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Old
09-19-2011, 11:51 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
Agree 100% that he is not a 1st liner and that he is overpaid.

Were his points and salary helped by others? Of course. Did Guy Lafleur and Jacques Lemaire help Steve Shutt out just a little bit? Wayne Gretzky have just a smidgeon to do with Jari Kurri having a HHOF career? Yup. Lots of players get raises as the result of being on winning teams, or racking up points playing with good players. It is incompetent management that can't tell the difference between a star player and a role player that makes the role players rich.
Thanks for the reply but it doesn't seem as if we disagree. Just that your examples confirm my supposition.

Did Steve Shutt and his agent demand a contract that would make him the highest paid player on the team? No. Did Jari Kurri's? No.

Horcoff and his agent were looking for this.

I can think of few players here that had their salary so skewed by the contributions of others.
I agree with the bolded.

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09-19-2011, 12:03 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks for the reply but it doesn't seem as if we disagree. Just that your examples confirm my supposition.

Did Steve Shutt and his agent demand a contract that would make him the highest paid player on the team? No. Did Jari Kurri's? No.

Horcoff and his agent were looking for this.

I can think of few players here that had their salary so skewed by the contributions of others.
I agree with the bolded.
Wouldn't you be looking for the same? I know i would be. He just came off a career year putting up 50 points in 53 games, 2 years earlier he had 73 in 79. He had 1 year left on his contract and the Oilers wanted him to sign an extension almost a year before his contract was set to expire. I'd be asking for the maximum i could get as well.

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Old
09-19-2011, 12:12 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
Wouldn't you be looking for the same? I know i would be. He just came off a career year putting up 50 points in 53 games, 2 years earlier he had 73 in 79. He had 1 year left on his contract and the Oilers wanted him to sign an extension almost a year before his contract was set to expire. I'd be asking for the maximum i could get as well.
These results were extremely dependent on who he was skating with.

But other than that segment in time there was nothing in Horcoffs career to suggest that Horcoff had this type of offensive production in him, or that he was the catalyst for the production that was occurring. Linemates like Hemsky and Smyth were clearly straws stirring the drink.

Not so clear to Lowe though.

That said the biggest argument in Horc's favor is the SEL year. Really I have no idea what happened there or how. not sure how he had that kind of production there.

I've been on every side of the Horcoff argument and have argued on his behalf before. But these last couple years especially he's lost me as a supporter.

The "tries hard" and "good work ethic" isn't even there anymore. I can basically point out the games where Horc is bringing it or where he's floating like pos.

Horc is the classic example of wrecking effort with big big money. He was a hardworking player most of the time before the contract. Soon as it was signed he declined.

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Old
09-19-2011, 12:43 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
These results were extremely dependent on who he was skating with.

But other than that segment in time there was nothing in Horcoffs career to suggest that Horcoff had this type of offensive production in him, or that he was the catalyst for the production that was occurring. Linemates like Hemsky and Smyth were clearly straws stirring the drink.

Not so clear to Lowe though.

That said the biggest argument in Horc's favor is the SEL year. Really I have no idea what happened there or how. not sure how he had that kind of production there.

I've been on every side of the Horcoff argument and have argued on his behalf before. But these last couple years especially he's lost me as a supporter.

The "tries hard" and "good work ethic" isn't even there anymore. I can basically point out the games where Horc is bringing it or where he's floating like pos.

Horc is the classic example of wrecking effort with big big money. He was a hardworking player most of the time before the contract. Soon as it was signed he declined.
So blame K-Lowe, not Horcoff. People have to stop expecting Horcoff to be a $5.5M player. Take him for what he is as a good 3rd line center who is called on to play top 6 minutes from time to time/too often. Its not his fault that the Oilers don't have a #1 C and that he is the closest thing they have.

To say that Horcoff had no effect on his good seasons and that it was all Smyth and Hemsky is a bit or a stretch I think. I'll agree that he could not have put up those kind of #'s with out them and if you had to give someone a $5.5M long term contract it should have been Smyth. But you don't put up 50 in 53 and 73 in 79 just because your line mates are good. You need to have some offensive skill to finish the plays that they present to you.

I think the biggest difference between Horcoff before his contract and after his contract is his shoulder. Before he got hurt he could shoot the puck. He never had the nicest of the hardest shot but he could get a quick one timer off pretty good. That's how I remember him scoring most of his goals in 08. When he came back he couldn't shoot the puck to save his life, its a good thing he had his contract to save his career.

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Old
09-19-2011, 12:56 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
So blame K-Lowe, not Horcoff. People have to stop expecting Horcoff to be a $5.5M player. Take him for what he is as a good 3rd line center who is called on to play top 6 minutes from time to time/too often. Its not his fault that the Oilers don't have a #1 C and that he is the closest thing they have.

To say that Horcoff had no effect on his good seasons and that it was all Smyth and Hemsky is a bit or a stretch I think. I'll agree that he could not have put up those kind of #'s with out them and if you had to give someone a $5.5M long term contract it should have been Smyth. But you don't put up 50 in 53 and 73 in 79 just because your line mates are good. You need to have some offensive skill to finish the plays that they present to you.

