cover when in your own zone?

Sounds like the summer team I was on. We had a range of levels from A/B players to beginners. Tried all sorts of lineups and didn't help as players were out of position. But once the beginners were able to play their positions better it was easier to get the puck out of our zone at least and then get some scoring.

Also, as your team begins to play together, the chemistry will come. Case in point, first game and first time we're playing together, we had 14 on our bench versus 5 plus their 1 sub..........err, we lost horribly......

They were not better by any huge means, just a team that had been playing together for some time, and they knew their positions.
We went over positional stuff in practice, but once the game started it all went out the window.

Maximum Cheddar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2011, 10:06 AM
  #9
Maximum Cheddar
Registered User
 
Maximum Cheddar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subnordi View Post
What my team did was try to have a line combo of Skill/Size/Speed, worked great
I actually really like this idea but I don't think it would work for this team. 4 of the weaker players have low skill, are slow, and they are all tiny. But I do like the idea and may fashion the roster after this method the best I can.

Maximum Cheddar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2011, 01:55 PM
  #10
jsykes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NoVa
Posts: 891
vCash: 500
Do the pros put one star on each of the four lines with "checkers" in order to balance lines?

No.

You put your best players together to give them the best chance of performing and scoring goals. You then use your less skilled players as "checking" lines or simply lines that play their position and good defense and try to keep from getting scored on. If they do this, they will eventually get chances as well.

We've done this more recently on one of my teams and it works. One line is very strong, gets lots of chances and scores goals. Our other two are decent, we play good position, keep scoring chances down and every now and then get some good chances and even score from time to time.

Look at the pros. Skilled players together and not so skilled players together.

When you put your skilled players with less skilled players, the line can only be as strong as the weakest player on the line.

jsykes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2011, 06:55 AM
  #11
Jarick
Doing Nothing
 
Jarick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Paul, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 25,036
vCash: 500
I would match up players based on speed and ability to play with others. On D we like to pair good and bad players...you don't want two guys running around aimlessly.

Jarick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2011, 08:47 AM
  #12
Wilch
Unregistered User
 
Wilch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Under your bed
Country: Taiwan
Posts: 10,716
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsykes View Post
Do the pros put one star on each of the four lines with "checkers" in order to balance lines?

No.

You put your best players together to give them the best chance of performing and scoring goals. You then use your less skilled players as "checking" lines or simply lines that play their position and good defense and try to keep from getting scored on. If they do this, they will eventually get chances as well.

We've done this more recently on one of my teams and it works. One line is very strong, gets lots of chances and scores goals. Our other two are decent, we play good position, keep scoring chances down and every now and then get some good chances and even score from time to time.

Look at the pros. Skilled players together and not so skilled players together.

When you put your skilled players with less skilled players, the line can only be as strong as the weakest player on the line.
Sounds like you're just playing on a stacked team.

Generally it's tough to allocate the lines in leagues with wider talent spread or on weaker teams in general.

Wilch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2011, 07:00 PM
  #13
jsykes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NoVa
Posts: 891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilch View Post
Sounds like you're just playing on a stacked team.

Generally it's tough to allocate the lines in leagues with wider talent spread or on weaker teams in general.
Not at all. We're a B team with about one line worth of B players and most of the players would not be out of place in a C league.

We lost most of our games and finished in last place trying to "balance" lines. When we did what I'm saying above, we won 4 of our 5 last games and played the first place team (and eventual league champs) to a 3-1 loss in the playoffs.

Unless you have guys that just plain should be no where near your league, it should work. Our good line would get chances and our others would work hard and try to keep the puck out of our own net.

It worked and will work most of the time.

jsykes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2011, 07:08 PM
  #14
Stickmata
Registered User
 
Stickmata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,489
vCash: 500
I would stack your top O line with your best players then mix a line then have a line of weak players. Make sure the weaker players focus on defensive positioning so they don't give up a goal. I would split your D, matching strong and weak on every line though.

I play on teams where I am in both camps. On the really strong team where I'm a weaker player, I focus on backchecking hard and being defensively responsible, knowing that I'm at a speed disadvantage to the better players. I chip in a few goals here and there throughout the season, but my role is to chew up minutes and keep the other team off the board. On that team, I gauge my play solely on +/-, not whether I score at all. I've found that even though I'm at a huge skill disadvantage, I can add a lot of value defensively and help the team that way. That's what your weaker players should be thinking about IMO. A crappy player that skates hard and knows where to be can still help the team.

Stickmata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 08:14 AM
  #15
Dr Van Nostrand
Banned
 
Dr Van Nostrand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 901
vCash: 500
Fast - passer - physical
physical - passer - fast
fast - physical - passer

Dr Van Nostrand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2011, 09:43 AM
  #16
Jarick
Doing Nothing
 
Jarick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Paul, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 25,036
vCash: 500
Yeah that's what we did last year. Stack the top line then put a fast skater on each of the other lines who can play some kind of D.

Matching up players who play well with others and can pass is a good idea too. I suck at using my linemates and tend to want to get the puck, burn up ice, and get a shot on net, so when I play with similar players, we're less productive. I like playing with guys who are my speed and like to pass since all I want to do is shoot and score goals.

Jarick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2011, 10:37 PM
  #17
Rink Bum
Registered User
 
Rink Bum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 34
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Cheddar View Post
We went over positional stuff in practice, but once the game started it all went out the window.
LOL! Sounds all too familiar to me. Although, we did get better near the last few games of the season.

Rink Bum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2011, 02:09 AM
  #18
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
 
RandV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,645
vCash: 50
Are you expecting a full team for every game? With my team, which has started to round out a bit better after two years but being a mixed group certainly struggled with that problem, we always seemed to do best when we had 8 forwards show up. We'd put our two best players at center to rotate and have 3 pairs at wing. I know from experience that as a beginner LW/RW is by far the easiest position to play, and it makes a world of difference playing with an experienced center playing.

So as an arm chair coach you probably have the right idea with the dmen as putting the two inexperienced guys together would likely be a disaster. For the forwards though I'd say your best bet is to put 3 good players down the middle, take the remaining 2 good players as the first players (and if you really want to win make them the PP unit). Partner up the remaining 4 poor players as a wingers and get them to stay on the point in your own end and gradually learn how to get the puck out and dump & chase or chip it into the middle for the center to pick up and gain the zone, and crash the net in the offensive end. It may be a struggle to even get a shot on net but if the puck is always moving up and down the ice the other team is less likely to score.

This is basically how my initiation from 1 year in a beginners division in one league to the upper tier division in another league went. 2 years later I actually have pretty good chemistry with the guy I always played with that first year, when we'd be lucky to get a shot on net during a game.

RandV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2011, 12:47 PM
  #19
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
I essentially agree with RandV

I'll give you my perspective as an intermediate level men's league player on balancing lines etc. Skating for ~8yrs., but only playing forward for 3 yrs.

I can do very little out there with two lower level/novice type forwards beside me. They can't keep up, make an accurate outlet pass to hit me in stride through the neutral zone, positioning is horrible etc. I can score in the league I play in so I figure I'm kind of wasted on a line like that. If I were coach I would put another slower/lower level player out with them and cut our looses. Perhaps if I were an advanced player I could burn 2-3 guys on my own and the line would still be productive, but I'm not or at least not yet.

I don't think the players on a line all have to be able to skate at the same speed etc., but I do think they should be at a similar skill level overall. Match better players on the top lines and give them more ice time. I guess that could be an issue especially with d-men. Match your worse two together and they might get scorched so I guess it depends, but at least with your top forward line they all have to be in the top 4 or 5 forwards on the team IMO. It's the way it's done in every level of hockey I know of. Blair Betts doesn't play with Briere or Giroux.

Guffaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2011, 03:43 PM
  #20
nullterm
Registered User
 
nullterm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,558
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subnordi View Post
What my team did was try to have a line combo of Skill/Size/Speed, worked great
One team i played on did this and worked great. Was on the size line and we had great chemistry. We'd start by getting the puck deep and then keep the puck moving along the boards. Then have one guy in the slot or just take it to the net. Nothing fancy or fast, just grinding it out to create scoring opportunities and just make simple plays defensively.

nullterm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2011, 09:58 PM
  #21
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
One team i played on did this and worked great. Was on the size line and we had great chemistry. We'd start by getting the puck deep and then keep the puck moving along the boards. Then have one guy in the slot or just take it to the net. Nothing fancy or fast, just grinding it out to create scoring opportunities and just make simple plays defensively.
Skill/Size/Speed is great , but again I think the players need to be on similar levels. A guy built like a linebacker with no hockey sense or ability doesn't do the other two much good. I think good players need to be paired with good players.