I think the biggest difference between Horcoff before his contract and after his contract is his shoulder. Before he got hurt he could shoot the puck. He never had the nicest of the hardest shot but he could get a quick one timer off pretty good. That's how I remember him scoring most of his goals in 08. When he came back he couldn't shoot the puck to save his life, its a good thing he had his contract to save his career.
We don't disagree on too much here.

As far as the shot however a lot of that was predicated on some set pieces where Horc finished. Plays that were scouted and pretty much dried up or that he fails to convert much anymore.

Horc isn't a natural goal scorer. He had the shootout thing going for awhile as well and can pick a spot but with not much velocity. He needs a pretty good screen and some luck. Unlike a guy like RNH who can shoot off the screen in his sleep a guy like Horc is just lucky when the puck finds its way. He really doesn't have the timing down on those plays which contributes to him drying up.

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09-19-2011, 01:31 PM
  #106
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If things are a train wreck for the Oilers this season and Hall is having a good year I'm all for giving him the captaincy mid-season. Although that's what I would like to see I'd doubt that would ever happen. If the team is really poor again and Horcoff is plagued by injuries again I could see them re-assessing this situation come next off-season.

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Old
09-19-2011, 01:37 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
I think he is not a good captain, he is not an example of a player that the young guys should aspire to be and though he can try and say all the right things he has no real cred to say those things other than to show up at camp in shape.

His forced presence on the team for the next four years is going to mean some other more deserving player will be pushed down the depth chart or kept out of the league.
Not sure what skills you are looking for in a captain. Based on who the Oilers had left after Moreau left, I thought he was the best choice. Hard worker, strong character, have heard nothing negative about his influence with the younger players. Only positives. A captain is supposed to show the players how to be a pro. How to prepare for a game. How to act away from the rink. Create a positive dressing room atmosphere. Without being in the room myself obviously, and just based on what I have heard, the Oilers room was a night and day difference last year from the year previous. Again, we obviously differ here on our opinion, but I think Horcoff is a good fit for a short term captain for this team. One more year perhaps, then time to pass the mantle. I don't think he will be here for the full length of his contract.


Last edited by bellagiobob: 09-19-2011 at 01:55 PM.
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Old
09-19-2011, 01:47 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
So blame K-Lowe, not Horcoff. People have to stop expecting Horcoff to be a $5.5M player. Take him for what he is as a good 3rd line center who is called on to play top 6 minutes from time to time/too often. Its not his fault that the Oilers don't have a #1 C and that he is the closest thing they have.

To say that Horcoff had no effect on his good seasons and that it was all Smyth and Hemsky is a bit or a stretch I think. I'll agree that he could not have put up those kind of #'s with out them and if you had to give someone a $5.5M long term contract it should have been Smyth. But you don't put up 50 in 53 and 73 in 79 just because your line mates are good. You need to have some offensive skill to finish the plays that they present to you.

I think the biggest difference between Horcoff before his contract and after his contract is his shoulder. Before he got hurt he could shoot the puck. He never had the nicest of the hardest shot but he could get a quick one timer off pretty good. That's how I remember him scoring most of his goals in 08. When he came back he couldn't shoot the puck to save his life, its a good thing he had his contract to save his career.
He should still be able to take 1500 faceoffs a season and put up 30 goals if he is making over $5MM/yr though? He must not be trying hard enough.

I think we should start a rally in front of Rexall and demand that Horcoff take a drop in pay and hand over the "C". Come one....who's with me?

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Old
09-19-2011, 02:24 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
As usual, posters like to take a point, blow it up to ridiculous proportions to skirt the issue. Public flogging? No. Actually being accountable for ones play? Yes.

Remember this guy is the captain and is 'mentoring' all the kids. I would rather have a mentor that is accountable for his own poor play and has a total desire to win and believes in his team mates totally. (Not to mention his play on the ice which is as soft as butter.)
When you say accountable, what precisely do you mean?

From the thrust of your comments so far, it seems you want a public admission of guilt, a media mea culpa. Why? Will that change anything? Does he or any other player in his position owe you an apology or an explanation?

What is it about this meaningless theatre of post-game comments that you crave so?

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Old
09-19-2011, 02:26 PM
  #110
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Horcoff was the best option after Moreau left. He is very mature and sets a good example for the kids. That is he isn't out at the bar doing drugs and hurting his rep like some guys were in the past.
He is well known in the community.
He works hard, although not as hard as he used to.
He has some experience in pressure situations at this level. (The most recent cup run, and world championships)
He is actually pretty good at talking to the media, as I felt the OP's quote displayed.
He knows the hockey environment in Edmonton.

However all that said he is a good short term captain. I would like to see him with the C, Smyth, Whitney, and Hall with A's. Next year that should change.


Last edited by iddmitch: 09-19-2011 at 02:32 PM.
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Old
09-19-2011, 02:30 PM
  #111
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Hockeycentral has him as a a plaguing ankle injury. Weird oiler brass has only talked about hemsky and Whitney. Lol, wonder if they're trying to shop him to LA

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