Are most of you guys playing in league's where the skill level of the players is pretty consistent? Maybe my viewpoint is skewed because the talent is so varied in our league. We have ~35yr. old players that played NCAA D1/Junior A and are still at a high level and on the flip side 50 yr. olds that have only been skating for a few years so it's all over the place.

Guffaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2011, 01:40 PM
  #22
JoeCool16
Registered User
 
JoeCool16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,035
vCash: 500
I'm pretty terrible at hockey and have only been playing for a couple seasons, skating for about a year before that. I've tried it both ways and they can both be successful.

If you're playing with two guys who are bad or just learning, then the one "pro" should try simple, safe passes to the other players while trying to control the play. The guys that aren't as good should be aware that it's ok to make mistakes and not seize up when passes come. The worst thing that could happen is for the good player to play as if he's with forwards on his level. He'll probably end up looking as lost out there as the other two are.

If you're going all 3 bad, then give them a defensive role. I loved that. We really studied up defensive positioning and ended up being the best +/- line on our team, despite only scoring once every couple games. You learn a lot about hockey playing a defensive game and it'll develop you as a player.

Either way, I think you can make a successful team. Just play a simple game and make sure each line knows their role until chemistry starts to develop.

JoeCool16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2011, 02:18 PM
  #23
Maximum Cheddar
Registered User
 
Maximum Cheddar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCool16 View Post
I'm pretty terrible at hockey and have only been playing for a couple seasons, skating for about a year before that. I've tried it both ways and they can both be successful.

If you're playing with two guys who are bad or just learning, then the one "pro" should try simple, safe passes to the other players while trying to control the play. The guys that aren't as good should be aware that it's ok to make mistakes and not seize up when passes come. The worst thing that could happen is for the good player to play as if he's with forwards on his level. He'll probably end up looking as lost out there as the other two are.

If you're going all 3 bad, then give them a defensive role. I loved that. We really studied up defensive positioning and ended up being the best +/- line on our team, despite only scoring once every couple games. You learn a lot about hockey playing a defensive game and it'll develop you as a player.

Either way, I think you can make a successful team. Just play a simple game and make sure each line knows their role until chemistry starts to develop.
Funny you should mention that. The other game I took 3 of the weaker players that I thought might be a good checking line and put them together. One is good position wise. One is tenacious in his puck pursuit and one slaps it out once he gets it. The result? We lost 3 - 0. But the checking line was not scored on and had some of the best chances in the game. We have however been shutout 2 out of 3 games. Anyone know how to jump start an offence?

Maximum Cheddar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2011, 02:44 PM
  #24
nullterm
Registered User
 
nullterm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,558
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Skill/Size/Speed is great , but again I think the players need to be on similar levels. A guy built like a linebacker with no hockey sense or ability doesn't do the other two much good. I think good players need to be paired with good players.

Are most of you guys playing in league's where the skill level of the players is pretty consistent? Maybe my viewpoint is skewed because the talent is so varied in our league. We have ~35yr. old players that played NCAA D1/Junior A and are still at a high level and on the flip side 50 yr. olds that have only been skating for a few years so it's all over the place.
The league is pretty wide, but fairly consistent in each division.

We werent linebackers. Just above average regarding size, or atleast able to dig our feet in and not get push off the puck. Great to have that experience playing D now, as I may not have the speed or skill of guys I defend against, but I do know how to keep body position on them to shut down.

nullterm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2011, 07:29 PM
  #25
Guffaw
Registered User
 
Guffaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Drexel Hill PA
Country: United States
Posts: 495
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
The league is pretty wide, but fairly consistent in each division.

We werent linebackers. Just above average regarding size, or atleast able to dig our feet in and not get push off the puck. Great to have that experience playing D now, as I may not have the speed or skill of guys I defend against, but I do know how to keep body position on them to shut down.
I understand. Just saying the speed/size/skill formula requires a certain level of competency from all 3. A really big guy that sucks probably doesn't belong on the top line. Just as a guy with alot of speed, but no hockey ability doesn't either.

I find that if you put 3 of our top 4-5 players on a line the puck wont leave the opponents zone. Put them all on different lines and it might not get into the opponents zone. Just an observation

Guffaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.